Caledonian Sleeper

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Scottish Government operator for Caledonian Sleeper will be separate from Scotrail, at least formally.
Nothing seems to have been disclosed about how it will operate, which will be under Operator of Last Resort legislation.
The statements seem to agree the service is of high quality and performing well, and contract termination does not reflect on Serco's management - not that you'd have guessed that from forum postings.
Serco evidently wanted a more favourable deal to continue operation, which SG declined to give.

 

[Christmas]

The Scottish Government operator for Caledonian Sleeper will be separate from Scotrail, at least formally.
Nothing seems to have been disclosed about how it will operate, which will be under Operator of Last Resort legislation.
The statements seem to agree the service is of high quality and performing well, and contract termination does not reflect on Serco's management - not that you'd have guessed that from forum postings.
Serco evidently wanted a more favourable deal to continue operation, which SG declined to give.

Yet another own goal for Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government. It was utterly wrong to split up the ScotRail franchise in the first place, and now, with a good opportunity to re-merge both, they don't appear to be taking it.

The behind the scenes job duplication needn't have occurred but not only that, at the time of the split, staff who worked on the Sleeper suddenly found themselves stuck there, unable to apply for job opportunities within ScotRail that previously they could have.

Bringing the Sleeper back into ScotRail also brings increased levels of staff coverage, subject to training of course.

 

[PG]

Yet another own goal for Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government. It was utterly wrong to split up the ScotRail franchise in the first place, and now, with a good opportunity to re-merge both, they don't appear to be taking it.

We can but hope that they eventually see sense and re-merge them back into one.

 

[popeter45]

Yet another own goal for Transport Scotland and the Scottish Government. It was utterly wrong to split up the ScotRail franchise in the first place, and now, with a good opportunity to re-merge both, they don't appear to be taking it.

The behind the scenes job duplication needn't have occurred but not only that, at the time of the split, staff who worked on the Sleeper suddenly found themselves stuck there, unable to apply for job opportunities within ScotRail that previously they could have.

Bringing the Sleeper back into ScotRail also brings increased levels of staff coverage, subject to training of course.

i suspect plans are as much as possible buisness as usual to not rock the boat while they take over so no changes for now
maybe the merge them later, maybe they dont

 

[Falcon1200]

It was utterly wrong to split up the ScotRail franchise in the first place

Yes indeed.

We can but hope that they eventually see sense and re-merge them back into one.

Certainly hope so. Operationally speaking, it was awkward enough already for Scotrail Control to manage the sleepers when outwith Scotland, but at least they were, and are, co-located with Network Rail Scotland Route Control. Removing that duty from Scotland altogether, to a remote location, was an operational nonsense (which is not to denigrate in any way those who took over the work from Scotrail, they were given a difficult task).

 

[Meerkat]

I thought the whole point was that they'd become one company to save on back end staff? I can get them being largely separate divisions but wholly separate companies means zero change from today's situation, which apparently wasn't working.

If that happens how will the unions react? Ironic if nationalisation causes a strike…..

We can but hope that they eventually see sense and re-merge them back into one.

What was the theory behind the split and has that gone away?
I’m not convinced a merger will lead to better service - the sleeper could just become a side hustle that loses out when the reduced staffing bites.

 

[adrock1976]

Will this mean that there will be an obvious operating cost reduction on the Fort William portion at the very least, as before the split, the drivers and guards of both the last Glasgow QS - Mallaig and the Sleeper would meet each other at either Rannoch or Bridge of Orchy (depending on which day) to change over?

 

[Class385]

Will this mean that there will be an obvious operating cost reduction on the Fort William portion at the very least, as before the split, the drivers and guards of both the last Glasgow QS - Mallaig and the Sleeper would meet each other at either Rannoch or Bridge of Orchy (depending on which day) to change over?

I doubt it as GBRF have the contract till 2030 & own the locos.

 

[ainsworth74]

I doubt it as GBRF have the contract till 2030 & own the locos.

