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Cambrian hourly service consultation

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tbtc

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How many of the current Birmingham Int - Holyhead services currently split at Shrewsbury?

Most that I see, but some contributors here are more knowledgeable about these things than me!
 
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Gwenllian2001

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But the present timetable relies on regular coupling/decoupling of Aber/Pwhelli 158 sets at Shrewsbury /Mach?

Are you proposing that the new timetable with extra hourly services should aim to reduce in service coupling/decoupling?

I was merely pointing out that it is just something else that can go wrong. Variation in track levels can, and do, cause problems.
 

Rhydgaled

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How many of the current Birmingham Int - Holyhead services currently split at Shrewsbury?

Most that I see, but some contributors here are more knowledgeable about these things than me!
I am also under the impression that most do. The unit that detaches goes straight back to Birmingham coupled to the next service from north Wales I think. Would be logical I think to extend the portion that splits off to form the extra service to Aberystwth.

I can't think why a regular poster should continually push for LHCS trains as these are regarded as a thing of the past and extremely costly to operate.
Because to operate an hourly service to Aberystwyth, or most other service enhancements, without reducing capacity elsewhere requires additional units (two for the hourly Aberystwyth service I think) and there aren't spare DMUs kicking arround. As I see it, that means you have a choice of 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' or using LHCS somewhere. LHCS is costly to operate particularly for short trains, which is why I say the LHCS should be put on the busier routes where the cost of a longer train compares less unfavoriably with DMUs.
 
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Llanigraham

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Since there are only 2 "tractors" equipped with ERTMS units, both run by NR not ATW, you won't get them pulling coaches on the Cambrian!
And they have slower speed limits than DMU's on the Cambrian, which knackers the timings.

I've sat on Salop station lots of times, waiting for my train to Caersws, and I don't think I've ever seen the Brum - Holyhead split.
 

PHILIPE

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One additional Unit required - The additional Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury would probably need to be only a 2 Car 158. It would run on the wrong hour to attach to the Holyhead and would not convey passengers from the Coast (Pwllheli route) or passengers to Birmingham as there would be no connection at Machynlleth from the Coast and passengers for the Birmingham direction would catch the through trains. It would take the pressure off the current service with passengers for Shrewsbury itself (plenty, I suggest) or to connect for stations via Crewe, Wrexham or to South Wales. There is no need to extend it beyond Shrewsbury at all and cost a further unit of which 158s would be in short supply because of their being the only ERTMS fitted fleet.
I must be honest and without trying to upset a regular poster but I am getting a bit tired of suggestions to use LHCS for anything additional. We all know they are ex trains apart for exceptional circumstances and no longer enter into Train Planning proposals. We shall be having suggestions for the return of steam next !!!
 

Beveridges

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I must be honest and without trying to upset a regular poster but I am getting a bit tired of suggestions to use LHCS for anything additional. We all know they are ex trains apart for exceptional circumstances and no longer enter into Train Planning proposals. We shall be having suggestions for the return of steam next

Charter companies manage to use LHCS no problems and they can provide some serious capacity compared to most units!!
 

