Caledonian Sleeper

[Bletchleyite]

I do wonder if it wasn't for the political support and the extra subsidy whether the cal sleeper would have disappeared when the stock finally became life expired.

That was my thought, and it remains a concern with regard to the Penzance one, unless they consider a follow-on Mk5 order. They could order a couple of fixed formation sets with driving trailers to work with a 68, which would allow money to be saved on shunting.

 

[alistairlees]

Cynical thought....
Drive prices up, sleeper becomes transport for the rich, sleeper becomes politically easy to kill off at franchise renewal.

A truly silly ‘thought’. If you want to stop something like the sleeper there are much easier ways to achieve it. Such as, for example, not providing the funding for new rolling stock in the first place.

 

[Meerkat]

A truly silly ‘thought’. If you want to stop something like the sleeper there are much easier ways to achieve it. Such as, for example, not providing the funding for new rolling stock in the first place.

That was pure politics, Osborn calling the SNP bluff.
It will be easier not to renew, or reduce destinations, if they can get the press to portray it as a massive subsidy for rich folk.
Is it feasible to cut destinations, which have the weakest market? Maybe free up a couple of rakes for the Penzance route.....

 

[JonathanH]

Maybe free up a couple of rakes for the Penzance route.....

Is there a need? Hasn't the Cornish stock just been overhauled and won't there be spares (ie parts, not full coaches) recovered as part of the scrapping process?

Is it feasible to cut destinations, which have the weakest market?

No, there are only five destinations. I don't think it would be politically acceptable to cut these back or particularly practical.

The Scottish sleeper stock has always seemed in worse condition to the Cornish stock but maybe that is just the standard of paintwork.

 

[bobbyrail]

Cynical thought....
Drive prices up, sleeper becomes transport for the rich, sleeper becomes politically easy to kill off at franchise renewal.

If it became solely a transport for the rich then there is no chance that it could be killed off, the only only way the sleeper could die is it was not politically viable. Please do remember that the rich and privileged have more clout than the rest of us as to what trains actually run.

 

[jagardner1984]

probably onto something there. Question is, if Serco’s losses continue anything like current rate, how long will they keep it going; and who would take it on if they did hand back the keys ....

 

[47271]

As I understand it, Serco won't be in any hurry to hand back the keys. They might be losing a lot of money now, especially through nursing the old stock, but this won't continue for much longer.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/medi...t-caledonian-sleeper-23-may-2014-redacted.pdf

The Franchise Agreement through a profit support adjustment (p309 of the Agreement) protects them against losses incurred after the fifth anniversary of start of operation, in other words in around a year's time.

So if the sleeper's losing more money than expected one year down the line from the introduction of the new trains then it's the taxpayer's, and not the operator's, problem.

If Serco's business model misfires and losses increase then that's something that'll need to be played out in the political domain, but don't expect the operator to have too much to say about it.

 

[Bungle965]

Sleeper trains are barely viable, as seems to be being shown over much of Europe (though OeBB's operation seems to be a bit of a quirk and I'm not sure why - preferential track access perhaps?)

So it's probably a case of have it like this or don't have it at all. The Mk2s and Mk3s are falling to bits, they do need replacing. (I'm not sure how GWR are managing here).

However Sweden appears to be eyeing reintroducing parts of their sleeper networks. So it's not all doom and gloom for sleeper services.
Sam

 

[philthetube]

Indefensible from my point of view as a passenger. How can I justify paying £170 for something when I can achieve the same result - and in the same or greater comfort - for less than £50?

I also dispute the financial reality as you quote it; not on money grounds but ethical ones. The railway is supposed to be public transport. We don't expect roads to make a profit/pay for themselves, so we shouldn't expect the same of the railways. When car drivers are forced to pay the full economic cost of the journeys they make, I'll accept that rail passengers should be forced to do the same. Right now, it's political jibberish, not to mention off topic, so let's leave it there.

Interesting that ethics are down to others but not you, if you believed what you type you would be paying for the sleeper.

 

[TimboM]

As I understand it, Serco won't be in any hurry to hand back the keys. They might be losing a lot of money now, especially through nursing the old stock, but this won't continue for much longer.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/medi...t-caledonian-sleeper-23-may-2014-redacted.pdf

The Franchise Agreement through a profit support adjustment (p309 of the Agreement) protects them against losses incurred after the fifth anniversary of start of operation, in other words in around a year's time.