Though the guards I believe are Caledonian Sleeper staff?

 

[najaB]

I doubt it as GBRF have the contract till 2030 & own the locos.

Is there any limitation on a Scottish Caledonian Sleeper driver operating a locomotive owned by GBRF? (Genuine question)

 

[Trainbike46]

Is there any limitation on a Scottish Caledonian Sleeper driver operating a locomotive owned by GBRF? (Genuine question)

I'd assume the contract with GBRf includes the provision of a driver?

 

[najaB]

I'd assume the contract with GBRf includes the provision of a driver?

No doubt it does, but they can save on their staff costs by having someone else drive the train.

 

[Class385]

Scottish Caledonian Sleeper drivers are GBRF drivers. My post was in regards to a crew change on the Fort William portion, I wouldn’t imagine a GBRF driver would be driving a 156 for Scotrail.

 

[Stathern Jc]

I doubt it as GBRF have the contract till 2030 & own the locos

Presumably GBRF have a contract with Serco.
Will that be transferrable, which seems sensible? And, after the transfer, will that be on current terms and binding to both parties?

I don't know anything about this.
But wonder if, for example, GBRF needed to look for a review of contract value to cover unforeseen developments whether the Scottish Government could have them bumped off similarly to Serco?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Presumably GBRF have a contract with Serco.
Will that be transferrable, which seems sensible? And, after the transfer, will that be on current terms and binding to both parties?

I don't know anything about this.
But wonder if, for example, GBRF needed to look for a review of contract value to cover unforeseen developments whether the Scottish Government could have them bumped off similarly to Serco?

GBRFs Ace card is that they have the 73/9s capable of operating the Mk5 coaches and no one else has !.

 

[Observer]

GBRFs Ace card is that they have the 73/9s capable of operating the Mk5 coaches and no one else has !.

And the electrical requirements for the Mk5s also demand the usage of 92s too as far as I understand? We can easily agree the 73s have not been the best, especially when there have been 66 and 67s needed to pilot them lately.

If it was contracted through Serco, I would assume the likelihood is the Scottish Government will work with GBRf to carry on for now under the new regime but it may always end up getting retendered and see what the bids are.

Presumably we would be looking at new locos altogether by the sounds of things, unless suitable locos become available for sale on the market that can be adapted.

The large factor seems to be ETH requirements more than Dellner couplers which have been fitted to a wide variety of locos in the past.

 

[Tezza1978]

A Few CS questions for anyone who can help - as I've got my first trip on it this coming Wednesday night (Dundee to Euston for work reasons):

- I take it you can't board the train early at Dundee as it is an intermediate stop and not a terminus?
- Have got a classic berth and am travelling alone - I take it I should be able to get a bar stool seat in the lounge so I can grab some dinner/have a couple of whiskey's?
- I definitely want to have breakfast in the lounge rather than in my room - do I have to book a timeslot or just turn up?
- I want a token for the showers at Euston when I arrive (I'm not first class so I read I need this to access the lounge - do I just buzz the host and ask for one?)
- Due to Carstairs remodelling - train going on ECML... planned arrival is about 9.15am. Do they adjust times you can eat breakfast in the lounge to reflect this (so I can get more sleep!) or do I risk being turfed off the train if say it arrives at 8.30/8.45am early?

 

[JamieL]

A Few CS questions for anyone who can help - as I've got my first trip on it this coming Wednesday night (Dundee to Euston for work reasons):

- I take it you can't board the train early at Dundee as it is an intermediate stop and not a terminus?
- Have got a classic berth and am travelling alone - I take it I should be able to get a bar stool seat in the lounge so I can grab some dinner/have a couple of whiskey's?
- I definitely want to have breakfast in the lounge rather than in my room - do I have to book a timeslot or just turn up?
- I want a token for the showers at Euston when I arrive (I'm not first class so I read I need this to access the lounge - do I just buzz the host and ask for one?)
- Due to Carstairs remodelling - train going on ECML... planned arrival is about 9.15am. Do they adjust times you can eat breakfast in the lounge to reflect this (so I can get more sleep!) or do I risk being turfed off the train if say it arrives at 8.30/8.45am early?

