Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[BRX]

I took these photos in summer 2016 on a trip south from Fort William. Both lounge and seated car in intercity livery. Lounge had fixed armrest but 2+1 seating.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's the old VXC interior...ah memories!

 

[Scotrail84]

I took these photos in summer 2016 on a trip south from Fort William. Both lounge and seated car in intercity livery. Lounge had fixed armrest but 2+1 seating.

View attachment 47139 View attachment 47140 View attachment 47141

That lounge has gone, I believe the sleeper MK2's that have not had a spruce up yet will be getting done at a place near Northallerton.

 

[fgwrich]

Was in the seated sleeper coach from Fort William southbound on Sunday - I noticed it was in the InterCity 'swallow' livery (or very similar to it?). All the rest of the coaches were the standard green/teal colour. Is it normally this or was it a spare filling in that night?

This Mk2 is a more recent hire in to the previous Mk2s, having come from Eastern Rail services. The previous Mk2s were from Riviera Trains who as you can probably guess, weren’t that bothered about their maintenance. The VT hire in last summer had a fair amount of tape holding it together so I’m not surprised GB & CS have dropped it in favour of someone else.

Not sure where the Caley Sleeper vehicles are being worked on, one was recently seen heading past Bishop Auckland though.

 

[92002]

They invariably take a short trip from Polmadie to Springburn. Occasionally a day to Kilmarnock. No need to stray far from the maintenance base, when they get good service and price.

 

[Scotrail84]

This Mk2 is a more recent hire in to the previous Mk2s, having come from Eastern Rail services. The previous Mk2s were from Riviera Trains who as you can probably guess, weren’t that bothered about their maintenance. The VT hire in last summer had a fair amount of tape holding it together so I’m not surprised GB & CS have dropped it in favour of someone else.

Not sure where the Caley Sleeper vehicles are being worked on, one was recently seen heading past Bishop Auckland though.

Weardale railway I believe.

 

[92002]

This Mk2 is a more recent hire in to the previous Mk2s, having come from Eastern Rail services. The previous Mk2s were from Riviera Trains who as you can probably guess, weren’t that bothered about their maintenance. The VT hire in last summer had a fair amount of tape holding it together so I’m not surprised GB & CS have dropped it in favour of someone else.

Not sure where the Caley Sleeper vehicles are being worked on, one was recently seen heading past Bishop Auckland though.

Would think the sighting at Bishop Auckland are new vehicles being delivered from Tees Dock to Polmadie.

A good number of which have now been delivered abs are being fitted out there.

 

[dvalts]

Is that the coach with the fixed armrest 2+2 table seating or am I thinking of another coach which has popped up on the Fort William portion

Yep - it had tables all the way through with 2+2 seating and fixed armrests. I was only traveling for a few hours to Edinburgh but it didn't look the best layout for a kip along the full route...although I suppose you change coaches at Edinburgh anyway.

 

[ScottDarg]

Would think the sighting at Bishop Auckland are new vehicles being delivered from Tees Dock to Polmadie.

A good number of which have now been delivered abs are being fitted out there.

One of the Mk.2 lounge cars was moved down there last month (27/04): https://flic.kr/p/23W3YGE

The above ran as 5Z44 Polmadie - Bishop Auckland West.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yep - it had tables all the way through with 2+2 seating and fixed armrests. I was only traveling for a few hours to Edinburgh but it didn't look the best layout for a kip along the full route...although I suppose you change coaches at Edinburgh anyway.

I believe it stays on the Fort Bill. Which is fairly sensible, as it adds extra walk-up capacity for FW to Edinburgh passengers as well.

 

[BRX]

It wasn't on the FW portion when I travelled last week - it was a 'normal' one with reclining seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It wasn't on the FW portion when I travelled last week - it was a 'normal' one with reclining seats.

Possibly it wasn't needed or required maintenance. My point was more that it would be very unlikely to end up at Euston.