Rhydgaled

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One additional Unit required - The additional Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury would probably need to be only a 2 Car 158. It would run on the wrong hour to attach to the Holyhead and would not convey passengers from the Coast (Pwllheli route) or passengers to Birmingham as there would be no connection at Machynlleth from the Coast and passengers for the Birmingham direction would catch the through trains. It would take the pressure off the current service with passengers for Shrewsbury itself (plenty, I suggest) or to connect for stations via Crewe, Wrexham or to South Wales. There is no need to extend it beyond Shrewsbury at all and cost a further unit of which 158s would be in short supply because of their being the only ERTMS fitted fleet.
I am afraid you are mistaken. Yes, the additionals between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth could be run with a 2-car 158 (which is what I envisage). However, several of your other points are incorrect:
  1. Aberystwyth is nearly 2hrs from Shrewsbury. 2hrs there and 2hrs back would mean one additional unit could run an additional service every 4hrs, but an hourly service requires an additional service every 2hrs. 2 additional units will be needed.
  2. The Birmingham - Holyhead currently runs in the other hour to the Birmingham - Aberystwyth/Pwllheli. To make the Aberystwyth service hourly requires additional Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth services in the other hour to the exist Birmingham - Aberystwyth/Pwllheli service. Therefore, the additional Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth services would be in the same hour as the Birmingham - Holyhead and consequentially could run through to/from Birmingham as a portion of the Birmingham - Holyhead service without any problem.
  3. Assuming the Holyhead - Birmingham is already 4-car between Birmingham and Shrewsbury and 2-car between Shrewsbury and Holyhead, extending the additional Aberystwyth services beyond Shrewsbury to Birmingham would not increase the number of additional units required. You need 2 additional units whether it is an additional Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury service or an additional Aberystwyth - Birmingham service. If the additional Aberystwyth services go to Crewe though I think that would require more than 2 extra units, which is why I support the Birmingham option rather than the Crewe option.
I must be honest and without trying to upset a regular poster but I am getting a bit tired of suggestions to use LHCS for anything additional. We all know they are ex trains apart for exceptional circumstances and no longer enter into Train Planning proposals.
Chiltern, Gerald, East Coast, RailJet? Not ex-trains at all. LHCS is not really something you want to be using on routes that don't need many coaches. Multiple units have their advantages, and these outway the advantages of LHCS in the majority of cases. However, answer me this: where will they get two additional 158s for a Cambrian hourly service?

I have already said where I would take them from, the Chester - Holyhead part of Birmingham - Holyhead. That way, the number of diagrams which have to be 158s due to ERTMS does not increase. But then you have to find two 175s to run the Chester - Holyhead leg. Where do you get those from? Which brings me to:
Charter companies manage to use LHCS no problems and they can provide some serious capacity compared to most units!!
I've bolded the key point. I know from experience that 175s do not provide sufficent capacity at times on the Manchester - south Wales services between Manchester and Swansea. Unfortunately, those Manchesters are run through to Carmarthen and Milford Haven, where the expense of additional capacity would rarely be needed. However, I suspect the Manchester - north Wales services are just as in need of additional capacity as Manchester - Swansea is (and the impression I've got from reports on this fourm etc. is that the Manchester - north Wales route does not have any 2-car 175s on it, unlike south Wales - Manchester).

Hence, my suggestion of how to find 2x class 158 for additional Aberystwyth services:
  • Strengthen the two busiest 3-car 175 Manchester - north Wales diagrams to a 4/5-coach LHCS train
  • Strengthen two Manchester - south Wales diagrams from 2-car 175 to 3-car 175, using the 3-car units displaced by the LHCS
  • Truncate the Birmingham - Wrexham - Holyhead service to Birmingham - Wrexham - Chester, releasing the 2 158s for the Cambrian
  • Introduce new Chester - Holyhead services to replace the truncated Birminghams, using the two 2-car 175s released by the 3-car 175s released by the LHCS
LHCS may be expensive, but boy do those two LHCS sets spread the benifits quite nicely:
  • Strengthening of two diagrams on Manchester - south Wales services, probably ATW's busiest route
  • Strengthening of two diagrams on Manchester - north Wales services, another busy route
  • Doubling of frequency between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth
  • Through trains from Pwllheli to Birmingham, combining with the Aberystwyth service at Machynlleth to give 4-car trains from Machynlleth to Birmingham, retained every two hours
When you look at it like that, the cost:benifit ratio can't be all that bad can it?

A third LHCS set on Manchester - north Wales workings could release another 3-car 175, which again could replace a 2-car somewhere with that 2-car unit used to extend the Chester - Holyhead workings through to Crewe (to reduce the changes needed to reach Birmingham and make up for the loss of through trains).
 
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merlodlliw

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Currently four sets of 158s are on the Chester/Manchester morning run due to excessive overcrowding,these replaced 2x 3 car 175s, dont know where they went.
These 158s then return to North Wales. two sets split at Chester one for HHD and the other set does Llandudno.The other two sets do Manchester/Bangor.
In my opinion the Cambrian line is stuffed as it can only use 158s,whereas the Salop/Chester Line can cope with anything.

Lets also not forget the five hour break in services from Mach to Pwlhelli every evening. Plus on another point Gerald has a spare set lying idle at Canton that never sees service,besides Gerald itself lying idle for eight hours each day, from Dec it will still be a six hour layover, so there is stock available but ATW wont use it.