So if the sleeper's losing more money than expected one year down the line from the introduction of the new trains then it's the taxpayer's, and not the operator's, problem.

If Serco's business model misfires and losses increase then that's something that'll need to be played out in the political domain, but don't expect the operator to have too much to say about it.

Serco Caledonian Sleepers Ltd can recover 50% of contract losses from April 2020 onwards (i.e. 5th anniversary) and from April 2022 (7th anniversary) are entitled "to seek adjustments to the financial terms of the Franchise Agreement" so that they receive a small margin (2.5% on revenue) from that date or otherwise be allowed to exit the Franchise.

50% of several million is still several million though - £4.7m was released from the onerous contract provision to cover the operational losses made in the 3 months ended 31 March 2018.

The provision for losses expected over the entire Franchise as at the start of 2018 was £44.3m - I'd expect this already takes into account the known/agreed mechanisms in the Franchise Agreement (as above) which would reduce the impact on Serco.

Indeed, the provision carried forward at 31 March 2018 of £39.6m was reported as including £22.7m of current liabilities (due <1 year). This would indicate the expected losses for the year to 31 March 2019 whilst running the old stock were of that magnitude.

 

[Mathew S]

Interesting that ethics are down to others but not you, if you believed what you type you would be paying for the sleeper.

What?

 

[47271]

Serco Caledonian Sleepers Ltd can recover 50% of contract losses from April 2020 onwards (i.e. 5th anniversary) and from April 2022 (7th anniversary) are entitled "to seek adjustments to the financial terms of the Franchise Agreement" so that they receive a small margin (2.5% on revenue) from that date or otherwise be allowed to exit the Franchise.

50% of several million is still several million though - £4.7m was released from the onerous contract provision to cover the operational losses made in the 3 months ended 31 March 2018.

The provision for losses expected over the entire Franchise as at the start of 2018 was £44.3m - I'd expect this already takes into account the known/agreed mechanisms in the Franchise Agreement (as above) which would reduce the impact on Serco.

Indeed, the provision carried forward at 31 March 2018 of £39.6m was reported as including £22.7m of current liabilities (due <1 year). This would indicate the expected losses for the year to 31 March 2019 whilst running the old stock were of that magnitude.

Thanks for the additional interpretation - so to be clear on implications in the context of 'handing back the keys', to use another poster's expression, Serco will still be liable for a proportion of any losses from next year onwards?

 

[adamello]

Indefensible from my point of view as a passenger. How can I justify paying £170 for something when I can achieve the same result - and in the same or greater comfort - for less than £50?

Because its not meant to be just a train, just a hotel - or even just a train and a hotel
its billed as an experience, they're selling the sit down meal, bar service, and morning views, something that people will want to try at least once..

 

[Bald Rick]

Here's my images of the Mk5 interiors from Wednesday's trip. Amongst other things, just look at how many sockets there are, both standard and USB, and note the pin coded mini safes in the seated portion - one for each passenger.

I’ve only just seen your pictures Peter, it all looks great.

Would you say the beds are the same size (length) as on the MkIIIs? It looks like it. I ask only because that is one of the reasons I don’t sleep well on sleeoers - I don’t fit! Perhaps I should go diagonal on the double...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve only just seen your pictures Peter, it all looks great.

Would you say the beds are the same size (length) as on the MkIIIs? It looks like it. I ask only because that is one of the reasons I don’t sleep well on sleeoers - I don’t fit! Perhaps I should go diagonal on the double...

You want to try a 5' x 2' shelf in Sleeper Class in India! Despite being 6' 4" and almost as broad I somehow managed it for 2 nights! Far better than any seat, at least it was horizontal.

 

[Norther Monkey]

Because its not meant to be just a train, just a hotel - or even just a train and a hotel
its billed as an experience, they're selling the sit down meal, bar service, and morning views, something that people will want to try at least once..

Is that something that should be subsidised? I'm a regular London to Aberdeen commuter- and the recent price increases have 'relegated' me to the seats on most occasions. Meanwhile I pay taxes, in Scotland, to allow tourists, and richer business travellers to complete the journey in much greater comfort.
The fact it runs still, on occasion, offers something flights don't - especially now easyJet has dropped its Aberdeen-Gatwick route.
Unless the beds can be shown to provide a net benefit, through tourism and/or business, to the north of Scotland I'd rather the Scottish government subsidised more budget flights between Aberdeen and London.

