CAF MK5 Rough Riding

[Will Mitchell]

Is poor ride any indication of potential safety issues or is this purely a matter of passenger comfort?

 

[ChrisnPat]

Hi, just joined the forum, as I have been looking on the internet for comments regarding Mk5A coaches, as my wife, and myself, have noted the terrible ride quality of the coaches being used on the Manchester to Scarborough line.

We travelled just after the New Year, (2019/20) from Manchester Victoria to Scarborough on an early evening service, slightly disappointed when a Class 185 arrived, as we were looking forward to travel on the new Nova3.

We have travelled many times on a Class 185, from Stalybridge, (good reason to go from there, is the Buffet bar!!). The journey was on time, and not noticeably uncomfortable or noisy, as we have, or haven't noticed in the past.

However, on our return journey from Scarborough back to Stalybridge, we had a Nova 3 with the Mk5A coaches,

I don't think we had got a far as Malton, when my wife commented on the noise, clunking and thumping in the coach. This is something that neither of us had noticed or commented on before, and we have used this route many times over the years. Not only the noise, and uncomfortable ride, the seats are very uncomfortable also, the backrests seem too 'vertical' or straight, to relax into, and the squabs, well, we wondered if any padding had been put in them.

We couldn't find the charging sockets for love nor money, it wasn't until the train manager pointed out their position, with a raised eyebrow, as if to say, 'you're not the first to ask that', that we could use them, but you'll need eyeballs on your fingers to get the USB plug in!!

From what has always been a 'normal' journey, enjoying the scenery and general train travel, became a moan about the quality of a brand new train, that we had been looking forward to travel on.

We will approach travelling on a TPE Nova 3's a lot less excitedly, once the 'all clear' is given after Covid19.

Never have I had cause to search out other passengers comments about a train journey before, but you guys are of the same mind as my wife and I.

Who signs these things off, to think that these coaches are acceptable for travel in this day and age.

I hope that our next journey to Scarborough is on a Class 185...but alas, I think that is wishful thinking...

There..said my piece..moan over!!

 

[hexagon789]

Hi, just joined the forum, as I have been looking on the internet for comments regarding Mk5A coaches, as my wife, and myself, have noted the terrible ride quality of the coaches being used on the Manchester to Scarborough line.

We travelled just after the New Year, (2019/20) from Manchester Victoria to Scarborough on an early evening service, slightly disappointed when a Class 185 arrived, as we were looking forward to travel on the new Nova3.

We have travelled many times on a Class 185, from Stalybridge, (good reason to go from there, is the Buffet bar!!). The journey was on time, and not noticeably uncomfortable or noisy, as we have, or haven't noticed in the past.

However, on our return journey from Scarborough back to Stalybridge, we had a Nova 3 with the Mk5A coaches,

I don't think we had got a far as Malton, when my wife commented on the noise, clunking and thumping in the coach. This is something that neither of us had noticed or commented on before, and we have used this route many times over the years. Not only the noise, and uncomfortable ride, the seats are very uncomfortable also, the backrests seem too 'vertical' or straight, to relax into, and the squabs, well, we wondered if any padding had been put in them.

We couldn't find the charging sockets for love nor money, it wasn't until the train manager pointed out their position, with a raised eyebrow, as if to say, 'you're not the first to ask that', that we could use them, but you'll need eyeballs on your fingers to get the USB plug in!!

From what has always been a 'normal' journey, enjoying the scenery and general train travel, became a moan about the quality of a brand new train, that we had been looking forward to travel on.

We will approach travelling on a TPE Nova 3's a lot less excitedly, once the 'all clear' is given after Covid19.

Never have I had cause to search out other passengers comments about a train journey before, but you guys are of the same mind as my wife and I.

Who signs these things off, to think that these coaches are acceptable for travel in this day and age.

I hope that our next journey to Scarborough is on a Class 185...but alas, I think that is wishful thinking...

There..said my piece..moan over!!

