Caledonian Sleeper Class 92's

[43096]

Second that, really helpful, thanks Rob T.

I think you're right on which are in the better condition - can't imagine the two in Loughborough after they've finished overhauling/modifying/reinstating 12 other 92s there will have very much left in them at all!

One interesting thing I did notice (and wonder if anyone has an explanation for) - the 9 ex-SNCF 92s had (unsurprisingly!) SNCF cab-side logos on originally, whereas the ex-EPS ones in the majority of cases didn't.
(e.g. 046 [and 044] at Crewe IEMD when brand new https://flic.kr/p/o8qhdi (not mine) - some of the "EPS 7" did have reflective EPS cab-side logos added (e.g. 040 https://flic.kr/p/bzT6Se - not mine) not sure they all got these in the end and either way they were subsequently removed presumably once Nightstar was no more.)

92020 "Milton", though, has a small SNCF logo and a small Railfreight distribution logo - and would appear to have had this from new (or thereabouts). Given that it was in neither of these 'pools' was this because at some point if was a 'shared' loco, or some publicity-type thing to show the cross-channel collaboration of SNCF/BR? It was the first one handed over to EPS and used for the publicity shots at Waterloo on 01/02/95 so guessing the latter may be the reason.

92020 with both logos: https://flic.kr/p/f6VeWx (not mine)

They're actually still on, albeit very faded, as can be seen here in the latest pic of 92020 at Brush https://flic.kr/p/TLzSRL (again not mine)

Thanks in advance for any info on this one.

[Also found some info indicating the first 5x EPS locos bought by Eurotunnel in Feb 2007 were acquired for £2m, i.e. <10% of what they'd cost to build after adjusting for inflation). They were also still at Crewe in Nov 2007 (or at least 020 was) - so must've taken a little while for them to be moved to Loughborough by their new owners.]

I seem to recall that one of the EPS locos (92020 I think) was part of a formal handover to EPS at Waterloo International for which it received EPS branding on the cabside (where double arrows were on RfD machines and SNCF logos on their locos). Obviously this was removed, probably because the EPS name was no longer used.

 

[TimboM]

I seem to recall that one of the EPS locos (92020 I think) was part of a formal handover to EPS at Waterloo International for which it received EPS branding on the cabside (where double arrows were on RfD machines and SNCF logos on their locos). Obviously this was removed, probably because the EPS name was no longer used.

Yes, it was 020 (1st Feb 95).

I've managed to find a photo of it at Waterloo on that date (albeit from a distance) courtesy Dawlish Trains/Colin J Marsden: - http://www.dawlishtrains.com/class-73.html - scroll down the Class 73 page and it's on the 6th row, right-hand side. It would appear from this the EPS is on the left-hand cab-side (can just make it out I think), but no SNCF/RfD at this point. (The 92 wasn't able to run under its own power into Waterloo that day, so was hauled in by 47385 from North Pole, 73130 (in photo here) then came in and hauled 92020 back out to release the 47 from the buffers and then shunted the 92 back into position for the press call...!)

There's quite a few photos on Flickr of 92020 at the Crewe IEMD Open Day in May 97, where it doesn't have any EPS branding but has the SNCF/RfD mini-logos - in this particular shot it looks like there's a mark under the cab-side number where it's been (recently) removed? https://flic.kr/p/pyfVWP (not mine).

I believe some/all of the EPS ones were in a shared-use pool when Nightstar fell through/never took off, so I'm guessing somewhere in the intervening 2 years, the EPS was removed from 020 and the SNCF/RfD added.

 

[Rob T]

- Some of the "EPS 7" did have reflective EPS cab-side logos added (e.g. 040 https://flic.kr/p/bzT6Se - not mine) not sure they all got these in the end and either way they were subsequently removed presumably once Nightstar was no more.[/I]]

92040 is quite an interesting one. According to an old post in "another place", this loco has less than 1000 hours on the clock.

Apparently it was derailed shortly after delivery and then spent a long time at Crewe EMD where it was raided for spares. Eventually it was sent to Loughborough for repair.

Then, relatively shortly after it returned, all the EPS fleet were withdrawn!

 

[TimboM]

92040 is quite an interesting one. According to an old post in "another place", this loco has less than 1000 hours on the clock.

Apparently it was derailed shortly after delivery and then spent a long time at Crewe EMD where it was raided for spares. Eventually it was sent to Loughborough for repair.

Then, relatively shortly after it returned, all the EPS fleet were withdrawn!

