Caledonian Sleeper

[JamieL]

Depends which part of Scotland, but if you’re going to Aberdeen, there’s not much difference in the emissions created per passenger mile between a sleeper passenger and one travelling by EasyJet / BA.

That's quite interesting. Can you share your calculations?

 

[Falcon1200]

Fingers crossed for some kind of return of the Bargain Berths.

If they could do that without reducing revenue (and therefore requiring increased subsidy), that would be good. However IMHO the greatest benefit of nationalisation would be re-integrating the operation with Scotrail (from which it should never have been separated in the first place).

 

[paul1609]

Depends which part of Scotland, but if you’re going to Aberdeen, there’s not much difference in the emissions created per passenger mile between a sleeper passenger and one travelling by EasyJet / BA.

That only takes in to account vehicle emissions. If you include all those network rail vans blocking the outside lane of dual carriageways at 68 and stuff like the electricity consumption of 500 miles of track circuits I reckon Easyjet is probably the enviromentally friendly option.

 

[trebor79]

That only takes in to account vehicle emissions. If you include all those network rail vans blocking the outside lane of dual carriageways at 68 and stuff like the electricity consumption of 500 miles of track circuits I reckon Easyjet is probably the enviromentally friendly option.

So you should also include the energy used to run the airport, all the ground handling vehicles, electricity used for radar, air traffic control, navigation beacons (which will be many, many multiples of that used for track circuiting and signalling) etc etc.

 

[zwk500]

That only takes in to account vehicle emissions. If you include all those network rail vans blocking the outside lane of dual carriageways at 68 and stuff like the electricity consumption of 500 miles of track circuits I reckon Easyjet is probably the enviromentally friendly option.

One lap of a holding pattern would quickly exceed the environmental impact of the nightly consumption of track circuits. And, of course, you would have to apportion that cost across all the trains that use a track, just as you would have to apportion the energy consumption of a Aircraft safety check across the different flights it will go on to operate before the next interval check.

 

[paul1609]

So you should also include the energy used to run the airport, all the ground handling vehicles, electricity used for radar, air traffic control, navigation beacons (which will be many, many multiples of that used for track circuiting and signalling) etc etc.

I wouldnt mind betting that per passenger on lightly used lines over 500 miles the auxiliary energy will be considerably less in air than rail.

 

[zwk500]

I wouldnt mind betting that per passenger on lightly used lines over 500 miles the auxiliary energy will be considerably less in air than rail.

Bear in mind that north of Perth or Dundee the amount of track circuits drops off considerably and there are far fewer signals to keep lit. The environmental impact of, say, the fife circle can be amortised across the daytime trains as well, because you wouldn't be turning the railway off overnight.

 

[Trainbike46]

Depends which part of Scotland, but if you’re going to Aberdeen, there’s not much difference in the emissions created per passenger mile between a sleeper passenger and one travelling by EasyJet / BA.

Would you be able to link for data for this?

I'm guessing with destination you mean the lowlander is lower emission (as hauled electric the whole way) compared to the highlander?

I wouldnt mind betting that per passenger on lightly used lines over 500 miles the auxiliary energy will be considerably less in air than rail.

That's a bet you would lose, things like lights and track circuits really don't use much electricity. And electricity in the highlands is very green anyway

The government publishes average emissions per passenger for various categories, and flights emissions per passenger mile are much higher.

For example: (the numbers are CO2 equivalent per passenger kilometre, international rail is eurostar)

National rail	passenger.km	0.03549
International rail	passenger.km	0.00446
Light rail and tram	passenger.km	0.02861
London Underground	passenger.km	0.02781

Average passenger (UK Domestic)	passenger.km	0.24587
Average passenger (Short-haul to/from UK)	passenger.km	0.15353
Economy class (Short-haul to/from UK)	passenger.km	0.15102
Business class (Short-haul to/from UK)	passenger.km	0.22652

The numbers are MUCH higher for flights. Now of course the sleeper (especially the highlander) will be above the average for National Rail, so that is why I hope @Bald Rick will be able to share more details on how he came up with his data for the not much difference, so we can see how much the sleeper is above average

(in case anyone wants to go through the spreadsheet, it's here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/greenhouse-gas-reporting-conversion-factors-2021 Travel emissions are under "business travel", split over land, air and sea)

 

[lachlan]

Would you be able to link for data for this?

I'm guessing with destination you mean the lowlander is lower emission (as hauled electric the whole way) compared to the highlander?