Some reports from just before lockdown suggested that both the Mk5 and 397s were riding much better generally as though components had bedded in and things had generally softened up a bit

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened for @Clansman to add an update.

 

[Clansman]

Had a trip on the sleeper last week, and it was the worst I've experienced the usual rattling about infamous with CAF stock.

Seems like any attempts, if any, to improve the ride quality has been given up on...

Two videos below to show how awful it was - filmed between Ladybank and Kirkcaldy which is relatively smooth on any other stock.

Watch zomgw2 | Streamable

Watch this video on Streamable.

streamable.com

Watch v8b98f | Streamable

Watch this video on Streamable.

streamable.com

CAF have messed up big time with these. 2 years on and and they have seemed to have gotten worse. Night and day compared to Mk3s and Mk2s, which for a 40+ year age difference is astonishing.

 

[Ribbleman]

Just as bad a ride as the TPE versions and Northern’s 195s and 331s. Were these bogies chosen on price? It does not seem that any investigations are being made with a view to improving matters. It is a poor show when modern stock cannot match that that was produced in the 1960s/1970s. The situation proves the need for deeper research and for trials of prototypes before production runs are given the green light.

Are these bogies with their jittery ride qualities likely to be causing increased damage to the track, despite their lighter weight?

 

[davetheguard]

Two videos below to show how awful it was - filmed between Ladybank and Kirkcaldy which is relatively smooth on any other stock.

That is truly appalling - surely no one would ever manage to actually get any sleep on such a train.

If this is typical, I'd be surprised if they get ANY repeat customers? Looks like a good way to kill the service.

 

[PG]

Are these bogies with their jittery ride qualities likely to be causing increased damage to the track, despite their lighter weight?

You'd think so, I guess instrumentation would be able to show that if anyone was bothered enough to arrange it?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Those videos are of the tables, not the beds. The way tables are constructed will always tend to exaggerate vibrations like that - plus they don't have matresses on.

I have used the Mk 5 beds and found them perfectly acceptable - and yes, I was in the end of the carriage.

 

[trover]

The bumpy 195/331/397 together with their rock hard seats with minimal padding are just terrible for journeys of 2+ hours. Either bring us back proper seats like those on Avanti / original 158 or improve the suspension.

 

[MCR247]

Isn’t it usually best practice to secure tables to both the wall and the floor? I seem to recall class 180 tables have a similar issue.

 

[185]

Was on a 331 tonight and did wonder if some poor chap from the factory in Spain was trapped under the floor ...and was banging with a wrench to get out... Meeester Fawlty!!

Seriously though.. what is the fix? Is there a modification to make it go away? Are they under warranty? Will this silliness carry on when the TFW/WM sets arrive?

 

[507020]

Was on a 331 tonight and did wonder if some poor chap from the factory in Spain was trapped under the floor ...and was banging with a wrench to get out... Meeester Fawlty!!

Seriously though.. what is the fix? Is there a modification to make it go away? Are they under warranty? Will this silliness carry on when the TFW/WM sets arrive?

I suspect the response from CAF when tasked with producing a new bogie design for British railways was another of Manuel’s utterings… I know nothing! I forget everything I know nothing!

New imported stock having lost all of the refinement that was the result of the research and development of BR bogie and suspension designs.

 

[Clansman]

Those videos are of the tables, not the beds. The way tables are constructed will always tend to exaggerate vibrations like that - plus they don't have matresses on.

I have used the Mk 5 beds and found them perfectly acceptable - and yes, I was in the end of the carriage.

The fixtures do a play a major part, I agree. But the clunking of the bogies every couple of seconds makes this worse in open settings like the lounge car.

As for the berths it is certainly quieter than the lounge ambience, but again the fixtures cannot withstand the clunking.

For example the berth doors are notorious for rattling, as well as the folding table under the sink and the coathangers. I find myself wedging them with socks or gloves just to make this quieter. Was never an issue with the Mk3s - no clunking and no loud external noise of the air breezing past the window at 80mph.