I noticed it was in Loughborough in 2000 for a fair while when having a look at photos of it online earlier and thought it was a bit odd, given by then most of the other ones were probably sat in Crewe doing not a lot - and as you say it was then stored soon after. This explains it, thanks again.

If the 1,000 miles info is true, it's probably done more distance being towed/transported around between Loughborough/Crewe/Coquelles than it's done under it's own power!
That said, there are photos of it on at least one rail tour (Rugby-Crewe) in 2001 just before it was stored and at Dollands Moor in 1996, so might have mustered a few more than 1,000 miles?

 

[43096]

Yes, it was 020 (1st Feb 95).

I've managed to find a photo of it at Waterloo on that date (albeit from a distance) courtesy Dawlish Trains/Colin J Marsden: - http://www.dawlishtrains.com/class-73.html - scroll down the Class 73 page and it's on the 6th row, right-hand side. It would appear from this the EPS is on the left-hand cab-side (can just make it out I think), but no SNCF/RfD at this point. (The 92 wasn't able to run under its own power into Waterloo that day, so was hauled in by 47385 from North Pole, 73130 (in photo here) then came in and hauled 92020 back out to release the 47 from the buffers and then shunted the 92 back into position for the press call...!)

There's quite a few photos on Flickr of 92020 at the Crewe IEMD Open Day in May 97, where it doesn't have any EPS branding but has the SNCF/RfD mini-logos - in this particular shot it looks like there's a mark under the cab-side number where it's been (recently) removed? https://flic.kr/p/pyfVWP (not mine).

I believe some/all of the EPS ones were in a shared-use pool when Nightstar fell through/never took off, so I'm guessing somewhere in the intervening 2 years, the EPS was removed from 020 and the SNCF/RfD added.

Good find with that photo of 92020!

The plan was always for the RfD, EPS and SNCF machines to be used in a common pool for freight and Nightstar services. Other than branding the locos were identical. The concept of such a pool was a rarity by then in Britain with BR having gone down the sectorisation route with dedicated resources.

 

[TimboM]

Good find with that photo of 92020!

You'd have thought there'd have been LOADS of photos to find after all that effort put into the press launch. Evidently the interest in Nightstar from Day 1 wasn't great.

(Incidentally, I'm wondering if that 73 has the most attachments on its front end of any loco ever?! [https://flic.kr/p/LccKG4 - not mine])

The plan was always for the RfD, EPS and SNCF machines to be used in a common pool for freight and Nightstar services. Other than branding the locos were identical. The concept of such a pool was a rarity by then in Britain with BR having gone down the sectorisation route with dedicated resources.

All 46 were based at Crewe IEMD too I believe adding to the notion that in practice they were all one fleet.

 

[BRX]

(The 92 wasn't able to run under its own power into Waterloo that day, so was hauled in by 47385 from North Pole, 73130 (in photo here) then came in and hauled 92020 back out to release the 47 from the buffers and then shunted the 92 back into position for the press call...!)

A bit like that faked-up "arrival" of the first Yiwu-London service, with the gleaming DB 92 heading it up and pushing through the ribbon...being shoved from behind by a 66 of course seeing as there was neither any OHL or third rail in sight...

 

[TimboM]

A bit like that faked-up "arrival" of the first Yiwu-London service, with the gleaming DB 92 heading it up and pushing through the ribbon...being shoved from behind by a 66 of course seeing as there was neither any OHL or third rail in sight...

Ha ha, yes Had to have a 92 on it for the cameras though as they're so much more camera-friendly than a Shed.

Moral of the story - fake a 92 entrance and your much-heralded new service is doomed (perhaps)

 

[Rob T]

If the 1,000 miles info [92040] is true, it's probably done more distance being towed/transported around between Loughborough/Crewe/Coquelles than it's done under it's own power!
That said, there are photos of it on at least one rail tour (Rugby-Crewe) in 2001 just before it was stored and at Dollands Moor in 1996, so might have mustered a few more than 1,000 miles?

TimboM, just to re-iterate it is less than 1000 hours of service, not 1000 miles.

 

[TimboM]

TimboM, just to re-iterate it is less than 1000 hours of service, not 1000 miles.

Ah, yes! Sorry!!

 

[rick pike]

I've heard "engine hours run" on diesels mentioned a lot over the years.
But "hours of service" is new to me, does the clock start running as soon as the driver puts the key in and the pantograph goes up?

 

[TimboM]

Both 92010 and 044 were hired-in by DB early this morning and worked train 4426 from Dollands Moor to Frethun, and then the return working back through the tunnel with whatever freight was being collected from Calais.