 

[Bald Rick]

Unless the beds can be shown to provide a net benefit, through tourism and/or business, to the north of Scotland I'd rather the Scottish government subsidised more budget flights between Aberdeen and London.

Difficult to subsidise just one airline though, lest the others cry foul. It would have to be all of them. And then it would be subsidising competing modes of transport. Doesn’t look good economically! (Acknowledging that it happens elsewhere).

 

[alangla]

Difficult to subsidise just one airline though, lest the others cry foul. It would have to be all of them. And then it would be subsidising competing modes of transport. Doesn’t look good economically! (Acknowledging that it happens elsewhere).

Unfortunately London to both Aberdeen & Inverness has multiple air routes with different carriers, so no chance of subsidy. The Dundee to Stansted route is subsidised as far as I know. Not sure if the previous FlyBe Dundee to Amsterdam one was too.

The unique thing about the sleeper is that it attracts a disproportionate number of powerful political & media people moving between Scotland & London plus there’s the perceived prestige element of it. There’s no way the Penzance train will be allowed to be the last sleeper service in the UK...

 

[Norther Monkey]

Unfortunately London to both Aberdeen & Inverness has multiple air routes with different carriers, so no chance of subsidy. The Dundee to Stansted route is subsidised as far as I know. Not sure if the previous FlyBe Dundee to Amsterdam one was too.

The unique thing about the sleeper is that it attracts a disproportionate number of powerful political & media people moving between Scotland & London plus there’s the perceived prestige element of it. There’s no way the Penzance train will be allowed to be the last sleeper service in the UK...

With easyJet's abandonment of Aberdeen to Gatwick there's a shortage of affordable early morning/evening seats on the London route. Politically difficult I agree but in terms of wider benefit to the population possibly a better use of money than the sleeper.

I'm not sure who these political and media folk are - could it be something of an enduring myth? MPs I've spoken to tend to fly (perhaps those from Dundee/Perthshire may use the sleeper), and I'm not particularly aware of Aberdeen being a regular destination for media types.

 

[jagardner1984]

I think notions of subsidy can be used to tell whatever political story you want. The dualling if the A9, the New Caledonian Sleeper Stock, the proposed cuts in AIr Passenger Duty (which budget airlines consistently say is necessary to ensure viability of short haul routes), could all be interpreted as subsidy. They could all be interpreted as economic stimulus.

The interpretation of which is a good idea and which isn’t really depends on which politician you listen to and what point they are trying to make.

Look forward to seeing the new stock in action.

 

[TimboM]

Thanks for the additional interpretation - so to be clear on implications in the context of 'handing back the keys', to use another poster's expression, Serco will still be liable for a proportion of any losses from next year onwards?

Up to 31 March 2020, they bear all contract losses
1 April 2020 - 31 March 2022 they can recover 50% of contract losses from Transport Scotland; but yes - still bear 50% of them.
1 April 2022 onwards they can request alteration to the financial T&Cs such that they make a small profit, or are able to walk away. Although not explicitly disclosed in the public domain as far as I know, the implication being if they walked away before then they'd be hit with penalties etc that would be even greater than the contract losses to that point.

None of these are cumulative/retrospective though - the main losses are expected whilst the old stock is still being coaxed along and before these mechanisms apply.

 

[ld0595]

Traveling from Fort William on the 5th of May and just had an email tonight that I'll be diverted to Kings Cross. Fortunately I already knew this in advance despite the website saying Euston when I booked it a few weeks ago, but it seems pretty poor to inform customers now despite these works being planned months in advance.

On another note, does anyone know if it's possible to make a dining reservation in the lounge before departure when travelling on a first class ticket? I sent CS a message when I booked it and I was told to inform the host when I board, but I recall seeing tables already reserved when I boarded the sleeper from Euston about a year and a half ago. I know first class passengers have priority, but I don't really want to boot someone out the lounge halfway through the journey! Also, I presume I'll have access to the lounge/shower facilities in Kings Cross on arrival?

 

[Iskra]

Traveling from Fort William on the 5th of May and just had an email tonight that I'll be diverted to Kings Cross. Fortunately I already knew this in advance despite the website saying Euston when I booked it a few weeks ago, but it seems pretty poor to inform customers now despite these works being planned months in advance.