 

[Scotrail84]

I believe it stays on the Fort Bill. Which is fairly sensible, as it adds extra walk-up capacity for FW to Edinburgh passengers as well.

Is there not less seats in the Intercity coach though? 24 compared to 31 in a standard CS seated coach?

 

[dvalts]

Yes the seated area is a lot shorter due to the brake van compartment. Passengers booked on the full journey through to London had to get up and change seats at Edinburgh as the coach is detached here.

 

[BRX]

Both have the brake area. The difference in capacity would come from the seating layout. While the CS coach has 2+1 rather than 2+2 seating, it also has most of the seats in airline arrangement so might well work out to have a higher capacity.

 

[47271]

I've just had an odd report from a Pitlochry regular, a totally reliable witness, on last night's (21/5) southbound Highlander. Two things:

One - the Inverness section ran down the HML in normal formation, in other words led by sleeper coach P and with the lounge and seated coach at the rear. Shunting at Edinburgh normally reverses this order, in and out via Haymarket, so when it arrives at Euston seated and lounge is at the front and sleeper P is at the far back of the full 16 coach train. This morning it arrived at Euston in the order that it left Inverness, so it must either have been turned round en route or never made it to Waverley.

Two - not only was it back to front but the Inverness section arrived at P15 at Euston immediately behind the loco with Aberdeen and Fort William at the country end. Normally Inverness takes up the rear.

RTT tells us nothing other than it arrived in Edinburgh on time and left 36 mins late.

So the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the Inverness section went round the South Sub and was connected to the front of the full train, presumably due to a technical fault somewhere in the formation?

All three sections show on RTT as having arrived on time at Waverley.

The train ran down the West Coast.

Anyone?

 

[TimboM]

I've just had an odd report from a Pitlochry regular, a totally reliable witness, on last night's (21/5) southbound Highlander. Two things:

One - the Inverness section ran down the HML in normal formation, in other words led by sleeper coach P and with the lounge and seated coach at the rear. Shunting at Edinburgh normally reverses this order, in and out via Haymarket, so when it arrives at Euston seated and lounge is at the front and sleeper P is at the far back of the full 16 coach train. This morning it arrived at Euston in the order that it left Inverness, so it must either have been turned round en route or never made it to Waverley.

Two - not only was it back to front but the Inverness section arrived at P15 at Euston immediately behind the loco with Aberdeen and Fort William at the country end. Normally Inverness takes up the rear.

RTT tells us nothing other than it arrived in Edinburgh on time and left 36 mins late.

So the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the Inverness section went round the South Sub and was connected to the front of the full train, presumably due to a technical fault somewhere in the formation?

All three sections show on RTT as having arrived on time at Waverley.

The train ran down the West Coast.

Anyone?

This is all correct...

Longish story. 92023 was supposed to work Carstairs last night but became indisposed. 73967 then ran in as Plan B from Mossend (where it was ex-Royal Scotsman duties) to work 5C11 to EDB and plan was it would then work 1C11 etc. However, that plan didn't pan out, so whilst 73967 got the Lowlander ECS (5C11) to Edinburgh, 92043 (at Waverley waiting to take 1M16) was rustled up to work 1C11. It was then due to run back on an 0Z16 VSTP to Waverley to work 1M16, however it couldn't due to a possession on the Down line at Auchengray. 92043 was therefore stranded at Carstairs...

So 67005 had to take the full train to Carstairs for 92043 to take over from there. This explains the delay at Edinburgh and then the further delay at Carstairs. The train ran into Carstairs station and 92043 was attached on what was the rear to take it away south, hence the reversing of the stock.

The possession was then lifted and 67005 was able to get back to Waverly to take 1S25 from EDB to Inverness as if nothing had happened...

(Credit to @Highlandspring for a fair bit of the above info!)

