Caledonian Sleeper

[zwk500]

It's not just CS, it's trashed LNER services today as well. Lots of cancellations showing, some trains have got through but showing heavy delays south of York so presumably either running wrong line or going via a diversionary route.

LNER at least have some bi-modes that could have nipped round via Church Fenton if the 2 Leeds Lines are open through Colton.

 

[JonathanH]

Would also be interested to know how crewing works in these situations, as presumably crews are out of place and the knock on to their next days off ...

I would guess that on a Friday night / Saturday morning, everyone goes back to their home base, and then departs from their home base on a Sunday night ? Or am I being too logical ?

Should be the 'home' crews tonight, being a Sunday night, so you would imagine that they just go home on Monday, then switch mid-way with the 'away' crews on Monday night to get them back in the right place.

 

[najaB]

"Act of God" incidents have a very specific definition, namely "any accident or event that is not influenced by man", in essence a natural disaster. It does not refer to mechanical failure for which any competent authority would have contingency plans in place for.

If you want to use the strict legal definition of 'act of god' then yes, mechanical failures would be excluded. However, in the case of the failure of a built artefact the question that needs to be asked is if the failure could have been predicted with a fair degree of accuracy, or if it is something has happened effectively at random.

S&C is, as far as I know, regularly inspected and replacement scheduled based on condition as well as being limited by lifetime. The fact that this has happened when the WCML is also shut indicates strongly that both the condition and fatigue life remaining meant that this failure would fall into the "unexpected and random" category (though, naturally, I'm not privy to the information needed to state that as fact).

Fully agree about your point about CS doing all they could here though - this is Network Rail's incompetence over failing to contingency plan ECML failure concurrent with the Carstairs works. A point I made on this forum before the Carstairs work even began. 'We know best' was the general tone I got back - and here we are.

What would the contingency plan have been for this?

 

[zwk500]

What would the contingency plan have been for this?

As mentioned above, the 73 could stay on the end at Edinburgh and (perhaps with assistance from a 66) drag the train via the Tyne Valley to Carlisle, where it would detach and await the northbound train to return to Edinburgh via the same route.

 

[najaB]

As mentioned above, the 73 could stay on the end at Edinburgh and (perhaps with assistance from a 66) drag the train via the Tyne Valley to Carlisle, where it would detach and await the northbound train to return to Edinburgh via the same route.

That's a heck of a lot of contingency planning to put in place (making sure that you have drivers with the requisite route and traction knowledge in place, getting paths planned in, etc.) for what was, in reality, a low probability event. How many other nights has the WCML been shut and the sleepers just gone down the ECML without any fuss?

 

[zwk500]

That's a heck of a lot of contingency planning to put in place (making sure that you have drivers with the requisite route and traction knowledge in place, getting paths planned in, etc.) for what was, in reality, a low probability event. How many other nights has the WCML been shut and the sleepers just gone down the ECML without any fuss?

Oh I know - you're requiring a closure in two of four sections, simultaneously, but for the other 2 sections to remain open while it happens. Maintaining 66 Drivers on the tyne valley wouldn't have been too complicated, but the cost of clearing Mk5s for the line would be and the additional staffing costs of the loco moves wouldn't be sensible either.

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

Couldn’t have been a worse place.

They couldn’t plain line as they would’ve needed to change the bearers.

WCML blockade on for Carstairs

Long possession on between Church Fenton and Holgate Jn.

New crossing going in tonight and I believe they are going to use the sleepers as hotels at Glasgow and Euston.

 

[JamieL]

Couldn’t have been a worse place.

You would have thought then that someone would have gamed this scenario.

 

[zwk500]

You would have thought then that someone would have gamed this scenario.

As mentioned earlier, what else can you reasonably do?

 

[Peter Sarf]

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1660210395804585986?t=a0ldzsuGybrjUm03ZVwAkQ&s=19

And here's a picture of the offending item.
I guess that there are diversionary routes for diesels but it could hardly be in a worse location for electrics.

I notice a pandrol clip adrift in the ballast to the left of an empty place. Wonder if that had been out of place for a while ?.