The wood effect walls between the normal sized windows also have a tendancy to rattle. Again just a poor final product excacerbated by inconsistent ride quality.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have never had trouble with comfort on the sleepers, but have witnessed some rough riding in the lounge like @Clansman demonstrates. You probably feel it much less in bed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn’t it usually best practice to secure tables to both the wall and the floor? I seem to recall class 180 tables have a similar issue.

The opposite. They and the seats are secured only to the floor, as the floor "floats" separately from the wall to provide engine noise deadening. A bit like a domestic laminate floor which typically sits unsecured on top of a layer of foam underlay.

 

[PG]

The opposite. They and the seats are secured only to the floor, as the floor "floats" separately from the wall to provide engine noise deadening.

Err, ok for a DMU, but the Mk5 hasn't got an engine underneath...

 

[modernrail]

Was on a 331 tonight and did wonder if some poor chap from the factory in Spain was trapped under the floor ...and was banging with a wrench to get out... Meeester Fawlty!!

Seriously though.. what is the fix? Is there a modification to make it go away? Are they under warranty? Will this silliness carry on when the TFW/WM sets arrive?

Bit racist? Definitely a little 1970’s fag ash.

The thing that confuses me is that their trains seem to ride like a dream in Spain. Yet the new stuff here is awful. So are the 185s at speed on TPE in my view though. They really lurch on corners.

I am not sure blame is fully with CAF. I suspect this is more down to having no continuous improvement loop at all any more for UK trains. Management teams just place ad hoc orders based on economics and window dressing. Our Government doesn’t really have a clue about how infrastructure actually works or how you push it on into a better place. It is so utterly embarrassing for a country that has such a heritage in it. As with lots of things, we just need to get our own house in order and I suspect that means getting rid of a Government that doesn’t know it’s **** from its elbow and manages to be incredibly arrogant about its utter lack of ability.

The standard response of this Government is to expect ‘the market’ to do it.’ That is illiterate, naive, stupid, money wasting behaviour that ignores the important role Government plays in coordination. Tories confuse successful coordination with ridiculous, short sighted, power grabbing, tribal, money and time wasting, micromanagement. Hence we have spent millions on sleeper train stock that doesn’t fit the bill yet the DfT are shafting TfL at every opportunity because they are too childish to work with a Labour mayor, wasted loads of our cash on flat cloth and under the current worst cabinet in history will no doubt cause immense damage to the railways in general in the transition from the failed Tory privatisation project to the inevitable nonsense that will be GBR.

They are currently insisting slashing services because we are only at 85% of pre pandemic travel (which is actually a great recovery). Meanwhile the roads are gridlocked, the market is there. Just get some adverts and offers out and get people back on the railways.

I hope the new sleeper trains in Europe are much better thought through and I am sure they will be.

 

[507 001]

One thing I’ve noticed with the Mk5s is that they have developed an incredible groan from the brakes at low speed which sends vibrations through the saloon.

All in all they feel very, very cheap.

 

[Mordac]

Bit racist? Definitely a little 1970’s fag ash.

The thing that confuses me is that their trains seem to ride like a dream in Spain. Yet the new stuff here is awful. So are the 185s at speed on TPE in my view though. They really lurch on corners.

I am not sure blame is fully with CAF. I suspect this is more down to having no continuous improvement loop at all any more for UK trains. Management teams just place ad hoc orders based on economics and window dressing. Our Government doesn’t really have a clue about how infrastructure actually works or how you push it on into a better place. It is so utterly embarrassing for a country that has such a heritage in it. As with lots of things, we just need to get our own house in order and I suspect that means getting rid of a Government that doesn’t know it’s **** from its elbow and manages to be incredibly arrogant about its utter lack of ability.

The standard response of this Government is to expect ‘the market’ to do it.’ That is illiterate, naive, stupid, money wasting behaviour that ignores the important role Government plays in coordination. Tories confuse successful coordination with ridiculous, short sighted, power grabbing, tribal, money and time wasting, micromanagement. Hence we have spent millions on sleeper train stock that doesn’t fit the bill yet the DfT are shafting TfL at every opportunity because they are too childish to work with a Labour mayor, wasted loads of our cash on flat cloth and under the current worst cabinet in history will no doubt cause immense damage to the railways in general in the transition from the failed Tory privatisation project to the inevitable nonsense that will be GBR.

