Cambrian hourly service consultation

[Gareth Marston]

Sounds like a pleasant turn of events Is Welshpool the one which has two platforms, only one of which is used at present? By extension, if the hourly service goes ahead, they will need to use both?

The last Down uses the reinstated double track all other trains the other line. Any additional services would need to cross on the double track section which starts just to the north of the platforms at Welshpool and extends to Fron.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Sounds like a pleasant turn of events Is Welshpool the one which has two platforms, only one of which is used at present? By extension, if the hourly service goes ahead, they will need to use both?

Dovey Junction, Machynlleth, Newtown and Welshpool all have a passing loop and two platforms, but trains currently aren't scheduled to pass at any of them (they use different platforms depending on direction of travel at Newtown and Machynlleth though, and both platforms at Dovey Junction are used (although the passing loop isn't)).

Will all five loops (including the one with no station whose name I cannot spell (it begins with T)) be scheduled passing places on the hourly service or will it just be Dovey Junction, middle-of-nowhere and Welshpool?

And another question, does the fact there used to be a Cambrian Coast steam service mean that line actually has the infrustructure necessary for an hourly service* (although it won't be getting one of course)?

* Assuming of course that the infrustructure was still intact and hadn't been washed away by the recent storms.

 

[transmanche]

including the one with no station whose name I cannot spell (it begins with T))

Talerddig? (Between Caersws and Machynlleth).

 

[Gareth Marston]

Dovey Junction, Machynlleth, Newtown and Welshpool all have a passing loop and two platforms, but trains currently aren't scheduled to pass at any of them (they use different platforms depending on direction of travel at Newtown and Machynlleth though, and both platforms at Dovey Junction are used (although the passing loop isn't)).

Will all five loops (including the one with no station whose name I cannot spell (it begins with T)) be scheduled passing places on the hourly service or will it just be Dovey Junction, middle-of-nowhere and Welshpool?

And another question, does the fact there used to be a Cambrian Coast steam service mean that line actually has the infrustructure necessary for an hourly service* (although it won't be getting one of course)?

* Assuming of course that the infrustructure was still intact and hadn't been washed away by the recent storms.

We'll it would appear the answers to these questions have found their way out of planning to Machynlleth depot.

 

[The Planner]

You couldn't do an hourly and steam without knocking an ATW out in certain hours unless it has all suddenly changed.

 

[merlodlliw]

We'll it would appear the answers to these questions have found their way out of planning to Machynlleth depot.

I have alerted various people, we will soon know whats happening,in my opinion it will be some, not all hourly services,like the Bidston line.
If it does occur? Welsh Government must be juggling the accounts,so who will the loser be,as it will be from Revenue accounts, it can not be from roadways in my opinion.

Bob

 

[Squaddie]

I have alerted various people, we will soon know whats happening,in my opinion it will be some, not all hourly services,like the Bidston line.
If it does occur? Welsh Government must be juggling the accounts,so who will the loser be,as it will be from Revenue accounts, it can not be from roadways in my opinion.

Why the constant negativity, Bob?

You and Gareth have been demanding an hourly service on this line for years (something, by the way, that I agree with, as I believe that every railway line in the country should see at least one train per hour), and now that it is rumoured that it might actually become a reality your primary concern seems to be where the money will come from, and which other projects will be "the losers".

It really does seem that the Welsh Government, Network Rail and ATW will never be able to right in your eyes.

 

[Rhydgaled]

You couldn't do an hourly and steam without knocking an ATW out in certain hours unless it has all suddenly changed.

I meant hourly instead of steam, given there is no steam at the moment. I'm not currently suggesting there should be an hourly service on the Cambrian Coast anyway, just wondering if there happened to be enough loops to permit it.

Back to the Cambrian mainline, and I do wonder where the money and, in particular, the rolling stock will come from. It'll be great to have an hourly service on the Cambrian main line I just hope there isn't much suffering elsewhere to allow it. WAG air and WAG air bus (TrawsCymru T9) spring to mind as sources of funding, if I had my way, but rolling stock is a rather hard problem to solve. I doubt it can be done in an acceptable manner without sub-leasing some 158s or bringing in some LHCS (aren't FirstGW shortly to be doing both of those things?). If WAG increased ATW's LHCS allocation to 4x 67+mrk3+DVT rakes (an additional 67 and DVT, plus six to eight standard mrk3s) could you require three of them in service each day?