I may be wrong, but I think it's the first time a DB train requiring 2x 92s has been operated wholly by GBRf locos (for the recent hire-ins its been 1x GBRf paired with 1x DB).

DB now have 5 of their 6 92s down at the Tunnel, but 036 and 042 presumably still require their TVM (in-cab signalling) recalibrated/certified at Eurotunnel after their recent lengthy stays in Crewe. Things still not looking too great with the DB 92 fleet.

92010 is now hot-footing it back to Willesden on a VSTP (OM92) http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O17994/2017/08/08/advanced.

 

[CosherB]

Both 92010 and 044 were hired-in by DB early this morning and worked train 4426 from Dollands Moor to Frethun, and then the return working back through the tunnel with whatever freight was being collected from Calais.

I may be wrong, but I think it's the first time a DB train requiring 2x 92s has been operated wholly by GBRf locos (for the recent hire-ins its been 1x GBRf paired with 1x DB).

DB now have 5 of their 6 92s down at the Tunnel, but 036 and 042 presumably still require their TVM (in-cab signalling) recalibrated/certified at Eurotunnel after their recent lengthy stays in Crewe. Things still not looking too great with the DB 92 fleet.

92010 is now hot-footing it back to Willesden on a VSTP (OM92) http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O17994/2017/08/08/advanced.

This is the "glass half empty" view, but you do have to wonder if DBC would rather let go of their Chunnel traffic so they can just get rid of the 92s once and for all (or just park them up). The counter view is that DBC are desperate to hold onto whatever traffic they can and would rather 'limp along' with their Chunnel traffic as it stands.

In the event they did stop using 92s, they could then concentrate on UK traffic with their 60s/66s/67s/90s. GBRf are clearly the 92 operator of choice now, and would benefit from an enlarged fleet of 92s with a mixed portfolio.

 

[BRX]

044 went from Dollands up to Willesden/Wembley earlier this afternoon, followed a little while later by DB's 92016.

I've noticed the morning water train to Daventry has been a couple of hours late a couple of times in the past few days, including this morning. Wondered if this might be on account of 92 troubles down at the tunnel.

 

[TimboM]

044 went from Dollands up to Willesden/Wembley earlier this afternoon, followed a little while later by DB's 92016.

I've noticed the morning water train to Daventry has been a couple of hours late a couple of times in the past few days, including this morning. Wondered if this might be on account of 92 troubles down at the tunnel.

Interesting... TOPS had it listed as 92010 (the Sleeper one) on 0M92 (which is I'm assuming what you saw - RTT link above); evidently wasn't! Just seen that 92044 is lined up to be the 1S26 Lowlander loco tonight. Interesting they sent that up (unmodified) rather than (modified) 92010. Could be for all manner of reasons though.

Nothing went the other way (0O92 Willesden-D Moor wasn't activated) so I'm assuming no China Clays this week.

92016 was being taken to Wembley by 67012 (0B34) - almost certainly for onward transfer to Crewe IEMD for attention. Yet more challenges for the DB 92s it would seem.

I suspect you're right about the delays - the GBRf 92s may well have been collecting the water this morning. They went on VSTPs (suggesting last minute arrangements) and arrived back in Dollands Moor c.7.30am if that ties in with when you saw it?

 

[BRX]

Interesting... TOPS had it listed as 92010 (the Sleeper one) on 0M92 (which is I'm assuming what you saw - RTT link above); evidently wasn't! Just seen that 92044 is lined up to be the 1S26 Lowlander loco tonight. Interesting they sent that up (unmodified) rather than (modified) 92010. Could be for all manner of reasons though.

Nothing went the other way (0O92 Willesden-D Moor wasn't activated) so I'm assuming no China Clays this week.

92016 was being taken to Wembley by 67012 (0B34) - almost certainly for onward transfer to Crewe IEMD for attention. Yet more challenges for the DB 92s it would seem.

I suspect you're right about the delays - the GBRf 92s may well have been collecting the water this morning. They went on VSTPs (suggesting last minute arrangements) and arrived back in Dollands Moor c.7.30pm if that ties in with when you saw it?

Assume you mean 7.30am, in which case yes, that would seem to tie in. It normally leaves DM just after 7, but was about 80 mins late this morning.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H15639/2017/08/08/advanced

The Scunthorpe steel was on time though, but not sure when that comes through the tunnel, maybe it has a longer stopover at DM.