They are currently insisting slashing services because we are only at 85% of pre pandemic travel (which is actually a great recovery). Meanwhile the roads are gridlocked, the market is there. Just get some adverts and offers out and get people back on the railways.

I hope the new sleeper trains in Europe are much better thought through and I am sure they will be.

They ride pretty well in Northern Ireland too, although I think those units don't have the inside frame bogies we have this side of the water.

 

[modernrail]

One thing I’ve noticed with the Mk5s is that they have developed an incredible groan from the brakes at low speed which sends vibrations through the saloon.

All in all they feel very, very cheap.

Cheap or badly adapted to their circumstances? There is quite a big difference.

CAF obviously can make good trains. They make trains that can go faster than 99% of the UK network would ever need that are perfectly good. I suspect a lot of this is bad procurement by British staff who didn’t know what they were doing, rather than a train manufacturer that makes high speed trains suddenly forgetting how to make trains.

Look inside the Northern units. Almost every design choice is poor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Look inside the Northern units. Almost every design choice is poor.

It'll be interesting to ride 196s and 197s to see if WMT and TfW have made similar poor choices or if it's just the case that the underlying unit is a poor design (for which CAF would indeed more be to blame).

 

[greyman42]

Bit racist? Definitely a little 1970’s fag ash.

It's called a sense of humour! It made me laugh anyway.

 

[Spartacus]

I'll be honest and after riding on TPE's Mk5as and 185s recently and I really couldn't say which is better/worse. What I think makes a difference is that the the engine noise and vibrations on the 185, which you obviously don't get on a Mk5a, really distracts from the other movements, but when you concentrate, or are in an unpowered 185 rear vehicle, it's easier to tell.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'll be honest and after riding on TPE's Mk5as and 185s recently and I really couldn't say which is better/worse. What I think makes a difference is that the the engine noise and vibrations on the 185, which you obviously don't get on a Mk5a, really distracts from the other movements, but when you concentrate, or are in an unpowered 185 rear vehicle, it's easier to tell.

I've done Mk5s once and I don't recall the ride being that bad. I do however recall the awful window alignment in Standard and the tiny windows. The 397 is a much nicer piece of kit as far as CAF goes.

 

[modernrail]

It'll be interesting to ride 196s and 197s to see if WMT and TfW have made similar poor choices or if it's just the case that the underlying unit is a poor design (for which CAF would indeed more be to blame).

Agreed. I suspect the interiors will be far better as northern take the naff spanner for terrible interiors, badly cleaned, every time. However, I suspect the underlying issues will still show up. For me that is ride and odd noises. I do wonder if the weight saving bogie designs are at fault. That plus our pretty awful track (in many but not all places) might not marry well. I would also guess, from many many hours using trains around the UK with my laptop out working and a coffee at my side that the general track condition is a lot worse in northern land than down south. It just seems to be way more patchy and the junctions always seem rougher whatever the stock. Older average age?

It's called a sense of humour! It made me laugh anyway.

It was a dig at the Spanish suggesting their engineers are rubbish and lightweight rather than the hard working professional people they more likely are. I can think of much better jokes. We all have our tastes though!

 

[driverd]

Cheap or badly adapted to their circumstances? There is quite a big difference.

Entirely agree here. The inside frame bogies/suspension are likely the culprits. This is all down to systematic constraints of our rail network. The incentive for new stock procurement is, in essence, for it to be as light as possible and to thus reduce track access costs.

CAF obviously can make good trains. They make trains that can go faster than 99% of the UK network would ever need that are perfectly good. I suspect a lot of this is bad procurement by British staff who didn’t know what they were doing, rather than a train manufacturer that makes high speed trains suddenly forgetting how to make trains.