How quickly would a crack like that migrate from visible to all the way through ?.

I presume some very slow speed passes would be possible BUT not once the engineers get there and start ripping out the offending track section.

How difficult would it have been to divert York - Leeds - Doncaster?

Presumably possible but not easy enough?

Dead easy - no wait no knitting West of Neville Hill (can only hope one day).

Where are the works on the WCML?

No need to go to Leeds - the issue is at Colton Jn so could have done Hambleton South-Gascoigne Wood-Church Fenton -York (or via Knottingly and Milford if easier for route knowledge). Although that would have meant no train hotel power as the 92 would have to pan down and I think battery isolated, while the diesel on the front would not have been able to provide it's own ETS (if it has it) to the train.

Leeds-Church Fenton has no wires at all, Church Fenton-Colton has wires up but they're not energised yet. So only route past Colton Jn needs a diesel.

Perhaps would have needed a 73 or TWO to keep both sets of eight intelligent coaches happy.

Completely agree.

I would guess the early Pendolinos will be very very busy to get to London tomorrow.

It would be the "joined up rail" thing to do, to give some kind of vouchers to CS Passengers for food/drink on the morning train, as something that would cost almost nothing to offer, but would, as you say, go a little way to make a bad experience into a slightly less bad experience.

Would also be interested to know how crewing works in these situations, as presumably crews are out of place and the knock on to their next days off ...

I would guess that on a Friday night / Saturday morning, everyone goes back to their home base, and then departs from their home base on a Sunday night ? Or am I being too logical ?

I think the driver and guard usually swap somewhere around Carlisle-Preston so they always end up back at the same end of routes every morning that they left the night before. The sleeper stewards would have been on duty all night so maybe only suitable way to get them to the other end would be on whatever day train ran early enough. And the Stewards probably prefer to be back at home for the day so some would want to get to the other end but the rest would want to stay at the end there were stranded at !.

 

[zwk500]

I notice a pandrol clip adrift in the ballast to the left of an empty place. Wonder if that had been out of place for a while ?.

Looks to me like the sleeper cracked with the rail, which would have popped the clip out.

How quickly would a crack like that migrate from visible to all the way through ?.

Potentially quite quickly, although you'd have hoped the UTU would have seen it if it were taking it's time.

Perhaps would have needed a 73 or TWO to keep both sets of eight intelligent coaches happy.

Hmm, may have had to drop a highlander portion then if 2x 73s would be shifting the Lowlander.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Looks to me like the sleeper cracked with the rail, which would have popped the clip out.

Potentially quite quickly, although you'd have hoped the UTU would have seen it if it were taking it's time.

Hmm, may have had to drop a highlander portion then if 2x 73s would be shifting the Lowlander.

Yeah a few hills if going via North of Carlisle would require an add on any diesel. Was thinking 2x73s for the hotel power + intelligence power and another diesel for the pulling power but not strictly necessary for the bit between Colton Junction (?) and Neville Hill. Probably complicate shunting at Edinburgh though. Would need a DIT 92 kept in formation ready for the bit South of Leeds/Neville-Hill

 

[popeter45]

Suspect at the end of the day they looked at alternatives and came to the conclusion they would be either way too complex to implement in time or not worth it if everyone is getting refunded anyway

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Are the 73s cleared to work south of Edinburgh and Glasgow? And do the crews who work south of Glasgow and Edinburgh sign the 73s?

 

[najaB]

You would have thought then that someone would have gamed this scenario.

Most likely they did and the answer was "Put the punters up in the Sleeper overnight and let them travel down in the morning". The Sleeper already runs at a loss on each passenger, so adding additional expense to ensure that an alternative routing was available isn't good use of taxpayer's money. Doubly so, given that some of it would have been spent whether the diversion was actually needed on the day (night) or not.

 

[zwk500]

Are the 73s cleared to work south of Edinburgh and Glasgow?

Certainly cleared in the LNE sectional appendix.

And do the crews who work south of Glasgow and Edinburgh sign the 73s?

Unlikely.