Loco hauled may to some be a thing of the past, but the pax need to move & the pax are paramount,a few in high places need reminding of this.
 
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HSTEd

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Charter companies are also using some of the only available LHCS.

There is not actually much more to go around and it would be cheaper to build additional units than to build more.
 

merlodlliw

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Currently four sets of 158s are on the Chester/Manchester morning run due to excessive overcrowding,these replaced 2x 3 car 175s, dont know where they went.
These 158s then return to North Wales. two sets split at Chester one for HHD and the other set does Llandudno.The other two sets do Manchester/Bangor.
In my opinion the Cambrian line is stuffed as it can only use 158s,whereas the Salop/Chester Line can cope with anything.

Lets also not forget the five hour break in services from Mach to Pwlhelli every evening. Plus on another point Gerald has a spare set lying idle at Canton that never sees service,besides Gerald itself lying idle for eight hours each day, from Dec it will still be a seven hour layover, so there is stock available but ATW wont use it.

Loco hauled may to some be a thing of the past, but the pax need to move & the pax are paramount,a few in high places need reminding of this.
Is not a HST in many ways a loco hauled system of a kind, as these are due to be cascaded after South Wales wires are up.
 
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Gareth Marston

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Since there are only 2 "tractors" equipped with ERTMS units, both run by NR not ATW, you won't get them pulling coaches on the Cambrian!
And they have slower speed limits than DMU's on the Cambrian, which knackers the timings.

I've sat on Salop station lots of times, waiting for my train to Caersws, and I don't think I've ever seen the Brum - Holyhead split.

0819,1019,1219,1419,1619 & 1819 arrivals from BHM INTL.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Currently four sets of 158s are on the Chester/Manchester morning run due to excessive overcrowding,these replaced 2x 3 car 175s, dont know where they went.
These 158s then return to North Wales. two sets split at Chester one for HHD and the other set does Llandudno.The other two sets do Manchester/Bangor.
In my opinion the Cambrian line is stuffed as it can only use 158s,whereas the Salop/Chester Line can cope with anything.

Lets also not forget the five hour break in services from Mach to Pwlhelli every evening. Plus on another point Gerald has a spare set lying idle at Canton that never sees service,besides Gerald itself lying idle for eight hours each day, from Dec it will still be a six hour layover, so there is stock available but ATW wont use it.

Loco hauled may to some be a thing of the past, but the pax need to move & the pax are paramount,a few in high places need reminding of this.

I've always said once ATW have the prospect of more £ they'll find a solution look at the extras to Fishguard. Talking of which given the loadings achieved and remember Fishguard is a small town of around 4000 people I can't the see the extra 5 trains a day continuing beyond this September when the 3 year trial is up, though I can see a couple of extras remaining.
The North Wales Coast is chronically over populated with services at certain times of the day, if VT put a couple of extras on following the Manchester to Scotland diagram reorganise there maybe scope to thin out some ATW services.
The Wrexham redouble being back on means that the number of units needed for the north to south circuit comes down by one, and there's that Llandudno to Cardiff ecs move in the morning to consider.
 

Rhydgaled

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Gerald has a spare set lying idle at Canton that never sees service,besides Gerald itself lying idle for eight hours each day, from Dec it will still be a six hour layover, so there is stock available but ATW wont use it.
Yes, but you can't ask for 100% availability from a fleet and even the 8hr layover at the moment isn't enough to get in a Swansea - Manchester run, only a Cardiff - Manchester run. However, there are two spare ATW-liveried 67s and DVTs, so if you obtained another 5 standard class mrk3 TSOs you could create a 67 + 5x TSO + DVT rake and still have 3 TSOs, 1 buffet car, 1 loco and 1 DVT spare. I wonder if 1 spare rake would still be enough if you added a four and/or fifth rake to have three or four in service?

Alternatively, if you don't like the dead space of the DVT, you could try and buy the four mrk2 DBSOs that aren't with DRS or Network Rail and buy back the former ATW mrk2s and perhaps a few more to make up 4 five or six coach rakes.

Charter companies are also using some of the only available LHCS.