 

[anthony263]

The welsh government can save some money from scrapping the T9 and getting Cardiff bus to reinstate their service X91 to Cardiff Airport on a 30-40 minutely frequency as well as pulling the plug on other things such as Gerald.

I do have a concern about whether the Fishguard trial will continue especially if some of the funding for these extra cambrian service comes for there. That said there has been speculation that the money for the Fishguard trial was taking from the Cambrian pot (Not that we have ever been able to proove it)

 

[Rhydgaled]

The welsh government can save some money from scrapping the T9 and getting Cardiff bus to reinstate their service X91 to Cardiff Airport on a 30-40 minutely frequency

I don't think they even need the X91 to go to the airport, what's wrong with just having the shuttle bus to Rhoose station?

I do have a concern about whether the Fishguard trial will continue especially if some of the funding for these extra cambrian service comes for there.

Scrapping the Fishguard service would certainly help fund the Cambrian service, but it wouldn't solve the rolling stock issue (except perhaps if they close the line completely, assuming the 158 I was told would be put on the boat train was actually delivered).

 

[0B00]

Tenders have been invited for buses to replace trains all day between Aberystwyth and Machynlleth on Monday 3/3/14, Tuesday 4/3/14 and Wednesday 5/3/14.

A rather unusual request for a normal working school weekday.

Might this be connected with this ?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Tenders have been invited for buses to replace trains all day between Aberystwyth and Machynlleth on Monday 3/3/14, Tuesday 4/3/14 and Wednesday 5/3/14.

A rather unusual request for a normal working school weekday.

Might this be connected with this ?

It does sound like an odd request. There weren't any single line occupation concerns between Aberystwyth and Dovey Junction though were there? Maybe lack of use of Dovey loop means it requires commisioning again? Or to save stock so they can test hourly between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury (although rail services don't seem to bother with the 'ghost running' Metrolink does when they launch a new service)?

 

[The Planner]

Steel sleeper relaying between 85m 15ch and 95m 60ch

 

[jones_bangor]

I have alerted various people, we will soon know whats happening,in my opinion it will be some, not all hourly services,like the Bidston line.
If it does occur? Welsh Government must be juggling the accounts,so who will the loser be,as it will be from Revenue accounts, it can not be from roadways in my opinion.

The most practical way for ATW to free up some 158s is to use more LHCS ("push-pull") on North - South services.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The implementation Group held its last meeting on 22nd and will get the final report to the Minister by 1st February.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why the constant negativity, Bob?

You and Gareth have been demanding an hourly service on this line for years (something, by the way, that I agree with, as I believe that every railway line in the country should see at least one train per hour), and now that it is rumoured that it might actually become a reality your primary concern seems to be where the money will come from, and which other projects will be "the losers".

It really does seem that the Welsh Government, Network Rail and ATW will never be able to right in your eyes.

The hourly service is someone else's concept if it means restored connections between the coast line and Aberystwyth, improves commuting opportunities and adds seating capacity then I support it. The phrase hourly service was coined to help politicians support the above which was deemed a bit to complex for them by Central Trains management.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Steel sleeper relaying between 85m 15ch and 95m 60ch

That's Ynyslas all the way up to the platform at Aberystwyth.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The most practical way for ATW to free up some 158s is to use more LHCS ("push-pull") on North - South services.

Why north-south services? I doubt many of them are the busiest services and given the cost of additional stock the extra rolling stock should be deployed to maximise the benifits.

The ATW standard class mrk3s I think have 70 seats each, that's 210 in a 2+3 set or 280 in a 2+4 set. Thus even a 2+3 would provide arround 20 more seats than a 3-car 175.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, find the two busiest (throughout) 3-car 175 diagrams (which are probably north Wales - Manchester diagrams) and stick the additional LHCS on those, providing useful extra capacity. Then you can use the two freed 175s to release two 158s* for the Cambrian.

Depending on capacity requirements, you could replace two 2-car 175s with the 3-car ones released by the LHCS, again providing useful additional capacity and providing 2-car 175s rather than 3-car ones to replace the 158s.

* I suggest the Chester to Holyhead leg of Holyhead-Birmingham, since this means you don't increase the number of diagrams which have to be 158s due to ERTMS.

 

[anthony263]

ATW have stated in the latest issue of Modern Railways is that they would like to get Cardiff - Manchester to under 3 hours which is possible with the class 175 fleet and perhaps the 158's but I doubt it with the loco hauled sets.

