Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[Scotrail84]

Aberdeen portion has been only 2x Sleepers (plus seats / lounge) a fair bit in recent times (4 Sleepers going to Fort Bill). It’s not exactly peak summer/holiday season either.

Aberdeen and FTW are now back 3 x sleeping cars each and have been for over a week.

 

[Norther Monkey]

Surely the dramatic escalation in pricing has something to do with this.

I used the sleeper quite a lot about 10 years ago and think it’s such a brilliant way to travel.

I’d love to do it more often but, assuming you want a solo cabin, you aren’t able to book weeks ahead and you don’t have the luxury of flexibility on dates, it is just so expensive now. The berth supplement I used to purchase, the Caledonian Solo was £50. For a few dates I checked recently it’s now £100.

I used to be able to make the case at work (where the standard travel policy is to refund an standard off peak ticket) that the small extra cost was better than a cheap hotel room or a red eye flight to London, and it was always my preferred way to arrive for a day’s work in London feeling refreshed. CS’ pricing makes that harder and harder to argue. I can’t be the only one ...

No, you're not the only one. As a regular Highlands to London commuter I now use the sleeper only once or twice a year now rather than eight to ten. I simply can't justify the increased price as often, even though on many occasions it would be more convenient than flying (not to say more civilised).

 

[47271]

Surely the dramatic escalation in pricing has something to do with this.

I used the sleeper quite a lot about 10 years ago and think it’s such a brilliant way to travel.

I’d love to do it more often but, assuming you want a solo cabin, you aren’t able to book weeks ahead and you don’t have the luxury of flexibility on dates, it is just so expensive now. The berth supplement I used to purchase, the Caledonian Solo was £50. For a few dates I checked recently it’s now £100.

I used to be able to make the case at work (where the standard travel policy is to refund an standard off peak ticket) that the small extra cost was better than a cheap hotel room or a red eye flight to London, and it was always my preferred way to arrive for a day’s work in London feeling refreshed. CS’ pricing makes that harder and harder to argue. I can’t be the only one ...

I think that there's a couple of things here.

They're having a lot of success on the Inverness and Fort William sections of the Highlander - First Class out of Inverness is fully booked tonight for example - so you can't blame them for pushing prices there. The southbound Lowlander is in good shape tonight too, although it is the first day of the Scottish mid term holiday, so that will be helping. Great.

Where they seem to be a bit dim is that they fail to price to become competitive in situations of low demand, such as Aberdeen just about any day of the week. I'm sure they know what they're doing but I would be going in aggressively to build the business and then let prices drift upwards as I established myself as a viable alternative. The Aberdeen train is a franchise commitment so they might as well optimise on it. They must realise that they can't charge American tourist money for a trip to Aberdeen in October.

One more thing - I heard a comment over the weekend that both the Aberdeen and FW southbound sections were coming up as 'no available fares' for tonight. This won't be helping - does anyone know what the problem was there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is quite interesting that it's now Aberdeen that's the quiet one, when it was FW that BR tried to kill off...

 

[vlad]

Aberdeen and FTW are now back 3 x sleeping cars each and have been for over a week.

There were only 2 sleeping cars on the Aberdeen to London train on 29th September (and they weren't busy). It could be that October has brought another sleeping car.

 

[47271]

It is quite interesting that it's now Aberdeen that's the quiet one, when it was FW that BR tried to kill off...

That was 20 years before the Scottish tourist industry went through the roof, in the many grumbles about Serco's pricing on here noone should forget just how busy it's become recently - the bonzer exchange rate couldn't have been predicted even when they won the franchise in 2014.

Their problem is that they don't seem to know what to do with those destinations, or seasons, untouched by this phenomenon.

 

[Norther Monkey]

I'm no expert but I would have thought adjusting the price according to (expected) demand would be the way forward. It's obvious that it's often the case that they convey cabins of fresh air the length of the UK on nights I would have used it but for the price.

Surely better to take £50, say, from me than nothing. I'll do without food, drink, lounges etc. I just want a late departure, early arrival with enough rest so I can then work a full day.

 

[Iskra]

You would think CS would reduce their prices on the Aberdeen portion. It's the portion that has the most competition, on and off the rails. You would think they would attempt to compete to grab a share of the market.

Surely it's better have a full train charging cheap prices than an empty train charging top whack? The money spent in the lounge car from the additional customers would probably go some way for making up the reduced ticket income.

 

[TimboM]

Surely it's better have a full train charging cheap prices than an empty train charging top whack? The money spent in the lounge car from the additional customers would probably go some way for making up the reduced ticket income.

A 55% full train charging £100 per head makes more money than a 100% full train charging £50 per head...

 

[Norther Monkey]

A 55% full train charging £100 per head makes more money than a 100% full train charging £50 per head...

....and 55% paying £100 plus 45% paying £50 makes even more. The budget airlines seem to have this conundrum cracked, I'm surprised Serco haven't adopted a similar approach.