There is not actually much more to go around and it would be cheaper to build additional units than to build more.
Charter companies might be using some of it, but passing Crewe on a semi-regular basis last year there were loads of mrk2s just sitting there. Charter companies seem to have alot more stock than they actually need. Or you could always charter the coaches from the charter companies, as I think FirstGW did with Cardiff-Taunton, a practice they are looking at restoring.
 

anthony263

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0819,1019,1219,1419,1619 & 1819 arrivals from BHM INTL.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I've always said once ATW have the prospect of more £ they'll find a solution look at the extras to Fishguard. Talking of which given the loadings achieved and remember Fishguard is a small town of around 4000 people I can't the see the extra 5 trains a day continuing beyond this September when the 3 year trial is up, though I can see a couple of extras remaining.
QUOTE]


The problem with the Fishguard services in my opinion is the eractic timetable with trains also terminating at Claberston Road. A train every 2-3 hours to Swansea should be enough at most possible with trains splitting/attaching to Pembroke Dock services @ Whitland.

As for the extra services on the Cambrian line I think the extra services between Aberytsywth and Shrewsbury would in theory take pressure off the existing services to Aberytsywth as passengers will have more services to choose from.

In the future when additional stock is available I do think the Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury services should be extended to Crewe providing easy connections for passengers wishing to travel to Liverpool, Derby etc
 

PHILIPE

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My apologies here, two units not one to run between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth on the opposite hour to tje Birminghams.
 

Llanigraham

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Let's be practical.
Certainly from talking to my local friends all they want is some extra services between Aber/Mach and Salop. Generally the requests seem to be 0730, 0930 and perhaps 1130 (off Caersws) up, and 1630 and 1830 (off Salop) back plus possibly 2030. Most of them realise that those timings will give them fairly decent connections in all directions from Salop. Most are not bothered about changing, as that is normally fairly easy at Salop.
I understand that the timings and routings have already been "proved" as possible by Mach box, so it is just up to ATW to find the units and hopefully pursuade WAG that it is economically feasible.
From my own sightings the number of people catching the 0830 at Caersws has more than doubled in the last 2 years. On Thursday 28 people got on, with atleast the same at Newtown, and slightly less at Welshpool.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Let's be practical.
Certainly from talking to my local friends all they want is some extra services between Aber/Mach and Salop. Generally the requests seem to be 0730, 0930 and perhaps 1130 (off Caersws) up, and 1630 and 1830 (off Salop) back plus possibly 2030. Most of them realise that those timings will give them fairly decent connections in all directions from Salop. Most are not bothered about changing, as that is normally fairly easy at Salop.

Apart from the need for using a 158 for ETCS, the extra services could easily be combined with the Shrewsbury-Crewe for an Aber-Crewe 2-hourly service.
But you need 2 extra peak units from somewhere, even for the limited services suggested here.
 

merlodlliw

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The North Wales Coast is chronically over populated with services at certain times of the day, if VT put a couple of extras on following the Manchester to Scotland diagram reorganise there maybe scope to thin out some ATW services.
The Wrexham redouble being back on means that the number of units needed for the north to south circuit comes down by one, and there's that Llandudno to Cardiff ecs move in the morning to consider.
[/QUOTE]

Talking over populated North Wales coast services,Rhyl for example has four up services between 3pm & 4pm in the depth of winter & similar on the down for a population of 25K, Wrexham town alone with 45K has one up and one down on the main line, the feeder areas for Wrexham are far more populated than Rhyls link with the vale.
 

Llanigraham

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Why Salop - Crewe? Sorry but I do not understand the continual harking about this extension.
From my experience most of us locals either want to travel to Salop to go shopping or for work, or to Brum. There are a few wanting to go onto Manchester, normally for the airport, or down to Cardiff, and a few go to Chester.
For longer distances, typically London, most seem to be happy to change at either Wolves or B'ham International, so only have to change once. The only possible "mass" users of Crewe might be Aber students from the North West, at term change times.

However I will agree that it does need 2 units, preferably 3 car!
 

merlodlliw

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Why Salop - Crewe? Sorry but I do not understand the continual harking about this extension.
From my experience most of us locals either want to travel to Salop to go shopping or for work, or to Brum. There are a few wanting to go onto Manchester, normally for the airport, or down to Cardiff, and a few go to Chester.
For longer distances, typically London, most seem to be happy to change at either Wolves or B'ham International, so only have to change once. The only possible "mass" users of Crewe might be Aber students from the North West, at term change times.