That's a bet you would lose, things like lights and track circuits really don't use much electricity. And electricity in the highlands is very green anyway

The government publishes average emissions per passenger for various categories, and flights emissions per passenger mile are much higher.

For example: (the numbers are CO2 equivalent per passenger kilometre, international rail is eurostar)

National rail	passenger.km	0.03549
International rail	passenger.km	0.00446
Light rail and tram	passenger.km	0.02861
London Underground	passenger.km	0.02781

Average passenger (UK Domestic)	passenger.km	0.24587
Average passenger (Short-haul to/from UK)	passenger.km	0.15353
Economy class (Short-haul to/from UK)	passenger.km	0.15102
Business class (Short-haul to/from UK)	passenger.km	0.22652

The numbers are MUCH higher for flights. Now of course the sleeper (especially the highlander) will be above the average for National Rail, so that is why I hope @Bald Rick will be able to share more details on how he came up with his data for the not much difference, so we can see how much the sleeper is above average

(in case anyone wants to go through the spreadsheet, it's here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/greenhouse-gas-reporting-conversion-factors-2021 Travel emissions are under "business travel", split over land, air and sea)

And of course the sleeper will relatively soon be all-electric whereas flights are quite some way off being electrified.

The infrastructure emissions aren't really relevant as it is required for day trains which would be running anyway and provide an essential public transport service.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's quite interesting. Can you share your calculations?

Would you be able to link for data for this?

I'm guessing with destination you mean the lowlander is lower emission (as hauled electric the whole way) compared to the highlander?

I did the calcs on these pages a while back.

The simplified version is that a Class 73 hauling 4 coaches of sleeper train from Edinburgh to Aberdeen will burn though about 1000 litres of diesel on the journey and on the shunting at Edinburgh plus empty movements either end (And a lot of idling, keeping the coaches powered & warm). That’s for a maximum of 32 sleeper passengers (if all cabins have double occupancy) and 31 seated passengers. Given that the Aberdeen seats are rarely full, and that the cabins do not always sell out, and many have single occupancy, a typical load on the Aberdeen is about 45-50 passengers.

Meanwhile an A320neo from Luton to Aberdeen will burn about 3,000 litres of Jet A1 for the journey (including taxiing, auxiliaries, etc) with, typically, 171 people on board (easyjet average 92% load factor, 186 seats).

Jet A1 produces 15% more CO2e per litre than diesel.

So 3 x as much fuel for the plane, creating 3.45 x the CO2e emissions, but for c3.5 x as many passengers. So - broadly - similar. Certainly similar enough that the averages / error will not make it significantly different.


This does not allow anything for the main haul up from Euston to Edinburgh by Class 92. Yes it’s electric, but I reckon I could argue the emissions created by that about 5 different ways, from nearly nothing to quite a lot. So I’ve excluded it.

 

[najaB]

Meanwhile an A320neo from Luton to Aberdeen will burn about 3,000 litres of Jet A1 for the journey (including taxiing, auxiliaries, etc) with, typically, 171 people on board (easyjet average 92% load factor, 186 seats).

Is that their year-round load factor? I only ask because I've been on a few London-Edinburgh flights that were well under that (probably closer to 50%) but I've never flown Aberdeen-London.

 

[Trainbike46]

I did the calcs on these pages a while back.

The simplified version is that a Class 73 hauling 4 coaches of sleeper train from Edinburgh to Aberdeen will burn though about 1000 litres of diesel on the journey and on the shunting at Edinburgh plus empty movements either end (And a lot of idling, keeping the coaches powered & warm). That’s for a maximum of 32 sleeper passengers (if all cabins have double occupancy) and 31 seated passengers. Given that the Aberdeen seats are rarely full, and that the cabins do not always sell out, and many have single occupancy, a typical load on the Aberdeen is about 45-50 passengers.

Meanwhile an A320neo from Luton to Aberdeen will burn about 3,000 litres of Jet A1 for the journey (including taxiing, auxiliaries, etc) with, typically, 171 people on board (easyjet average 92% load factor, 186 seats).

Jet A1 produces 15% more CO2e per litre than diesel.

So 3 x as much fuel for the plane, creating 3.45 x the CO2e emissions, but for c3.5 x as many passengers. So - broadly - similar. Certainly similar enough that the averages / error will not make it significantly different.


This does not allow anything for the main haul up from Euston to Edinburgh by Class 92. Yes it’s electric, but I reckon I could argue the emissions created by that about 5 different ways, from nearly nothing to quite a lot. So I’ve excluded it.

