Caledonian Sleeper

[Bletchleyite]

I actually think this shouldn’t matter if you are on a £10 West Midlands advance or a £250 Classic CS booking - it shouldn’t matter, somewhere warm, dry and safe to wait with your luggage and your young kids half an hour before boarding your super long distance train is really not an unreasonable ask.

Euston is warm and dry and is not unsafe. There's plenty of seating dotted around, in particular on and under the mezzanine and in the area that used to be the independent newsagent near P12. There are also bars etc.

I never understand why people collect in that manky area by the toilets. I think the intention of it is that people can sit there and wait while e.g. their kids use the loo, but as you say people use it as a waiting room and it's a right pain when they do.

Quoting @Meerkat (sorry, the header didn't work properly):

Do they know they haven’t paid for a waiting room, and will have to sit on a platform?

The only seating on a platform at Euston is on 8-11. This is just people picking a really strange area of the station to sit and wait, outside the stinking toilets on seats intended for short term occupation while children/partner/whoever uses the loo.

 

[Meerkat]

Euston is warm and dry and is not unsafe. There's plenty of seating dotted around, in particular on and under the mezzanine and in the area that used to be the independent newsagent near P12. There are also bars etc.

I never understand why people collect in that manky area by the toilets. I think the intention of it is that people can sit there and wait while e.g. their kids use the loo, but as you say people use it as a waiting room and it's a right pain when they do.

Quoting @Meerkat (sorry, the header didn't work properly):



The only seating on a platform at Euston is on 8-11. This is just people picking a really strange area of the station to sit and wait, outside the stinking toilets on seats intended for short term occupation while children/partner/whoever uses the loo.

Does it feel nicely safe at the time they are arriving and waiting?
I would guess the paranoia about being in the right place at the right time for an expensive one off train means they want to be on/near the platform, particularly if they have luggage. And there is a natural instinct to get as near to your destination and then look for where to wait. They may also have seen that there is a Sleeper lounge (on a map or website) without realising it isnt for the plebs.

 

[BRX]

The only seating on a platform at Euston is on 8-11. This is just people picking a really strange area of the station to sit and wait, outside the stinking toilets on seats intended for short term occupation while children/partner/whoever uses the loo.

Not quite sure what you mean here. The area being discussed is near the end of Platform 1 (where the sleeper is waiting), after you've gone down the ramps and just outside the ticket gates. There's no seating there.

After I took this photo, the crowd grew larger and extended off to the left out of frame. At some point it seemed obvious the departure had been listed on the boards on the main concourse because suddenly quite a lot of extra people arrived. But they were then kept waiting for about 15 minutes before anyone was let through to the train.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Do they know they haven’t paid for a waiting room, and will have to sit on a platform?
I think not

CS make it quite clear who can use it and who can't. So I'd say, yes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does it feel nicely safe at the time they are arriving and waiting?

I've never considered inside Euston to feel unsafe at any time of day. There are always people around including staff. Outside might, but there's no need to wait outside.

I would guess the paranoia about being in the right place at the right time for an expensive one off train means they want to be on/near the platform, particularly if they have luggage. And there is a natural instinct to get as near to your destination and then look for where to wait.

Which until the platform goes up is the concourse. Where there are seats (at the back, upstairs and in the lounge area I mentioned).

Nobody has to go and hang around at the end of P1. They might choose to, but that's on them if they do.

 

[jagardner1984]

Yes, they have other places to go - but for whatever reason a large number of people choose to go to the end of Platform 1, as they did last night @BRX photo is pretty much exactly where the large queue was.

It is an interesting reflection to criticise those who do (Some kept waiting for quite some time and were quite upset) rather than pondering whether the other options are sufficiently available, signposted and attractive enough for people to wait in.

For example, for some travellers for whom English may not be their first language, the phrase "Boarding at 2025" might be taken to mean the airline terminology "I need to be there to board at 2025" - whereas in this terminology what CS actually mean is "unless you have guest lounge access, please wait in the waiting area at the other end of the station until at least 2025".

It is an interesting thing to see, quite often on these boards, a "the system is fine, I understand it, those people are idiots" rather than pondering whether perhaps something might be done to either welcome people better, provide a waiting location, for which there is ample space, on or closer to Platform 1 for people travelling with young children or heavy luggage, who may not wish to move all of the above twice, or direct people with more clarity to the better options available, for example, might it be possible for CS to have a presence in the waiting room as they do at the end of P1. Some might suggest that the presence of the train on P1 in CS Branding, and the staff in CS Uniforms, numerous references to P1 lounge on the CS Website, and a large grouping of people holding CS tickets, might suggest to travellers otherwise unfamiliar that this was the place they were supposed to be.