However I will agree that it does need 2 units, preferably 3 car!

Do 158s have three car sets, thought it was only 2/4/6
 
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Rhydgaled

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Like I said earlier, you won't make any extras fit to Brum.
No one is proposing running extra services east of Shrewsbury.
I get the impression Rhydgaled is.
Not in this thread, I was told on another thread long ago that you wouldn't get any extras past Wolves. What I am proposing is that the additional Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury services run through to Birmingham by attaching to the Holyhead - Birmingham service at Shrewsbury (though under my proposals those would be cut back to Chester - Birmingham). This would not actually be adding extras east of Shrewsbury, as it uses the same path as the Holyhead - Birmingham.

Do 158s have three car sets, thought it was only 2/4/6
ATW doesn't, but a few 3-car 158s were built (most, but not all, have since been reclassified as 159s). Also, FirstGW runs 3-car 158s, one of which is an actual 3-car set but the others have been formed of a 2-car 158 with a vehicle from another 2-car 158 stuck on the end (so there is an odd cab part way along the formation).
 

anthony263

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FGW have 3 carriage units which were created by reforming a number of 2 carriage units although they do have one proper 3 carriage class 158.

I think Northern have some 3 carriage units as well. Truth be told I think the class 158's are going to be very much in demand with ATW, EMT, Northern wanting those units for thier long distance regional services casading units like the class 156's to other routes or operators.

The only units likely to become available will be a couple from Scotrail or FGW if the decision is taken to create some 4 carriage class 166's which will be refurbished with a new seating arrangement. Again like Scotrail FGW could decide to keep their class 158's for use on some services down Cornwall & Devon although they should still have a coouple of examples which can go to other operators.

(I wouldnt mind ATW getting some since the class 158's with FGW are in pretty good shape compared with those with Northern I suspect).

As for the extra cambrian line services you could run a hourly service between Aberystwyth and Birmingham but this will depend on whether or not there are any available paths between Wolverhampton and Birmingham New Street otherwise why not run them to Crewe (If they arrived into Shrewsbury from Aberystwyth at 55 minutes past the hour I would suggest running them to Chester giving the Shrewsbury - Chester line a 30 minutely interval at certain times of the day)
 

Gareth Marston

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Talking over populated North Wales coast services,Rhyl for example has four up services between 3pm & 4pm in the depth of winter & similar on the down for a population of 25K, Wrexham town alone with 45K has one up and one down on the main line, the feeder areas for Wrexham are far more populated than Rhyls link with the vale.[/QUOTE]

There's a tail chase west of Chester just after 0900 with 4 departures as well, what it needs is good clear up recognising that running 3 different standard pattern services onto it is overkill. VT is the main service and ATW should fit around them and incidentally you might be able to concentrate more carriages onto the Chester to Manchester section but wil have to give up on SPT.
 

Llanigraham

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I didn't say they had 3 car units. I said they ought to be 3 car units to reduce some of the overcrowding, especially on some Saturdays.

And still nobody has yet justified the Salop - Crewe extension!
 

anthony263

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Well some of the stations along the line between Shrewsbury and Crewe have see passenger numbers increase why do you think some of the Milford Haven/Carmarthen - Manchester services call at stations like Nantwich.

An additional service along that stretch alongside the 2 hourly Shrewsbury - Crewe service shoudl enourage further growth in passenger numbers without putting pressure on the other services which use the line.
 

jones_bangor

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Talking over populated North Wales coast services,Rhyl for example has four up services between 3pm & 4pm in the depth of winter & similar on the down for a population of 25K, Wrexham town alone with 45K has one up and one down on the main line, the feeder areas for Wrexham are far more populated than Rhyls link with the vale.

Your argument would have some weight if the train only called at Rhyl!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My apologies here, two units not one to run between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth on the opposite hour to the Birminghams.

That does seem like a good idea. It is unfortunate for the Cambrian lines that they are so reliant on the ERTMS fitted 158s, as they seem to be in such demand for other routes.
 
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