I haven't used the Highland from that part of Scotland (only the Fort William portion for me), so can't answer all your questions but some of the answers are:

Lounge Access. This is prioritised for Club and Club Double users so it depends upon demand. If there is space then yes, if not you will be invited to come back later. Room service is available.

Breakfast. You have a card in your room that you fill out and hang on your door saying where and when you want Breakfast. Do this immediately upon embarkation. This is also the card you annotate to say if you want to be informed of any delay.

Breakfast Timings. I think you can ask for just about anytime for breakast. I am an early riser so normally go for 0530ish and that is never a problem.

Arrival Times. If the train is scheduled to arrive at 0915 you won't get turfed off before that although your hosts will certainly let you know you have arrived.

 

[PG]

Due to Carstairs remodelling - train going on ECML... planned arrival is about 9.15am. Do they adjust times you can eat breakfast in the lounge to reflect this (so I can get more sleep!) or do I risk being turfed off the train if say it arrives at 8.30/8.45am early?

Arrival Times. If the train is scheduled to arrive at 0915 you won't get turfed off before that although your hosts will certainly let you know you have arrived.

I'd be willing to bet that in the event of an earlier arrival you would be strongly encouraged to leave the train.

I take it you can't board the train early at Dundee as it is an intermediate stop and not a terminus?

Correct.

 

[_toommm_]

A Few CS questions for anyone who can help - as I've got my first trip on it this coming Wednesday night (Dundee to Euston for work reasons):

- I take it you can't board the train early at Dundee as it is an intermediate stop and not a terminus?
- Have got a classic berth and am travelling alone - I take it I should be able to get a bar stool seat in the lounge so I can grab some dinner/have a couple of whiskey's?
- I definitely want to have breakfast in the lounge rather than in my room - do I have to book a timeslot or just turn up?
- I want a token for the showers at Euston when I arrive (I'm not first class so I read I need this to access the lounge - do I just buzz the host and ask for one?)
- Due to Carstairs remodelling - train going on ECML... planned arrival is about 9.15am. Do they adjust times you can eat breakfast in the lounge to reflect this (so I can get more sleep!) or do I risk being turfed off the train if say it arrives at 8.30/8.45am early?

On the quiet trains you’re just welcomed into the Club Car, even with a classic berth. I got in straight away when I did it from Fort William in January, there were only three of us in there for most of that line.

 

[Tezza1978]

I haven't used the Highland from that part of Scotland (only the Fort William portion for me), so can't answer all your questions but some of the answers are:

Lounge Access. This is prioritised for Club and Club Double users so it depends upon demand. If there is space then yes, if not you will be invited to come back later. Room service is available.

Breakfast. You have a card in your room that you fill out and hang on your door saying where and when you want Breakfast. Do this immediately upon embarkation. This is also the card you annotate to say if you want to be informed of any delay.

Breakfast Timings. I think you can ask for just about anytime for breakast. I am an early riser so normally go for 0530ish and that is never a problem.

Arrival Times. If the train is scheduled to arrive at 0915 you won't get turfed off before that although your hosts will certainly let you know you have arrived.

I'd be willing to bet that in the event of an earlier arrival you would be strongly encouraged to leave the train.


Correct.

Thank you both! I might go for a 7.30am breakfast then - I doubt very much that the train would be much more than an hour early. I'm guessing without any knowledge that the pathing to go down the ECML is more complex hence the much later arrival time than the usual time for the sleeper.

If anyone knows the answer to my shower token question that would be great as all my other ones have been answered

 

[fgwrich]

And the electrical requirements for the Mk5s also demand the usage of 92s too as far as I understand? We can easily agree the 73s have not been the best, especially when there have been 66 and 67s needed to pilot them lately.