Anecdotally, some of those waiting at the end of P1 who I spoke to were concerned about getting a seat in the Club Car, for which they were under the impression it was "first come, first served" - and this also encourages a "board first" approach.

It reminds me in some ways of a thing I read about "desire lines" in public places, where users ignore the swooping lines of pedestrian paths and take the (to them) more obvious and direct route to their destination. Is the damage to the non path that people walk along indicative of users at fault, or of designers not adapting sufficiently to the needs of the users of the place ?

 

[BRX]

It reminds me in some ways of a thing I read about "desire lines" in public places, where users ignore the swooping lines of pedestrian paths and take the (to them) more obvious and direct route to their destination. Is the damage to the non path that people walk along indicative of users at fault, or of designers not adapting sufficiently to the needs of the users of the place ?

Well put.

 

[Sealink]

Staff being rude isn't very good, though, is it? Surely it should be "I'm afraid that toilet is only for seated car passengers, Sir, can you use this toilet here please? By the way I'm really sorry yours isn't working, what is your room number? OK, I'll make sure a full refund is on the way to your card, nothing else for you to do, you'll receive it in a few days."

These are premium passengers who have paid a fortune and should be treated in the deferential and polite manner they would be in a premium hotel, not a motorway service station Travelodge.

Indeed. In fact I was looking to book a berth to Inverness, on the day I need to travel they only have seated available, and the next day it's £285. This is for middle of August.

 

[Bill57p9]

One quick question on the topic of unusual track and the sleeper - some lost time last night because of a coach fault on the Fort William (Coach E - fully cancelled) which they have largely caught up.

Took the Falkirk High route to save some minutes which made me think - how many if any passenger trains regularly take the North West chord of the Cowlairs triangle (between Ashfield and Eastfield depot)

Can’t think of many others.

Interesting experience on some of these less used sections - the ferocity with which the vegetation batters the sides of the train makes you wonder how much of the vinyl will be left by the time it reaches Fort William !

There used to be a summer Sunday direct Edinburgh - Oban (and return) which also used the Cowlairs north west chord, however this has been withdrawn and the additional Summer Sunday Oban service will now start at Glasgow Queen Street.

All of which has me thinking: has the passenger service withdrawal process been followed?

 

[tram21]

Personally, if I were travelling abroad I'd weigh up the options on price and what each one does or doesn't include. These people know they've not paid for the lounge. They're not surprised. They're not annoyed. They know what they've purchased.

I definitely felt this in my trip last year, I didn't mind waiting in the cold and less than luxurious waiting area at Fort William as I made a conscious choice to not pay the £60 odd difference to upgrade to club.

 

[Sleepy]

CS make it quite clear who can use it and who can't. So I'd say, yes.

If everyone is trying to board at the time it's advertised to start from then perhaps they should advise different times when booking by cabin type to avoid this ? Alternatively look at GWR's boarding procedure which seems to work well - at Paddington you just board the train and the sleeper host for your coach will come to your cabin to check you in and inspect your tickets. I've no idea of the staffing numbers for the Cal Sleeper these days however.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

Staff being rude isn't very good, though, is it? Surely it should be "I'm afraid that toilet is only for seated car passengers, Sir, can you use this toilet here please? By the way I'm really sorry yours isn't working, what is your room number? OK, I'll make sure a full refund is on the way to your card, nothing else for you to do, you'll receive it in a few days."

These are premium passengers who have paid a fortune and should be treated in the deferential and polite manner they would be in a premium hotel, not a motorway service station Travelodge.

At risk of going off topic: entirely agree, except that in my experience Travelodge staff (and those of similar chains) are as polite as those of much more expensive hotels, and often more friendly and agreeable.

 

[Meerkat]

CS make it quite clear who can use it and who can't. So I'd say, yes.

If you book non-club does it show a big notice saying you can’t use the lounge, stay on the concourse?

I've never considered inside Euston to feel unsafe at any time of day.

You are a railway person, and frequent user of Euston. Even if not unsafe, stations can be uneasy when pretty empty in the evenings, with a few noisy drunks wandering about.

Which until the platform goes up is the concourse. Where there are seats (at the back, upstairs and in the lounge area I mentioned).

Nobody has to go and hang around at the end of P1. They might choose to, but that's on them if they do.

This is very railway - the railway is right, its the customers’ fault.
Those seats don’t sound very near the train, which the passengers must catch and they can’t see.
Never been to an airport and thought “loads of time“ then gone through a doorway and seen a reeeeeaaaally long corridor ahead of you?
They want to be near the train, especially if they have loads of luggage. Preferably inside the barriers so they have cleared the “yes you are on this train” stage.

 

[Deafdoggie]

If you book non-club does it show a big notice saying you can’t use the lounge, stay on the concourse?