Thank you. I didn't realise there were that few passengers on the aberdeen highlander!

And that is probably the best way of improving those numbers for the sleeper would be to have more passengers (or of course electrification, but that is going to take a while to reach Aberdeen in full)

Is that their year-round load factor? I only ask because I've been on a few London-Edinburgh flights that were well under that (probably closer to 50%) but I've never flown Aberdeen-London.

I suspect it is easyjet's average load factor, as I would be surprised if they publish it on a route by route basis

I'm still surprised about half the passengers are in the single seated carriage

 

[Bald Rick]

Thank you. I didn't realise there were that few passengers on the aberdeen highlander!

When it runs as 4 vehicles, yes. 2 sleepers (1 standard, 10 cabins, 1 accessible, 6 cabins), 1 seated, 1 club car.

And that is probably the best way of improving those numbers for the sleeper would be to have more passengers (or of course electrification, but that is going to take a while to reach Aberdeen in full)

By far the best way to improve the numbers is to invite the 40 or so passengers a day to use the day train.

I suspect it is easyjet's average load factor, as I would be surprised if they publish it on a route by route basis

Yes it is their average load factor across their whole operation. As reported for Q4 22. For comparison, on EZYs evening flight from Gatwick to Aberdeen tonight there are two seats left. On the sleeper there are at least 6 (and I suspect more). Conversely on the early flight out of Luton tomorrow there’s loads of seats left.

I’ve never been to Aberdeen by rail or air, but I have flown with easyJet to/from Scotland (Glasgow and Inverness, mostly) a fair bit and it’s rare that the flight is anything but close to full.

 

[Trainbike46]

When it runs as 4 vehicles, yes. 2 sleepers (1 standard, 10 cabins, 1 accessible, 6 cabins), 1 seated, 1 club car.

Is the normal split something like
8 inverness (6 sleeper, 1 club and 1 seated, all all the way from london)
4 Aberdeen (2 sleeper, 1 club, 1 seated, all all the way from london)
6 Fort william (4 sleeper all the way from london, 1 club and 1 seated from Edinburgh)
did i get that right?

By far the best way to improve the numbers is to invite the 40 or so passengers a day to use the day train.

Fair point there!

I was working on the assumption we weren't removing the sleeper

In any case, from what I've heard it seems the aberdeen sleeper is relatively unpopular, so potentially canning it and sending more coaches to Inverness instead should be considered

 

[BRX]

I did the calcs on these pages a while back.

The simplified version is that a Class 73 hauling 4 coaches of sleeper train from Edinburgh to Aberdeen will burn though about 1000 litres of diesel on the journey and on the shunting at Edinburgh plus empty movements either end (And a lot of idling, keeping the coaches powered & warm). That’s for a maximum of 32 sleeper passengers (if all cabins have double occupancy) and 31 seated passengers. Given that the Aberdeen seats are rarely full, and that the cabins do not always sell out, and many have single occupancy, a typical load on the Aberdeen is about 45-50 passengers.

Meanwhile an A320neo from Luton to Aberdeen will burn about 3,000 litres of Jet A1 for the journey (including taxiing, auxiliaries, etc) with, typically, 171 people on board (easyjet average 92% load factor, 186 seats).

Jet A1 produces 15% more CO2e per litre than diesel.

So 3 x as much fuel for the plane, creating 3.45 x the CO2e emissions, but for c3.5 x as many passengers. So - broadly - similar. Certainly similar enough that the averages / error will not make it significantly different.


This does not allow anything for the main haul up from Euston to Edinburgh by Class 92. Yes it’s electric, but I reckon I could argue the emissions created by that about 5 different ways, from nearly nothing to quite a lot. So I’ve excluded it.

3000L of Jet A1 = 2400kg
CO2 emissions for jet A1 = 3.15kg per kg of fuel
2400 x 3.15kg = 7560kg CO2e per plane
7560kg / 170 passengers = 44kg CO2e per passenger

Have I got those numbers roughly right?

Interesting to note that estimates for CO2e per room-night in a hotel seem to be in the range of 10-20kg.

The sleeper of course is effectively functioning as a hotel room on top of the transport component, so arguably this should be taken into account too. Of course, taking a flight is not always accompanied by a hotel stay but it often is. And the same would apply to the day-train alternative. As ever, the calculation is going to vary quite a lot according to the specifics of each journey.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is the normal split something like
8 inverness (6 sleeper, 1 club and 1 seated, all all the way from london)
4 Aberdeen (2 sleeper, 1 club, 1 seated, all all the way from london)
6 Fort william (4 sleeper all the way from london, 1 club and 1 seated from Edinburgh)
did i get that right?