 

[TimboM]

Assume you mean 7.30am, in which case yes, that would seem to tie in. It normally leaves DM just after 7, but was about 80 mins late this morning.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H15639/2017/08/08/advanced

The Scunthorpe steel was on time though, but not sure when that comes through the tunnel, maybe it has a longer stopover at DM.

Yes, I meant 7.30am - doh! (edited)

Not sure when the steel comes through, although it's probably why they needed the GBRf 92s as 2x DB 92s (011 and 019 I'd deduce) would've been on one of those two workings, 036/042 I think are still awaiting their TVM's being recalibrated and (let's assume!) 92016 had a problem - means they were left with a train to bring through needing 2x 92s and no 92s to do it with.

Making a lot of assumptions here, but you'd think the one running 80 Late would be the one that needed the VSTP path through the tunnel and GBRf 92 spot hire?

 

[TimboM]

This is the "glass half empty" view, but you do have to wonder if DBC would rather let go of their Chunnel traffic so they can just get rid of the 92s once and for all (or just park them up). The counter view is that DBC are desperate to hold onto whatever traffic they can and would rather 'limp along' with their Chunnel traffic as it stands.

In the event they did stop using 92s, they could then concentrate on UK traffic with their 60s/66s/67s/90s. GBRf are clearly the 92 operator of choice now, and would benefit from an enlarged fleet of 92s with a mixed portfolio.

Don't think it's "glass half empty" at all, in fact I'm wondering if we're already past the point of no return on the path to GBRf being the sole operators of 92s and hence tunnel work (which would be ironic as the main/only reason DB bought EWS was for the tunnel capability). I don't think that's a strategy by DB - just a result of the way they've (mis)managed their business. GBRf on the other hand I think spotted a strategic opportunity and are investing so they can exploit it.

It's clear DB would rather not have 92s if they weren't the only thing that can work the tunnel. Over the last year or so they've restricted the fleet to the bare minimum (numbers and capability-wise - only tunnel/HS1 now). They've also not invested heavily in their maintenance/repair it would seem (at least not on the scale of GBRf).

They're now faced with a creaking fleet which already cannot meet its obligations 100% of the time and hence needing to hire in GBRf's 92s on a pretty regular basis now. With DB in the state they're currently in, I'm not sure they've got the means or inclination to reverse the slide either. They could buy new locos from the continent as an alternative (think they've looked at this in the past) but never seems to have materialised into anything.

The way I see it going, GBRf's 92 fleet will continue getting stronger (as in bigger and more reliable) and DB's will continue to decline. The incidence of DB hiring in GBRf 92s will increase over the longer term. GBRf will be fine with this for as long as it lasts as they've got the only loco DB can hire so can pretty much name their price (in the context of maintaining an overall decent relationship with DB) and generate revenue from available capacity.

At some point, it no longer stacks up for DB to keep hiring in the GBRf locos and they either give up the work, or GBRf undercut them on price and/or reliability and pick it up that way. The interesting thing in that scenario would be what happens to the DB 92s - do they rot in Crewe like the rest or disappear to Eastern Europe, or do GBRf buy them (and/or others from DB) and use the blueprint they've used for theirs to get them back up to scratch?

Obviously that's just one scenario, but the two fleets are very much on opposite trajectories and I cannot see DB investing the huge amounts they probably need to in the nearish future to reverse the decline. DB may hold on to some work through their European connections, but I suspect GBRf will at the least take over at some point as the main operator of tunnel freight.

 

[BRX]

The Daventry water train has been retimed an hour or so later than usual today and tomorrow. Maybe indicative on continuing tunnel/92 problems.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H15639/2017/08/09/advanced

 

[TimboM]

The Daventry water train has been retimed an hour or so later than usual today and tomorrow. Maybe indicative on continuing tunnel/92 problems.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H15639/2017/08/09/advanced

Possibly...?
2+2 = 5 potentially, but if they're down to 2 locos as it seems they were yesterday when 010+044 had to be hired, by delaying one of the runs they could possibly do both return trips with the same two locos. GBRf only have 010 there at the moment, so could only hire them one.

DB 92016 is due to move to Crewe IEMD on 0K06 this evening: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H13260/2017/08/09/advanced - will join 015 which is there already.

 

[BRX]

DB 92019 being dragged up from Dollands Moor this morning (it seems to be running in the Scunthorpe Steel path).

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H13966/2017/08/10/advanced

 

[TimboM]

DB 92019 being dragged up from Dollands Moor this morning (it seems to be running in the Scunthorpe Steel path).