 

[Mag_seven]

Are the 73s cleared to work south of Edinburgh and Glasgow? And do the crews who work south of Glasgow and Edinburgh sign the 73s?

I doubt even two class 73s could muster up enough "hotel power" for a 16 coach rake let alone haul it up Beattock and Shap.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Certainly cleared in the LNE sectional appendix.

Unlikely.

Thanks for that. Interesting that they are cleared in the LNE Sectional App. I presume that isn't just to clear them from Edinburgh to Craigentinny. The lack of driver knowledge south of Edinburgh and Glasgow is what I expected. I would have been amazed if those drivers did sign. That lack of driver knowledge alone would rule out any contingency plan involving the 73s. Using the trains as hotels in London, Glasgow and Edinburgh tonight is least worst option in the circumstances.

 

[MotCO]

Couldn’t have been a worse place.

They couldn’t plain line as they would’ve needed to change the bearers.

WCML blockade on for Carstairs

Long possession on between Church Fenton and Holgate Jn.

New crossing going in tonight and I believe they are going to use the sleepers as hotels at Glasgow and Euston.

If the new crossing is going in tonight, will the line be open in the early hours, in which case can the sleeper services start out aiming to get to the crossing when it is fixed?

 

[zwk500]

Thanks for that. Interesting that they are cleared in the LNE Sectional App. I presume that isn't just to clear them from Edinburgh to Craigentinny.

They appear to have been assessed over nearly every route, so I'd guess somebody wanted the paperwork doing. GBRF used to use 73s on RHTTs in the south, maybe there were plans for that as well? I didn't check Scotland or LNW(N) SA's.

The lack of driver knowledge south of Edinburgh and Glasgow is what I expected. I would have been amazed if those drivers did sign. That lack of driver knowledge alone would rule out any contingency plan involving the 73s. Using the trains as hotels in London, Glasgow and Edinburgh tonight is least worst option in the circumstances.

I have no idea on the driver knowledge, but yes given the need for a qualified shunter anywhere loco changes were due to take place, parking the trains up overnight is the least worst option.

 

[Davester50]

Thanks for that. Interesting that they are cleared in the LNE Sectional App. I presume that isn't just to clear them from Edinburgh to Craigentinny. The lack of driver knowledge south of Edinburgh and Glasgow is what I expected. I would have been amazed if those drivers did sign. That lack of driver knowledge alone would rule out any contingency plan involving the 73s. Using the trains as hotels in London, Glasgow and Edinburgh tonight is least worst option in the circumstances.

They appear to have been assessed over nearly every route, so I'd guess somebody wanted the paperwork doing. GBRF used to use 73s on RHTTs in the south, maybe there were plans for that as well? I didn't check Scotland or LNW(N) SA's.

Haven't the sleeper 73s been down to Loughborough for repairs under their own power?

 

[popeter45]

One thing I'm surprised wasn't considered was running a 221 on the diversion route for Glasgow and a 800 on the ecml via Leeds route

Not a bed but for those who need to be in London at 7am better than nothing

 

[zwk500]

One thing I'm surprised wasn't considered was running a 221 on the diversion route for Glasgow and a 800 on the ecml via Leeds route

Not a bed but for those who need to be in London at 7am better than nothing

would Avanti and LNER have the drivers available to do such a thing?

 

[800001]

One thing I'm surprised wasn't considered was running a 221 on the diversion route for Glasgow and a 800 on the ecml via Leeds route

Not a bed but for those who need to be in London at 7am better than nothing

LNER struggle to staff there normal timetable at the moment due to industrial action (work to rule, no overtime etc), where do you suggest they get the crew to staff an extra train over night.

It's not just CS, it's trashed LNER services today as well. Lots of cancellations showing, some trains have got through but showing heavy delays south of York so presumably either running wrong line or going via a diversionary route.

Services were running bi-directional with the use of a pilot man.
This allowed 1 train per hour in each direction to run.

 

[paul1609]

As mentioned above, the 73 could stay on the end at Edinburgh and (perhaps with assistance from a 66) drag the train via the Tyne Valley to Carlisle, where it would detach and await the northbound train to return to Edinburgh via the same route.