Yes. It very clearly shows you the differences when you book. I can't believe anyone books without knowing.

 

[danchester]

This is very railway - the railway is right, its the customers’ fault.
Those seats don’t sound very near the train, which the passengers must catch and they can’t see.
Never been to an airport and thought “loads of time“ then gone through a doorway and seen a reeeeeaaaally long corridor ahead of you?
They want to be near the train, especially if they have loads of luggage. Preferably inside the barriers so they have cleared the “yes you are on this train” stage.

Indeed. This will be especially true if there is any kind of incentive to board before other people, which there is (at least perceived to be) here in the case of club car availability.

And fundamentally this isn't your average train, so passengers (many of whom will be first timers, or at least not regulars) will not display average behaviour, and there are perfectly good reasons for this. I know that if I am very unfamiliar with the system - for example when I'm abroad - or taking a specific service that is crucial to not miss (or would benefit from early boarding if it happens) like a night train, I will get there early and will ideally want to have the train in sight while I wait. I don't think that is unreasonable. It is a shame that the layout of Euston means that trains and the state of boarding are not visible from the waiting area.

Indeed last time I took the Nightjet from Paris I was there early and hovered near the platform, and this resulted in me boarding half an hour earlier than the advertised boarding time, well before most people - I appreciated the extra time this gave me to get comfortable (and avail myself of the complementary drink) and probably enabled allowed me more sleep. CS are stricter with boarding times so I perhaps wouldn't bother doing the same at Euston, but I appreciate why others who are less familiar with it would want to try. It's not like the rest of Euston is a delightful place to hang around.

 

[35B]

Yes. It very clearly shows you the differences when you book. I can't believe anyone books without knowing.

That assumes (a) that they have done their own booking, (b) have paid full attention during the booking process, and (c) have remembered that information on the day of travel.

Despite being an experienced rail traveller, who does his own booking, I have been tripped up by both (b) and (c) at times before.

A customer oriented organisation would assume that signposting is required even where all my conditions are satisfied, and therefore address the needs of those who don't satisfy one or more of them.

 

[Deafdoggie]

That assumes (a) that they have done their own booking, (b) have paid full attention during the booking process, and (c) have remembered that information on the day of travel.

Despite being an experienced rail traveller, who does his own booking, I have been tripped up by both (b) and (c) at times before.

A customer oriented organisation would assume that signposting is required even where all my conditions are satisfied, and therefore address the needs of those who don't satisfy one or more of them.

How much signposting would you give? Given you're stating people can't remember what they have booked, can't read their booking confirmation & haven't bothered to check anything.
It's a wonder they managed to get to Euston at all.

 

[Meerkat]

Yes. It very clearly shows you the differences when you book. I can't believe anyone books without knowing.

At what point - I got to the cabin/club/seat selector stage and it says ‘station lounge access‘ on those that get it, but doesn’t say ‘wait in the cold sitting on your suitcase‘ for those who don’t get lounge access.

Not having a nearby waiting room is crazy for a product sold as a nice way to travel.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If you book non-club does it show a big notice saying you can’t use the lounge, stay on the concourse?

You are a railway person, and frequent user of Euston. Even if not unsafe, stations can be uneasy when pretty empty in the evenings, with a few noisy drunks wandering about.

This is very railway - the railway is right, its the customers’ fault.
Those seats don’t sound very near the train, which the passengers must catch and they can’t see.
Never been to an airport and thought “loads of time“ then gone through a doorway and seen a reeeeeaaaally long corridor ahead of you?
They want to be near the train, especially if they have loads of luggage. Preferably inside the barriers so they have cleared the “yes you are on this train” stage.

I agree but there are some air travel considerations. The airline are not going to easily leave a passenger behind after they have checked in their bags. An exception but I have hit one really long corridor so to speak at Heathrow Terminal three and I think the departure gate was 31 - it was an incredibly long way from the duty free area I was trying to get my party out of !. It seemed further than country end of Euston Platform 1 to country end of platform 15. Had I known !.

Indeed. This will be especially true if there is any kind of incentive to board before other people, which there is (at least perceived to be) here in the case of club car availability.

And fundamentally this isn't your average train, so passengers (many of whom will be first timers, or at least not regulars) will not display average behaviour, and there are perfectly good reasons for this. I know that if I am very unfamiliar with the system - for example when I'm abroad - or taking a specific service that is crucial to not miss (or would benefit from early boarding if it happens) like a night train, I will get there early and will ideally want to have the train in sight while I wait. I don't think that is unreasonable. It is a shame that the layout of Euston means that trains and the state of boarding are not visible from the waiting area.