 

[TimboM]

....and 55% paying £100 plus 45% paying £50 makes even more. The budget airlines seem to have this conundrum cracked, I'm surprised Serco haven't adopted a similar approach.

At some point, though, a significant proportion of the guests (especially regulars) don't pay the £100 as they know if they hang on and there's space left (which there invariably is on the Aberdeen) they pick up the tickets at the cheaper price. The average price then becomes lower.

Whilst the budget airlines flex prices to demand, it's usually the other way round in that they earlier you book, the cheaper you get the tickets. Same with normal Advanced fares on trains. If you did that on the (Aberdeen) Sleeper and the demand just isn't there, would you end up with the half the train that was going to travel anyway paying less, and no-one buying late on at a higher price?

It's not quite as simple as it sounds, but perhaps there is a more flexible pricing approach in there somewhere.

 

[mirodo]

I travelled on the Sleeper for the first time last week. I was rather surprised when, after having enjoyed a drink and bite to eat in the lounge car, I was let back into my berth by the host without having to provide my ticket or any identification - I was merely asked which berth I was in. Is this par for the course? Slightly worrying if so.

 

[Far north 37]

I travelled on the Sleeper for the first time last week. I was rather surprised when, after having enjoyed a drink and bite to eat in the lounge car, I was let back into my berth by the host without having to provide my ticket or any identification - I was merely asked which berth I was in. Is this par for the course? Slightly worrying if so.

Perhaps there is a fair chance they recognised you.

 

[47271]

At some point, though, a significant proportion of the guests (especially regulars) don't pay the £100 as they know if they hang on and there's space left (which there invariably is on the Aberdeen) they pick up the tickets at the cheaper price. The average price then becomes lower.

Whilst the budget airlines flex prices to demand, it's usually the other way round in that they earlier you book, the cheaper you get the tickets. Same with normal Advanced fares on trains. If you did that on the (Aberdeen) Sleeper and the demand just isn't there, would you end up with the half the train that was going to travel anyway paying less, and no-one buying late on at a higher price?

It's not quite as simple as it sounds, but perhaps there is a more flexible pricing approach in there somewhere.

Well, whatever they're doing on Aberdeen at the moment isn't working for them. A business model based on late discounting to 'regulars' rather than one that encourages advance purchase from them seems a bit defeatist to me.

They need to get hold of those regulars and sell them a more suitable product. What about an Aberdeen line only Flexipass at a rate competitive with other modes to get things moving and money in the bank? Has CS heard of CRM, do they ever look at their customer data, I've never heard any stories that suggest that they do?

 

[mirodo]

Perhaps there is a fair chance they recognised you.

Yes, I guess so, but I’d be surprised if they could remember the correct berth for each guest.

 

[Chrism20]

Has CS heard of CRM, do they ever look at their customer data, I've never heard any stories that suggest that they do?

That’s a good point actually. I can’t remember the last time I received any promotional communication from CS whereas the other TOCSs I have registered with communicate at least once a month.

I could count on one hand how much promotional communication I’ve had from CS since Serco took over.

 

[paul1609]

At some point, though, a significant proportion of the guests (especially regulars) don't pay the £100 as they know if they hang on and there's space left (which there invariably is on the Aberdeen) they pick up the tickets at the cheaper price. The average price then becomes lower.

Whilst the budget airlines flex prices to demand, it's usually the other way round in that they earlier you book, the cheaper you get the tickets. Same with normal Advanced fares on trains. If you did that on the (Aberdeen) Sleeper and the demand just isn't there, would you end up with the half the train that was going to travel anyway paying less, and no-one buying late on at a higher price?

It's not quite as simple as it sounds, but perhaps there is a more flexible pricing approach in there somewhere.[/QUOTE

Maybe the Aberdeen service is different but as a regular on the West Highland and Lowlander services I can tell you that there has been next to no "regular" users on these services for many years. There are lots of tourists, there are Highlanders that travel down to London once or twice a year, there are a lot of Rail Staff travelling on Priv tickets but I can only tell you of one other regular business traveller on the West highland Sleeper. Competition with the airlines and now with the improved day trains killed that market sometime ago. I think that if Serco are maximising income they are right to be targeting and pricing for the premium tourist market.

At some point, though, a significant proportion of the guests (especially regulars) don't pay the £100 as they know if they hang on and there's space left (which there invariably is on the Aberdeen) they pick up the tickets at the cheaper price. The average price then becomes lower.

Whilst the budget airlines flex prices to demand, it's usually the other way round in that they earlier you book, the cheaper you get the tickets. Same with normal Advanced fares on trains. If you did that on the (Aberdeen) Sleeper and the demand just isn't there, would you end up with the half the train that was going to travel anyway paying less, and no-one buying late on at a higher price?

It's not quite as simple as it sounds, but perhaps there is a more flexible pricing approach in there somewhere.