If it was contracted through Serco, I would assume the likelihood is the Scottish Government will work with GBRf to carry on for now under the new regime but it may always end up getting retendered and see what the bids are.

Presumably we would be looking at new locos altogether by the sounds of things, unless suitable locos become available for sale on the market that can be adapted.

The large factor seems to be ETH requirements more than Dellner couplers which have been fitted to a wide variety of locos in the past.

Exactly so. Besides, people seem to be forgetting that ScotRail has used outsider traction in the past - the Fife Circle operation for example starting with DB cargo & it's coaches, before Transport Scotland chose DRS (with Riviera Trains) with repainted Mk2s & branded 68s for the second incarnation of the contract.

 

[JonathanH]

- I take it you can't board the train early at Dundee as it is an intermediate stop and not a terminus?

There is a customer lounge for Caledonian Sleeper at Dundee, where passengers can wait from 8pm until the train arrives.
https://www.sleeper.scot/guest-lounges/

We operate our own Guest Lounges in Dundee, Fort William, Inverness, Leuchars and Perth. The Scottish Stations Fund supported us in developing these lounges, with the exception of Inverness, while we also received support from the Railway Heritage Trust.

Here’s all the details you’ll need on opening times and what tickets are accepted:

Dundee:
05:30 to 09:30, 20:00 to 23:59. Tickets accepted: Caledonian Double, Club, Classic, Seated, Family Tickets

 

[Tezza1978]

There is a customer lounge for Caledonian Sleeper at Dundee, where passengers can wait from 8pm until the train arrives.
https://www.sleeper.scot/guest-lounges/

Great!! I didnt think I could use any lounges on a classic ticket. Will head there then about half an hour before the train arrives (probably after a pint or 2 at a local pub after I finish my meetings in Dundee at the end of the day )

 

[XAM2175]

And the electrical requirements for the Mk5s also demand the usage of 92s too as far as I understand?

Correct - only the 92s can power the combined rakes. Theoretically this could be worked-around by keeping the trains split for the whole trip, but obviously that introduces additional costs in other ways.

 

[Peter Sarf]

And the electrical requirements for the Mk5s also demand the usage of 92s too as far as I understand? We can easily agree the 73s have not been the best, especially when there have been 66 and 67s needed to pilot them lately.

If it was contracted through Serco, I would assume the likelihood is the Scottish Government will work with GBRf to carry on for now under the new regime but it may always end up getting retendered and see what the bids are.

Presumably we would be looking at new locos altogether by the sounds of things, unless suitable locos become available for sale on the market that can be adapted.

The large factor seems to be ETH requirements more than Dellner couplers which have been fitted to a wide variety of locos in the past.

I think it is standard practice for the 8 coach Inverness to be double headed, maybe the others. The smaller Aberdeen and Fort William portions get double headed when rail conditions are expected to be difficult iirc. The 73/9s are more for the ETH and get paired with any other loco if more power is needed, GBRF of course so 66/67 iirc. But I seem to recall the 73/9s get worked hard.

 

[sufian123]

Hi

With the diversions via ECML how does the formation work with the reversal at Wembley please? RTT isn't always accurate many thanks Sufian

 

[popeter45]

Hi

With the diversions via ECML how does the formation work with the reversal at Wembley please? RTT isn't always accurate many thanks Sufian

once they get to wembley they enter a the yard and the loco detaches, another attaches to the back and thats what then pulls it into Euston

 

[sufian123]

once they get to wembley they enter a the yard and the loco detaches, another attaches to the back and thats what then pulls it into Euston

Many thanks

 

[JonathanH]

once they get to wembley they enter a the yard and the loco detaches, another attaches to the back and thats what then pulls it into Euston

The formation is 'topped and tailed' between Euston and Wembley in both directions. They don't detach the locomotive at Wembley for the Euston leg.