Others will know better than me what the formation is - it does vary by season. Last night it was 4 to Aberdeen. I believe the Highlander is down to 14 coaches this time of year, it seems to be 5 to Ft Bill, so I assume 7 to Inverness.

 

[BRX]

Is the normal split something like
8 inverness (6 sleeper, 1 club and 1 seated, all all the way from london)
4 Aberdeen (2 sleeper, 1 club, 1 seated, all all the way from london)
6 Fort william (4 sleeper all the way from london, 1 club and 1 seated from Edinburgh)
did i get that right?

That's correct, for the summer period, generally.

 

[paul1609]

Bear in mind that north of Perth or Dundee the amount of track circuits drops off considerably and there are far fewer signals to keep lit. The environmental impact of, say, the fife circle can be amortised across the daytime trains as well, because you wouldn't be turning the railway off overnight.

Would you be able to link for data for this?

I'm guessing with destination you mean the lowlander is lower emission (as hauled electric the whole way) compared to the highlander?


That's a bet you would lose, things like lights and track circuits really don't use much electricity. And electricity in the highlands is very green anyway

The government publishes average emissions per passenger for various categories, and flights emissions per passenger mile are much higher.

For example: (the numbers are CO2 equivalent per passenger kilometre, international rail is eurostar)

National rail	passenger.km	0.03549
International rail	passenger.km	0.00446
Light rail and tram	passenger.km	0.02861
London Underground	passenger.km	0.02781

Average passenger (UK Domestic)	passenger.km	0.24587
Average passenger (Short-haul to/from UK)	passenger.km	0.15353
Economy class (Short-haul to/from UK)	passenger.km	0.15102
Business class (Short-haul to/from UK)	passenger.km	0.22652

The numbers are MUCH higher for flights. Now of course the sleeper (especially the highlander) will be above the average for National Rail, so that is why I hope @Bald Rick will be able to share more details on how he came up with his data for the not much difference, so we can see how much the sleeper is above average

(in case anyone wants to go through the spreadsheet, it's here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/greenhouse-gas-reporting-conversion-factors-2021 Travel emissions are under "business travel", split over land, air and sea)

That's the energy figures based on the vehicle itself it doesn't include the energy costs of maintaining 500 miles of railways in between the terminals. In the railways case this would be stuff like tamping of the line, inspection of the line repairs to things due to weather and repairing it after things like the Stonehaven derailment. Those energy costs over a 500 mile route are probably more than the vehicle itself, by comparison the maintenance costs of the air infrastructure between the terminals is probably just some radar and nav aids.

 

[BRX]

That's the energy figures based on the vehicle itself it doesn't include the energy costs of maintaining 500 miles of railways in between the terminals. In the railways case this would be stuff like tamping of the line, inspection of the line repairs to things due to weather and repairing it after things like the Stonehaven derailment. Those energy costs over a 500 mile route are probably more than the vehicle itself, by comparison the maintenance costs of the air infrastructure between the terminals is probably just some radar and nav aids.

This is a silly argument because that 500 miles of infrastructure isn't just there to serve aberdeen to london sleeper trains, it serves a whole bunch of other stuff including all the shorter intermediate and connecting journeys along the route, which would be completely impossible to provide by air unless you want to build an airport in every small town. Furthermore, air transport would be entirely useless without ground based infrastructure that lets people make journeys to and from the airports at each end, delivers the fuel to the aircraft and all the rest of it.

 

[ajrm]

When it runs as 4 vehicles, yes. 2 sleepers (1 standard, 10 cabins, 1 accessible, 6 cabins), 1 seated, 1 club car.



By far the best way to improve the numbers is to invite the 40 or so passengers a day to use the day train.

Hopefully by providing a day train that provides an earlier arrival in London than 1337 (the earliest possible arrival changing at Edinburgh) or 1449 (the first direct train)...

 

[Bald Rick]

Hopefully by providing a day train that provides an earlier arrival in London than 1337 (the earliest possible arrival changing at Edinburgh) or 1449 (the first direct train)...

You can do it by 1312 if you enjoy a sprint across Glasgow

What I meant (but didn’t explain) is that using the lowlander to Edinburgh and then connecting onto a day train to Aberdeen, and vice versa. It’s entirely possible today - indeed you can leave Aberdeen later and arrive Euston earlier through a (tight) connection at Edinburgh onto the lowlander than using the Highlander throughout. Or do it with a much more leisurely connection by leaving Aberdeen 15 minutes earlier.