The Cardiff - Holyhead route is the Welsh Governments little project so if they were to fund loco hauled sets this would be the route I would suspect they would put them on. ATW should be able to free up at least one unit on the Cardiff - Holyhead route if they can reverse trains at Cardiff Central in platforms 3 or 4 with trains arriving into Cardiff at least 5 minutes or more before they are timed to return north.

ATW will have to hire in some mark 2 carriages those as I doubt they would be able to form more than 2 rakes with the mark3's available. Chiltern will need more mark3's in the next couple of years on their services to Birmingham.

Quick question how many units are diagramed for the Cardiff - Holyhead route?

 

[Gareth Marston]

ATW have stated in the latest issue of Modern Railways is that they would like to get Cardiff - Manchester to under 3 hours which is possible with the class 175 fleet and perhaps the 158's but I doubt it with the loco hauled sets.

The Cardiff - Holyhead route is the Welsh Governments little project so if they were to fund loco hauled sets this would be the route I would suspect they would put them on. ATW should be able to free up at least one unit on the Cardiff - Holyhead route if they can reverse trains at Cardiff Central in platforms 3 or 4 with trains arriving into Cardiff at least 5 minutes or more before they are timed to return north.

ATW will have to hire in some mark 2 carriages those as I doubt they would be able to form more than 2 rakes with the mark3's available. Chiltern will need more mark3's in the next couple of years on their services to Birmingham.


Quick question how many units are diagramed for the Cardiff - Holyhead route?

6 but some do funny turns up to Maesteg, in theory once the Wrexham partial, redouble is done this comes down to 5. An Gerald and the Llandudno Cardiff ECS Express.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The most practical way for ATW to free up some 158s is to use more LHCS ("push-pull") on North - South services.

Manchester to Llandudno would be better placement of extra seats to where demand is.

 

[berneyarms]

What exactly are the planned infrastructure improvements to allow for the hourly service?

At current line speeds, a westbound train would be leaving Fron Junction 8.5 minutes ahead of the eastbound train arriving there, with the obvious resulting issues on a single line! That's a reasonable amount of time to make up in terms of speed improvements.

 

[Rhydgaled]

ATW have stated in the latest issue of Modern Railways is that they would like to get Cardiff - Manchester to under 3 hours which is possible with the class 175 fleet and perhaps the 158's but I doubt it with the loco hauled sets.

Why not with loco-hauled sets? Lots of horsepower in the loco with only a load of five vehicles (4 plus DVT) should be pretty quick. If not 67s, then perhaps 68s being geared for 100mph rather than 125 (according to some sources) might get off the mark quicker.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Manchester to Llandudno would be better placement of extra seats to where demand is.

Which is basically what I said above. Glad somebody seems to agree with me.

 

[The Planner]

What exactly are the planned infrastructure improvements to allow for the hourly service?

At current line speeds, a westbound train would be leaving Fron Junction 8.5 minutes ahead of the eastbound train arriving there, with the obvious resulting issues on a single line! That's a reasonable amount of time to make up in terms of speed improvements.

How do you work that one out? The last time we looked at it the gap was an up train hitting Fron as the down was just leaving Welshpool, which was a bit too tight.

 

[berneyarms]

How do you work that one out? The last time we looked at it the gap was an up train hitting Fron as the down was just leaving Welshpool, which was a bit too tight.

Apologies looking at the current timetable, down trains reach Fron Junction at xx:53 and up trains reach it at xx:57:30.

That's still almost 5 minutes!

 

[Parallel]

I've been trying to come up with ideas about the suitability of stock on both Cambrian lines that the two hourly service to Pwllheli and Aberystwyth still runs, but it could work as an express service with class 158 stock, perhaps calling at Welshpool, Newtown, Caersws, Machynlleth, Dovey Junction, Aberdovey, Tywyn, Fairbourne, Barmouth, Dyffryn Ardudwy (?), Harlech, Penrhyndeudraeth, Porthmadog, Criccieth (?) and Pwllheli and then a one carriage 153 (once fitted with the right equipment) stopping service (retaining the request stops as they currently are) could operate from Machynlleth to Pwllheli once every 2 or 3 hours. I don't know how this would actually work as I rarely travel above Harlech but I know there are passing points at Tywyn, Barmouth, Harlech etc.

This would also allow passengers wanting to travel to a request stop from Shrewsbury or beyond to potentially take the service to Machynlleth and then change. Aberystwyth would get a hourly service and Pwllheli will get a 2 hourly express service, and then the stopper.