(EDITED for accuracy)

 

[47271]

Wow

If anyone says that either the modern railway, or specifically CS, readily throws in the towel or is incapable of being resourceful then this one needs to be framed and hung on the wall!

 

[LeylandLen]

This is all correct...

Longish story. 92023 was supposed to work Carstairs last night but became indisposed. 73967 then ran in as Plan B from Mossend (where it was ex-Royal Scotsman duties) to work 5C11 to EDB and plan was it would then work 1C11 etc. However, that plan didn't pan out, so whilst 73967 got the Lowlander ECS (5C11) to Edinburgh, 92043 (at Waverley waiting to take 1M16) was rustled up to work 1C11. It was then due to run back on an 0Z16 VSTP to Waverley to work 1M16, however it couldn't due to a possession on the Down line at Auchnegary. 92043 was therefore stranded at Carstairs...

So 67005 with the Inverness portion then needed to come in East to West into Waverley (opposite to normal, hence the trip round the sub) and then reverse/shunt onto the west end of Aberdeen/Fort William portions so that 67005 could then take the full train to Carstairs for 92043 to take over from there. This explains the delay at Edinburgh and then the further delay at Carstairs.

The possession was then lifted and 67005 was able to get back to Waverly to take 1S25 from EDB to Inverness as if nothing had happened...

(Credit to @Highlandspring for a fair bit of the above info!)

I've just had an odd report from a Pitlochry regular, a totally reliable witness, on last night's (21/5) southbound Highlander. Two things:

One - the Inverness section ran down the HML in normal formation, in other words led by sleeper coach P and with the lounge and seated coach at the rear. Shunting at Edinburgh normally reverses this order, in and out via Haymarket, so when it arrives at Euston seated and lounge is at the front and sleeper P is at the far back of the full 16 coach train. This morning it arrived at Euston in the order that it left Inverness, so it must either have been turned round en route or never made it to Waverley.

Two - not only was it back to front but the Inverness section arrived at P15 at Euston immediately behind the loco with Aberdeen and Fort William at the country end. Normally Inverness takes up the rear.

RTT tells us nothing other than it arrived in Edinburgh on time and left 36 mins late.

So the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the Inverness section went round the South Sub and was connected to the front of the full train, presumably due to a technical fault somewhere in the formation?

All three sections show on RTT as having arrived on time at Waverley.

The train ran down the West Coast.

Anyone?

1M16 normally goes direct from Carstairs E junc to Carstairs s junc , but for some reason it went into Carstairs 'station' and left in reverse formation to Carstairs S ,losing about 15 mins for a reason , maybe engineering works? Does that make sense?

I assume it will leave Euston 'back to front ' when heading back to Scotland.Will it have to be turned again at the 'Y' junction at Carstairs for it to arrive in Edinburgh in normal formation with the loco running round the train ? Otherwise it would be the wrong way round for all the shunting at Edinburgh and it could get confusing.

(I see TimboM #7258 gives a better detailed tale of what did happen )

 

[Highlandspring]

I didn’t witness it myself so can’t confirm but I don’t think it went round the Sub, rather it went Carstairs East - Carstairs station with the 92 going on what was the rear of the train to lead South and therefore turning the set. If it had also gone round the Sub them the train would have been correctly turned. And it’s ‘Auchengrey’..

Edit LeylandLen and I posted at the same time!

 

[TimboM]

I didn’t witness it myself so can’t confirm but I don’t think it went round the Sub, rather it went Carstairs East - Carstairs station with the 92 going on what was the rear of the train to lead South and therefore turning the set. If it had also gone round the Sub them the train would have been correctly turned. And it’s ‘Auchengrey’.

Edit LeylandLen and I posted at the same time!

In that case 67005 would've reversed/shunted the INV on to the rear/east end of the train as normal at Waverley, but then would've had to run round to take the train out west to Carstairs?

...and the reverse of the train at Carstairs to get 92043 on what was the rear is what resulted in the stock being turned.