Can a 73 provide ETS for a 16 coach train? I'd have thought not.

 

[najaB]

Can a 73 provide ETS for a 16 coach train? I'd have thought not.

As noted above, two would just about be able to provide it for a full rake. A single one definitely would not.

 

[Bill57p9]

As noted above, two would just about be able to provide it for a full rake. A single one definitely would not.

And it would need to be top & tail with an ETS split in the middle: you can't just add ETS through locos on the front, plus AFAIK the CS 73s generate 800v ETS whereas 1.5kV ETS is required for a load 16 due to the 600A limit of ETS cabling and connectors. The 92s were fitted with this special high voltage ETS from new for Nightstar stock.

The bottom line is that no alternative route is realistic.

Should be the 'home' crews tonight, being a Sunday night, so you would imagine that they just go home on Monday, then switch mid-way with the 'away' crews on Monday night to get them back in the right place.

When running via WCML, the Lowlander crews swap at Preston if required. It Highlander crews need to swap an additional stop is added at Lockerbie.

One thing I'm surprised wasn't considered was running a 221 on the diversion route for Glasgow and a 800 on the ecml via Leeds route

Gretna junction is also closed on Sundays currently so that is be a no-go.

 

[Falcon1200]

Fully agree about your point about CS doing all they could here though - this is Network Rail's incompetence over failing to contingency plan ECML failure concurrent with the Carstairs works.

This was a unique and unfortunate combination of circumstances; A serious defect requiring immediate repair, which could only reasonably be carried out with a blockage during the night, and four trains which do not usually go this way and which, due to their nature, are extremely difficult to divert, especially on a short-notice unplanned basis. There are Contingency Plans in place for line blockages and restrictions, however it is impossible to plan for, and provide standby resources which 99% of the time will not be required, for every possibility.

 

[jagardner1984]

And to be fair, CS have gone to considerable lengths to keep services going of late, with multiple diversions especially around Carstairs, Aberdeen works and one a year or so back around Manchester, and recently diverting into Kings Cross.

On the 73 point, if a 73 needs some help to get 8 into Inverness, you’d imagine 2 would need more than a little to get over Shap or Beattock, regardless of ETS requirements.

I think, whilst there are obviously some extreme diversions by which physically a vehicle could get from London to some point in Scotland, I’d concur with CS’ Line (obviously simplified for customer clarity purposes) that to all intents and purposes, the railway between England and Scotland was closed last night.

It does occur to me that, in another world where there was sufficient capacity, rolling stock and staff, pathing a “runs as required” service with the “spare” Pendolino or Azuma in both directions at say 0700 would be a good “one railway” approach to mopping up disruption and carry over passengers, of which from the sleeper and from LNER cancellations yesterday, I would imagine there are many this morning, and would allow them all to travel in a little more comfort. It is after all a “once in a blue moon” event.

 

[800001]

And to be fair, CS have gone to considerable lengths to keep services going of late, with multiple diversions especially around Carstairs, Aberdeen works and one a year or so back around Manchester, and recently diverting into Kings Cross.

On the 73 point, if a 73 needs some help to get 8 into Inverness, you’d imagine 2 would need more than a little to get over Shap or Beattock, regardless of ETS requirements.

I think, whilst there are obviously some extreme diversions by which physically a vehicle could get from London to some point in Scotland, I’d concur with CS’ Line (obviously simplified for customer clarity purposes) that to all intents and purposes, the railway between England and Scotland was closed last night.

It does occur to me that, in another world where there was sufficient capacity, rolling stock and staff, pathing a “runs as required” service with the “spare” Pendolino or Azuma in both directions at say 0700 would be a good “one railway” approach to mopping up disruption and carry over passengers, of which from the sleeper and from LNER cancellations yesterday, I would imagine there are many this morning, and would allow them all to travel in a little more comfort. It is after all a “once in a blue moon” event.

LNER have acceptance with CS today, allowing CS customers to travel on any LNER service today to completely their journey.