On another note, does anyone know if it's possible to make a dining reservation in the lounge before departure when travelling on a first class ticket? I sent CS a message when I booked it and I was told to inform the host when I board, but I recall seeing tables already reserved when I boarded the sleeper from Euston about a year and a half ago. I know first class passengers have priority, but I don't really want to boot someone out the lounge halfway through the journey! Also, I presume I'll have access to the lounge/shower facilities in Kings Cross on arrival?

I'm not sure there are showers at Kings Cross First Class Lounge.

When I was on the sleeper diverted into Kings Cross, I walked to the lounge at Euston for a shower there as per the normal arrangement.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I’ve only just seen your pictures Peter, it all looks great.

Would you say the beds are the same size (length) as on the MkIIIs? It looks like it. I ask only because that is one of the reasons I don’t sleep well on sleepers - I don’t fit! Perhaps I should go diagonal on the double...

The two I laid down on for a minute or two ( one classic single and one suite double ) did give me the impression that they have squeezed an extra inch or two out of them, but I couldn't really say because I didn't actually check the length... I'm one of those people who sleep on their side so I tend to sleep slightly curled up anyway.

What I can say for sure is that the mattresses are far more comfortable than those on the Mk3s, and the ride of the carriages is considerably smoother.

 

[Bald Rick]

The two I laid down on for a minute or two ( one classic single and one suite double ) did give me the impression that they have squeezed an extra inch or two out of them, but I couldn't really say because I didn't actually check the length... I'm one of those people who sleep on their side so I tend to sleep slightly curled up anyway.

What I can say for sure is that the mattresses are far more comfortable than those on the Mk3s, and the ride of the carriages is considerably smoother.

Thank you for that - sounds promising!

 

[47271]

Up to 31 March 2020, they bear all contract losses
1 April 2020 - 31 March 2022 they can recover 50% of contract losses from Transport Scotland; but yes - still bear 50% of them.
1 April 2022 onwards they can request alteration to the financial T&Cs such that they make a small profit, or are able to walk away. Although not explicitly disclosed in the public domain as far as I know, the implication being if they walked away before then they'd be hit with penalties etc that would be even greater than the contract losses to that point.

None of these are cumulative/retrospective though - the main losses are expected whilst the old stock is still being coaxed along and before these mechanisms apply.

Many thanks, very helpful.

The two I laid down on for a minute or two ( one classic single and one suite double ) did give me the impression that they have squeezed an extra inch or two out of them, but I couldn't really say because I didn't actually check the length... I'm one of those people who sleep on their side so I tend to sleep slightly curled up anyway.

What I can say for sure is that the mattresses are far more comfortable than those on the Mk3s, and the ride of the carriages is considerably smoother.

I believe that they've taken an inch from the width of the side corridor and made the bed longer by that amount. The single bed's also supposed to be very slightly wider than on a mk3.

I'm not sure there are showers at Kings Cross First Class Lounge.

There aren't.

 

[Morayshire]

When leaving Aberdeen this evening, I noticed that the sleeper stock has 66746 in Royal Scotsman livery on one end and a 73 on the other. Was there a problem with the 73 last night?

 

[Bald Rick]

I believe that they've taken an inch from the width of the side corridor and made the bed longer by that amount.

25.4mm surely?

 

[vlad]

On another note, does anyone know if it's possible to make a dining reservation in the lounge before departure when travelling on a first class ticket?

As far as I know you're not (although you used to be, so there's always a possibility it'll be brought back).

Last year I contacted CS via their website to book a table and the staff member said they'd set up a reservation - but this never materialised on the train.

 

[Hipster Dashie]

On another note, does anyone know if it's possible to make a dining reservation in the lounge before departure when travelling on a first class ticket? I sent CS a message when I booked it and I was told to inform the host when I board, but I recall seeing tables already reserved when I boarded the sleeper from Euston about a year and a half ago. I know first class passengers have priority, but I don't really want to boot someone out the lounge halfway through the journey! Also, I presume I'll have access to the lounge/shower facilities in Kings Cross on arrival?

I called CS customer services yesterday for this exact reason and was told that they don't do reservations anymore, dinner in the lounge car is on a first come, first served basis.