(I've got Auchengray right at about the 3rd attempt)

 

[Highlandspring]

Yes a run round would have been necessary but I suspect that may account for the late departure from the Waverley. As I say if it had gone via the Sub then the train would have turned twice with the net result being it ending up the right way round on arrival at Euston.

 

[47271]

 

[TimboM]

<Map Image>

Think I was closer with my first misspelling of "Auch-ne-gary"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there not less seats in the Intercity coach though? 24 compared to 31 in a standard CS seated coach?

Aren't there 32 - 8 bays of 4? Or are some lost to a wheelchair area? I thought the Mk2 BSO was 7 bays with tables and 1 without in VXC days.

 

[marks87]

Yes a run round would have been necessary but I suspect that may account for the late departure from the Waverley. As I say if it had gone via the Sub then the train would have turned twice with the net result being it ending up the right way round on arrival at Euston.

Not quite. While the two portions would have been the right way round relative to each other (i.e. Aberdeen/Fort William at the buffers and Inverness at the rear), the Inverness portion as a stand-alone half-set would have been the wrong way round.

Edit: acrtually, strictly speaking, it would have been the Aberdeen/Fort William portion that was the wrong way round, but you get the idea.

 

[Highlandspring]

I was thinking of the whole train departing via the Sub rather than the Inverness portion arriving that way.

 

[mikey9]

View attachment 47213

Now referencing an OS map doesn't resolve any argument about placename spellings. We can find different spellings on different scales very easily......(especially in the Highlands!)....just saying!

 

[johnr57]

This is all correct...

Longish story. 92023 was supposed to work Carstairs last night but became indisposed. 73967 then ran in as Plan B from Mossend (where it was ex-Royal Scotsman duties) to work 5C11 to EDB and plan was it would then work 1C11 etc. However, that plan didn't pan out, so whilst 73967 got the Lowlander ECS (5C11) to Edinburgh, 92043 (at Waverley waiting to take 1M16) was rustled up to work 1C11. It was then due to run back on an 0Z16 VSTP to Waverley to work 1M16, however it couldn't due to a possession on the Down line at Auchengray. 92043 was therefore stranded at Carstairs...

So 67005 had to take the full train to Carstairs for 92043 to take over from there. This explains the delay at Edinburgh and then the further delay at Carstairs. The train ran into Carstairs station and 92043 was attached on what was the rear to take it away south, hence the reversing of the stock.

The possession was then lifted and 67005 was able to get back to Waverly to take 1S25 from EDB to Inverness as if nothing had happened...

(Credit to @Highlandspring for a fair bit of the above info!)

(EDITED for accuracy)

These gems are the reAson that make this forum and specifically this thread addictable - thank you ladies & gentlemen

 

[berneyarms]

This is all correct...

Longish story. 92023 was supposed to work Carstairs last night but became indisposed. 73967 then ran in as Plan B from Mossend (where it was ex-Royal Scotsman duties) to work 5C11 to EDB and plan was it would then work 1C11 etc. However, that plan didn't pan out, so whilst 73967 got the Lowlander ECS (5C11) to Edinburgh, 92043 (at Waverley waiting to take 1M16) was rustled up to work 1C11. It was then due to run back on an 0Z16 VSTP to Waverley to work 1M16, however it couldn't due to a possession on the Down line at Auchengray. 92043 was therefore stranded at Carstairs...

So 67005 had to take the full train to Carstairs for 92043 to take over from there. This explains the delay at Edinburgh and then the further delay at Carstairs. The train ran into Carstairs station and 92043 was attached on what was the rear to take it away south, hence the reversing of the stock.

The possession was then lifted and 67005 was able to get back to Waverly to take 1S25 from EDB to Inverness as if nothing had happened...

(Credit to @Highlandspring for a fair bit of the above info!)

(EDITED for accuracy)

Thanks for the exceptionally detailed explanation!