In honesty I do think this shows too. The UK trains aren't bad. The sleeper stock certainly has a feel of quality, even if the finish isn't fantastic. It's similar with the civity units. The design is a pretty good one, just the finish leaves something to be desired. I think CAF come in for a lot of criticism that really should be levelled at others.

Look inside the Northern units. Almost every design choice is poor.

Entirely disagree here - they're generally excellent units, especially compared to the alternatives on the northern network.

 

[modernrail]

Entirely agree here. The inside frame bogies/suspension are likely the culprits. This is all down to systematic constraints of our rail network. The incentive for new stock procurement is, in essence, for it to be as light as possible and to thus reduce track access costs.



In honesty I do think this shows too. The UK trains aren't bad. The sleeper stock certainly has a feel of quality, even if the finish isn't fantastic. It's similar with the civity units. The design is a pretty good one, just the finish leaves something to be desired. I think CAF come in for a lot of criticism that really should be levelled at others.



Entirely disagree here - they're generally excellent units, especially compared to the alternatives on the northern network.

Design as ever subjective and very much respect your opinion. I prefer to compare them with non-northern trains as the northern stock is so, so bad. I find the refreshed interior of a 30 year old SWT unit preferable to the brand new northern units. They dark car ends, black seat backs and seat choice make the whole thing feel super cheap and badly designed to me.

Meanwhile those refreshed SWT units seem to look as good as second new many years on. Whereas the black seat backs of the 197s will be etched with finest poetry before long. I have already seen a few examples. There should be a ‘poetry on northern’ book made when enough is accumulated.

I personally think grey seat backs and white walls are pretty important inside our restricted loading gauge size units, especially as we cram more people into less space. Otherwise it quickly starts to feel claustrophobic.

 

[AM9]

Entirely disagree here - they're generally excellent units, especially compared to the alternatives on the northern network.

Which Northern alternatives are you comparing the CAF stock with?

I do wonder if the weight saving bogie designs are at fault.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Inside frame bogies are the trend on trains now, with smaller wheels and shorter wheelbases to treat track even kinder. The problem is that they become critical designs because the sheer weight of conventional bogies tends to iron out higher frequency disturbances. Most inside designs in the UK work well, e.g. the Bombardier types on the non-tilting Voyagers/Meridians, the class 172 Turbostars and the class 345s.Then there's the City Desiro stock (class 700, 707 & 717) which ride well on pretty notorious track and at speed.
It seems that CAF put them on to meet the weight spec and appeal to the modern cosmetic design, - the problem is that they didn't take their engineering seriously, making them work well is not a trivial task.

 

[fgwrich]

Which Northern alternatives are you comparing the CAF stock with?


I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Inside frame bogies are the trend on trains now, with smaller wheels and shorter wheelbases to treat track even kinder. The problem is that they become critical designs because the sheer weight of conventional bogies tends to iron out higher frequency disturbances. Most inside designs in the UK work well, e.g. the Bombardier types on the non-tilting Voyagers/Meridians, the class 172 Turbostars and the class 345s.Then there's the City Desiro stock (class 700, 707 & 717) which ride well on pretty notorious track and at speed.
It seems that CAF put them on to meet the weight spec and appeal to the modern cosmetic design, - the problem is that they didn't take their engineering seriously, making them work well is not a trivial task.

This is pretty much my thoughts too - the inside frame bogies being the result of a lot of this poor riding. Sadly though, Bombardiers aren’t faultless either - I’ve encountered jittery riding on Voyagers and 172s, and they ride even worse when you get one with a wheel flat. Even the Hitachi lightweight bogies ride pretty badly, with those vehicles in the 80X sets seemingly feeling like they oscillate compared to those without.

I do agree about the Mk5 Groaning too. I wasn’t that impressed with the ride quality when I took the Caley Sleeper up to Glasgow last year, the occasional banging and jolting coming through to the cabin before being woken up by every short jointed track panel through Carnforth loops and Carlisle station - of course then adding to the now standard CAF rattling. I might see if I can add a video later this afternoon.