I think the problem is that as most of the Cambrian coast is single tracked and a small delay could easily lead to massive delays and cancellations, and also, 2 or 3 153s would also be needed. Also, it might see less people using the already small stations/request stops, which wouldn't be a good thing IMO.

 

[jones_bangor]

Why north-south services?

Politics? Welsh money spent in Wales?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I've been trying to come up with ideas about the suitability of stock on both Cambrian lines that the two hourly service to Pwllheli and Aberystwyth still runs, but it could work as an express service with class 158 stock, perhaps calling at Welshpool, Newtown, Caersws, Machynlleth, Dovey Junction, Aberdovey, Tywyn, Fairbourne, Barmouth, Dyffryn Ardudwy (?), Harlech, Penrhyndeudraeth, Porthmadog, Criccieth (?) and Pwllheli and then a one carriage 153 (once fitted with the right equipment) stopping service (retaining the request stops as they currently are) could operate from Machynlleth to Pwllheli once every 2 or 3 hours. I don't know how this would actually work as I rarely travel above Harlech but I know there are passing points at Tywyn, Barmouth, Harlech etc.

This would also allow passengers wanting to travel to a request stop from Shrewsbury or beyond to potentially take the service to Machynlleth and then change. Aberystwyth would get a hourly service and Pwllheli will get a 2 hourly express service, and then the stopper.

I think the problem is that as most of the Cambrian coast is single tracked and a small delay could easily lead to massive delays and cancellations, and also, 2 or 3 153s would also be needed. Also, it might see less people using the already small stations/request stops, which wouldn't be a good thing IMO.

Bulk of coast market is Schools and then holiday traffic that joins line at some point for a journey from folk already in situ by car, through traffic is noticeable in holiday periods but almost non existent in winter, when I commuted from Newtown to Machynlleth I got to choose where I sat on way home and which 4 bay I wanted on way home for most of year as Coast portion reached Mach first.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Politics? Welsh money spent in Wales?

It is the Wales and Borders franchise, Chester into Manchester is one of ATW's biggest flows and there's a couple of 158's floating around that weren't there a few years ago that could be used on Cambrian. If your adding LHCS at least use it where you'll fill it and help cover costs.

 

[The Informer]

Steel sleeper relaying between 85m 15ch and 95m 60ch

Yep, im sure the actual site is near Borth. There is also one at Tallerdig near the same time.

 

[The Planner]

Apologies looking at the current timetable, down trains reach Fron Junction at xx:53 and up trains reach it at xx:57:30.

That's still almost 5 minutes!

That is because it is still on the RETB timetable, it would be tweaked for the hourly and that comes down. The biggest juggle is with the portion working between Mach and Dovey.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That is because it is still on the RETB timetable, it would be tweaked for the hourly and that comes down. The biggest juggle is with the portion working between Mach and Dovey.

UP trains reach Newtown 6 early and wait time at moment so once we get tt built around the etcs running times and other infrastructure works that have speeded up services it all changes.

The options NR gave Welsh Government for running an hourly service and where the loops should be we're done (07) pre the service pattern changing to nearly everything splitting and joining at Machynlleth (dec 08). Mach to dyfi junction is a pinch point will probably have to settle for most coast trains starting at Dyfi Junction.

 

[berneyarms]

That is because it is still on the RETB timetable, it would be tweaked for the hourly and that comes down. The biggest juggle is with the portion working between Mach and Dovey.

UP trains reach Newtown 6 early and wait time at moment so once we get tt built around the etcs running times and other infrastructure works that have speeded up services it all changes.

The options NR gave Welsh Government for running an hourly service and where the loops should be we're done (07) pre the service pattern changing to nearly everything splitting and joining at Machynlleth (dec 08). Mach to dyfi junction is a pinch point will probably have to settle for most coast trains starting at Dyfi Junction.

That makes a lot more sense now - basically the sectional running needs to be updated.

I'd have to agree that changing at Dovey Junction would seem to make more sense, given the track capacity constraints.

 

[kieron]

6 but some do funny turns up to Maesteg, in theory once the Wrexham partial, redouble is done this comes down to 5. An Gerald and the Llandudno Cardiff ECS Express.

Will the line speed improvements between Manchester and Newton-le-Willows also allow a 175 to be released off-peak, by allowing the train which finishes one eastbound service to start the next one west, keeping the same times outside Manchester?