Indeed last time I took the Nightjet from Paris I was there early and hovered near the platform, and this resulted in me boarding half an hour earlier than the advertised boarding time, well before most people - I appreciated the extra time this gave me to get comfortable (and avail myself of the complementary drink) and probably enabled allowed me more sleep. CS are stricter with boarding times so I perhaps wouldn't bother doing the same at Euston, but I appreciate why others who are less familiar with it would want to try. It's not like the rest of Euston is a delightful place to hang around.

I will tend to get to a major journey start point early and try and be as near as possible to the moving object.

How much signposting would you give? Given you're stating people can't remember what they have booked, can't read their booking confirmation & haven't bothered to check anything.
It's a wonder they managed to get to Euston at all.

Well. I would expect people will be putting more effort into getting to Euston on-time/early than digesting and memorising bits of information about where you can or cannot wait.

 

[BRX]

When you book a "normal" cabin the only info you are given is that it leaves from Euston and boarding (for the Highlander) is from 8.30 for a 9.15 departure.

Last time I travelled, boarding did not open for "normals" until 8.45.

Better information would be:
- Give the true time that boarding opens
- Advise that passengers wait on the main Euston concourse until that time ... or until the platform is announced on the main boards (and make that happen at the right time, relative to boarding actually opening)
- Maybe even advise passengers that there's no seating at the platform, so they would be more comfortable waiting on the concourse until boarding opens
- Have some basic, clearly visible signage and maybe even a staff member in that area at the head of platform one (outside the gates), maybe close to the bottom of the ramp, that tells passengers what's happening, for example, when boarding opens, for both trains, with a list of destinations so that people can check that yes that's the train I need and yes that's when I should be ready at the gates, and possibly no I don't actually need to be down here yet and can go and wait somewhere more comfortable for half an hour.

Having all the staff members inside the ticket gates is no use to people arriving at the back of the gathering crowd.

 

[danbarjon]

(delete if someone has already said) Caledonian Sleeper has applied for a stop at Birmingham International.

Sale of access rights - Network Rail

All passenger and freight train operators who want to use our network require a track access contract, dealt with by our customer teams.

www.networkrail.co.uk

22.05.2024 - Caledonian Sleeper Limited - Section 17 - 9th SA - Closes 22.06.2024 is the named application

Aspirations to call at Birmingham International – highlighting the aspiration within this application in response to the ORR letter dated 24 April 2024. Capacity for this aspiration as of yet has not been confirmed. CSL has not yet had the opportunity to consult with Network Rail on these matters, but is happy to do so. We have submitted this application in line with ORR requirements to ensure that our position is preserved.

 

[Statto]

Awful night for the sleepers due to the derailment in Cumbria, both Southbound sleepers are currently waiting at Penrith, the Northbound Highlander has just got past the incident, the Northbound Lowlander has just left Preston, but will get caught up in it

 

[norbitonflyer]

Southbound Lowlander should have got to Euston by now, but has only made it as far as Crewe, about 3 hours late
Northbound Highlander now at Edinburgh, also about 3 hours late (and showing the Inverness portion as terminating there because of a separate incident)
The other two both at Penrith, the northbound lowlander about 2 hours late (should be arriving in Glasgow/Edinburgh about now), and the southbound Highlander about 4 hours late

 

[Statto]

Southbound Lowlander should have got to Euston by now, but has only made it as far as Crewe, about 3 hours late
Northbound Highlander now at Edinburgh, also about 3 hours late (and showing the Inverness portion as terminating there because of a separate incident)
The other two both at Penrith, the northbound lowlander about 2 hours late (should be arriving in Glasgow/Edinburgh about now), and the southbound Highlander about 4 hours late

The Southbound Highlander has been stuck in the Penrith area since around 03.20, should be getting cleared to move soon, although their is a Northbound AWC at Oxenholme

 

[Mike395]

Hoping the Southbound Highlander makes it - I’m supposed to be on the northbound tonight!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Hoping the Southbound Highlander makes it - I’m supposed to be on the northbound tonight!

Don't they swap about, so the southbound Lowlander one night forms the northbound Highlander the next night?

 

[Statto]

Southbound Highlander has been cleared to move, with it being so late i wouldn't be surprised if that gets terminated at Crewe (or even maybe Preston), then moves ECS to Wembley.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Southbound Highlander has been cleared to move, with it being so late i wouldn't be surprised if that gets terminated at Crewe (or even maybe Preston), then moves ECS to Wembley.

Now on tghe move, approaching Oxenholme five down (that's hours, not minutes)

 

[Caleb2010]

Been told we’re going to Euston on the highlander and the expected arrival time is midday!

 

[Mike395]

Don't they swap about, so the southbound Lowlander one night forms the northbound Highlander the next night?

Ah didn't realise that was normal practice (it would definitely make sense tonight - allows more time for prep off the super-late arrival from today)