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H13966/2017/08/10/advanced

Yes - it's been re-coded to 0E26 (from 4E26) and has gone to Wembley instead (66142 the tow loco).
Another DB 92 on its way to Crewe IEMD, so they'll have half the fleet there again (015/016 already there).

036 and 042 are also showing "X" (eXam/repair) on TOPS this morning - I know this can be a short-term status (if indeed correct), however on the face of it would suggest that 92011 is their only operational 92 today.

Not seen anything confirming either way, but I'm wondering if 92010 is putting in some shifts for DB again.

 

[Mag_seven]

DB 92019 being dragged up from Dollands Moor this morning (it seems to be running in the Scunthorpe Steel path).

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H13966/2017/08/10/advanced

Just seen 019 in Wembley Yard

 

[Mag_seven]

Not seen anything confirming either way, but I'm wondering if 92010 is putting in some shifts for DB again.

On the other hand:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00221/2017/08/10/advanced

 

[TimboM]

92010 on the move back to Willesden: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00221/2017/08/10/advanced

 

[TimboM]

On the other hand:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00221/2017/08/10/advanced

Ha yes, think we spotted that at the same time! I saw the STP was in but was wondering if it would run or not.

I'm assuming it's needed back for the Sleepers. 90049 came down on 1M11 last night as is due back at Basford Hall today for exam, however the path for the replacement 90 this morning was cancelled. Assuming 90049 does go back, could leave them short as of the other locos at Willesden:

92014 - failed on Monday with Traction Motor issues - just returned to "N" (Normal/available) status on TOPS, but that's not to say it's back in action.
92018 - not worked this week and now "X" on TOPS (eXam/repair)
92032 - "X" on TOPS today.
92028 - appears available, but has had no testing at all on coaching stock (e.g. ECS moves) so doubt they'd use that.

Obviously TOPS info comes with an accuracy health warning, but wouldn't be surprised if 92010 is on the Lowlander tonight.

 

[BRX]

Sounds like they might be heading for some interesting times down at the tunnel then... and I might be seeing quite a few light engine moves between Dollands and Willesden over the next little while.

 

[TimboM]

Sounds like they might be heading for some interesting times down at the tunnel then... and I might be seeing quite a few light engine moves between Dollands and Willesden over the next little while.

Interesting is one way of putting it!
There is at least one going the other way, though. 90037 was hauling at least one DB Red 92 from Crewe IEMD to Wembley this afternoon on this VSTP: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O18557/2017/08/10/advanced I'd have thought it was 92015 as 92016 only arrived at Crewe last night.

Regarding the GBRf ones, as I was saying... <cough>

92010 isn't being used tonight I don't think - 92014 is back in action on the Lowlander (1S26) and I believe 92033 is sticking on the Highlander (1S25).

90049's move to Basford Hall was cancelled as well, think it might be done tomorrow instead.

 

[Far north 37]

Possibly...?
2+2 = 5 potentially, but if they're down to 2 locos as it seems they were yesterday when 010+044 had to be hired, by delaying one of the runs they could possibly do both return trips with the same two locos. GBRf only have 010 there at the moment, so could only hire them one.

DB 92016 is due to move to Crewe IEMD on 0K06 this evening: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H13260/2017/08/09/advanced - will join 015 which is there already.

seen 92016 coupled up to 90018 yesterday in wembley yard was it 90018 that took it north by any chance

 

[TimboM]

90037 was hauling at least one DB Red 92 from Crewe IEMD to Wembley this afternoon on this VSTP: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O18557/2017/08/10/advanced I'd have thought it was 92015 as 92016 only arrived at Crewe last night.

TOPS is showing 92016 as being at Wembley now, so would appear to have been at Crewe IEMD for just over 13 hours. That's a long way to go and a fair bit for hassle for what was presumably a quick job!? Seem to remember it (or another one) was in for <24 hours another time recently too.

EDIT: didn't hang around in Wembley long - back at the tunnel and working to Frethun with 92011 by c.10pm. Think it caught a lift with the Daventry-Dollands Moor working.

seen 92016 coupled up to 90018 yesterday in wembley yard was it 90018 that took it north by any chance

90037 did the run to Crewe last night with 92016 (and back to Wembley today); 90018 stayed at Wembley (still there this evening per TOPS).
I'm wondering if 90037 will head back on the 0K06 path to Crewe IEMD with 92019 later? It's not been activated yet though...


In other news, Terribly Tatty 90047 lined up to be swapped with 90049 tomorrow.