 

[Steddenm]

Am on tonight's Fort William to Euston sleeper and have to say I'm very impressed.

It's my first time in the Mk5s.

I'm in a Club Double on my own (Translink booked it for me), and the bed is comfy, the shower is hot, lighting is a tad bright for me, and the food has been great in the lounge car.

The general consensus between the staff is that ScotRail are likely to run the service in the future, but some staff think that Serco might be a bit weird with this and start selling extremely cheap cabins and seats in the run up to handover though.

It's great seeing the Northern Lights as we travel along the route as well.

Was a bit surprised to see it advertised on the boards at FTW as an Edinburgh service, not Euston.

The amenities kit in the room is great as well.

Will definitely book it again in the future.

Tomorrow is a day in London and then the GWR sleeper to Penzance on a solo room, so will see how that goes!

 

[Trainbike46]

That's the energy figures based on the vehicle itself it doesn't include the energy costs of maintaining 500 miles of railways in between the terminals. In the railways case this would be stuff like tamping of the line, inspection of the line repairs to things due to weather and repairing it after things like the Stonehaven derailment. Those energy costs over a 500 mile route are probably more than the vehicle itself, by comparison the maintenance costs of the air infrastructure between the terminals is probably just some radar and nav aids.

The government source I cited is intended to be as close as possible to a whole lifecycle (so including infrastructure, building the vehicle, maintenance etc.) figure. of course none of these numbers are perfect, but they will be pretty close estimates.

Unlike others on this thread, you keep coming up with these assertions not backed up by anything, no sources, no calculations, as far as I can tell not even personal experience!

I'm in a Club Double on my own (Translink booked it for me), and the bed is comfy, the shower is hot, lighting is a tad bright for me, and the food has been great in the lounge car.

Could I ask how you booked any GB train service through Translink?

 

[Steddenm]

The government source I cited is intended to be as close as possible to a whole lifecycle (so including infrastructure, building the vehicle, maintenance etc.) figure. of course none of these numbers are perfect, but they will be pretty close estimates.

Unlike others on this thread, you keep coming up with these assertions not backed up by anything, no sources, no calculations, as far as I can tell not even personal experience!


Could I ask how you booked any GB train service through Translink?

Their staff office booked it for me. I think they just use a standard booking agency in the UK. Tickets were posted to me. My partner works for Translink NIR

 

[Trainbike46]

ah fair.

I just wanted to check they weren't selling combined NI and GB tickets, because that would be very convenient!

I hope you have a good time in Cornwall

 

[Stathern Jc]

Report on the BBC News Website that the Caledonian Sleeper Service is to be Nationalised:

Caledonian Sleeper rail service to be nationalised

Scotland's transport minister says an arm's length company will take over the franchise on 25 June.

www.bbc.co.uk

"The Caledonian Sleeper rail service is to be nationalised later this year, the Scottish government has announced.
The move comes after ministers decided last year to terminate Serco's contract to run the service seven years early.
The out-sourcing company will stop operating the cross-border rail service when its contract expires in June."

This isn't really a surprise, more of a formal announcement of what has been widely anticipated.

 

[ScotTrains]

I wonder if the nationalisation will result in better use of their first class lounges. Scotrail 1st class passengers could potentially be allowed to use these facilities during the day.

 

[Kite159]

I wonder if the nationalisation will result in better use of their first class lounges. Scotrail 1st class passengers could potentially be allowed to use these facilities during the day.

Depends how much extra it will cost to staff the lounges during the day to allow the odd Scotrail 1st class passenger to use it. After-all from what it sounds like "SNP Sleepy" and "SNP Rail" will be two separate companies.

 

[zwk500]

Depends how much extra it will cost to staff the lounges during the day to allow the odd Scotrail 1st class passenger to use it. After-all from what it sounds like "SNP Sleepy" and "SNP Rail" will be two separate companies.

I thought the whole point was that they'd become one company to save on back end staff? I can get them being largely separate divisions but wholly separate companies means zero change from today's situation, which apparently wasn't working.

 

[Facing Back]

I thought the whole point was that they'd become one company to save on back end staff? I can get them being largely separate divisions but wholly separate companies means zero change from today's situation, which apparently wasn't working.

I hear rumours that Serco intend to keep the top few layers on management and redeploy them rather than transferring them through TUPE, rather than just the director level, so it might end up being a defacto joint operation.