Maybe the Aberdeen service is different but as a regular on the West Highland and Lowlander services I can tell you that there has been next to no "regular" users on these services for many years. There are lots of tourists, there are Highlanders that travel down to London once or twice a year, there are a lot of Rail Staff travelling on Priv tickets but I can only tell you of one other regular business traveller on the West highland Sleeper. Competition with the airlines and now with the improved day trains killed that market sometime ago. I think that if Serco are maximising income they are right to be targeting and pricing for the premium tourist market.

 

[Essexman]

Glasgow is the main sleeper I use for work and there don't seem to be many other business users on that one.
I did try to use Aberdeen a few weeks ago but it was fully booked.

 

[uww11x]

Why would you want to visit Aberdeen? It's a dump!

 

[RLBH]

Why would you want to visit Aberdeen?

Ferry to Orkney or Shetland, using it as a railhead for the wider area, or even (god forbid) having a work requirement to travel to or from Aberdeen. And indeed people from Aberdeenshire going to London might well wish to use the sleeper, even if Serco don't particularly care for their custom.

 

[Scotrail84]

Glasgow is the main sleeper I use for work and there don't seem to be many other business users on that one.
I did try to use Aberdeen a few weeks ago but it was fully booked.

There are more than a few regulars on the Lowlander sleeper, just as there is on the Highlander services.

 

[paul1609]

Ferry to Orkney or Shetland, using it as a railhead for the wider area, or even (god forbid) having a work requirement to travel to or from Aberdeen. And indeed people from Aberdeenshire going to London might well wish to use the sleeper, even if Serco don't particularly care for their custom.

Given that the Shetland ferry departs Aberdeen between 17.00 and 19.00 and arrives in the morning at 07.00 why on earth would you use the sleeper to connect to it? I got a lunchtime flight from Gatwick but you could easily get the 09.00 day service from Kings Cross.

 

[ScotTrains]

They should bring back the headline grabbing bargain berths to fill quiet services.

The last time I used the sleeper, just a few years ago, the wife and I payed £19 each for our berth. We then bought various drinks and dinner onboard. CS profits don't just come from berth sales. Using the scotrail loyalty card for the Virgin lounge was also a nice bonus.

We then spent money in London on hotels, dinner, theatre, etc. We probably would not have travelled to London had it not been for bargain berths. Perhaps Aberdeen council/ Scottish government should be subsidising bargain berths to encourage leisure travellers from London, providing a boost to the local economy.

 

[jagardner1984]

They should bring back the headline grabbing bargain berths to fill quiet services.

The last time I used the sleeper, just a few years ago, the wife and I payed £19 each for our berth. We then bought various drinks and dinner onboard. CS profits don't just come from berth sales. Using the scotrail loyalty card for the Virgin lounge was also a nice bonus.

We then spent money in London on hotels, dinner, theatre, etc. We probably would not have travelled to London had it not been for bargain berths. Perhaps Aberdeen council/ Scottish government should be subsidising bargain berths to encourage leisure travellers from London, providing a boost to the local economy.

Precisely. The point is people who’ve used the service know it’s a good experience, but for anyone new to it, or those on a financial squeeze looking at a 4 hour day train you can buy on the day for £70, £200 is a hell of a leap. It would seem unfortunate for it to purely become a tourist service, particularly given how seasonal that traffic is. Perhaps flexipass could be expanded with some seated / standard loyalty options ? The glimpse I saw of pricing for the new stock appeared even more premium.

 

[paul1609]

Id suggest the problem is with the cost base. if the profit margin on a London to Aberdeen super off peak return at £170 is say 10%. This is on high capacity day services. Id suggest that on a one way fare of £100 on the sleeper given its maintenance, low utilisations and staffing costs its an absolute basket case.

 

[Norther Monkey]

Given the recent discussion how, therefore, can the subsidy of this service be justified?

It seems that commuters are being priced off the service so we, the taxpayer, are now largely paying for a tourist attraction. Is the sleeper attracting enough tourists, who otherwise wouldn't travel, to return a net benefit? If not I'm not convinced I'm happy paying for other folks' holidays.

I'd miss it if it went, but that scarcely seems reason enough to keep it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainly the subsidy is very weakly justified if it is not used as a “lifeline” service by Scots.

 

[Highlandspring]

1B16 likely to be cancelled tonight due to a derailment at Stonehaven.

*edit* I’m told 1B16 will divert via Inverness...

 

[paul1609]

Certainly the subsidy is very weakly justified if it is not used as a “lifeline” service by Scots.

Actually I'd disagree, for the West Highland line the fact that it brings in so many tourists it is a lifeline and its kind of an indication that London does care and does regard particularly Lochaber as something that belongs to the UK and is worth supporting. Id think that would be the case for all the Highlander services to one degree or another and probably so to a lessor extent for the lowlanders.

 

[47271]

1B16 likely to be cancelled tonight due to a derailment at Stonehaven.

*edit* I’m told 1B16 will divert via Inverness...

Jeepers, that's a long way round, I hope that they've thought it through? It's either going to have to leave very early or the rest of the train will be stuck at Waverley for a long time...