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Cambrian hourly service consultation

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Rhydgaled

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1.On whose contract does GHA run the X94?
I don't know, but given the Sunday service was called T3 at one point that suggests Welsh Government TrawsCymru funding finds it's way to the service somehow, probably via one of the councils on route.

2.I think ATW sees Manchester/Cardiff/Manchester as the earner,there's a Sunday hourly service running , Cardiff/North Wales only have two services on Sunday due to small demand, Chester/Manchester is also hourly on Sunday
Cardiff/Swansea - Manchester would have been my suggested destination for LHCS but the service does currently run through to/from stations west of Swansea. That means it has lower-volume sections where I'm afraid a 5-or-more-coach LHCS train would be causing financial pain for an unecessary capacity gain. Manchester - Llandudno/Holyhead is probably busier throughout than Manchester - Milford/Carmarthen, so the north Wales - MAN route seems to be the best place to use LHCS on the franchise.
 
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merlodlliw

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I don't know, but given the Sunday service was called T3 at one point that suggests Welsh Government TrawsCymru funding finds it's way to the service somehow, probably via one of the councils on route.

Cardiff/Swansea - Manchester would have been my suggested destination for LHCS but the service does currently run through to/from stations west of Swansea. That means it has lower-volume sections where I'm afraid a 5-or-more-coach LHCS train would be causing financial pain for an unecessary capacity gain. Manchester - Llandudno/Holyhead is probably busier throughout than Manchester - Milford/Carmarthen, so the north Wales - MAN route seems to be the best place to use LHCS on the franchise.

1.Yes I recall T3, the first GHA Sunday service appears to start/finish at Ruabon,if the funding is from County Councils,the main payers will be Conwy & Gwynedd as Llangollen enjoys an express GHA service from Wrexham.
Conwy & Gwynedd sub the Sundays three buses Llandudno/Blaenau Ffestiniog & Gwynedd pays towards the one up & down Sunday Cambrian Coast train.
ATW still refuse to show the Sunday bus service up the Conwy Valley line in the timetable,yet these Sunday bus services all accept through rail tickets

2.would agree North Wales/Manchester appears busier than West Wales to Swansea,although FGW run HSTs on Sundays to Carmarthen,probabley a franchise commitment,
 
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Gareth Marston

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1.Yes I recall T3, the first GHA Sunday service appears to start/finish at Ruabon,if the funding is from County Councils,the main payers will be Conwy & Gwynedd as Llangollen enjoys an express GHA service from Wrexham.
Conwy & Gwynedd sub the Sundays three buses Llandudno/Blaenau Ffestiniog & Gwynedd pays towards the one up & down Sunday Cambrian Coast train.
ATW still refuse to show the Sunday bus service up the Conwy Valley line in the timetable,yet these Sunday bus services all accept through rail tickets

2.would agree North Wales/Manchester appears busier than West Wales to Swansea,although FGW run HSTs on Sundays to Carmarthen,probabley a franchise commitment,

Arriva Bus trying to run these routes on commercial basis has been the biggest factor in the TrawsCambria network failing to meet its objectives , whereas there was money for it back 5 years ago its doubtful whether it can now fill the void as we all know other things have happened to coaches!

ATW services in and out of Birmingham and Manchester both routes are busier than into Swansea, the 0514 from Aberystwyth is like the tube between Wolves and New St.
 

merlodlliw

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Arriva Bus trying to run these routes on commercial basis has been the biggest factor in the TrawsCambria network failing to meet its objectives , whereas there was money for it back 5 years ago its doubtful whether it can now fill the void as we all know other things have happened to coaches!

ATW services in and out of Birmingham and Manchester both routes are busier than into Swansea, the 0514 from Aberystwyth is like the tube between Wolves and New St.

I note the petition on the Welsh Assembly website for the retention of the X94 Wrexham/Ruabon/Llan/Bala/Dolgellau /Barmouth, is the most active & carries large numbers of petitioners, a quote below from the Minister,she has learned not to ignore the public any longer so it seems.

WRITTEN STATEMENT
BY
THE WELSH GOVERNMENT


TITLE Arriva Buses Wales
DATE 2 October 2013
BY Edwina Hart MBE CStJ AM, Minister for Economy, Science and Transport


On 1 October Arriva Buses Wales announced that it had begun to consult staff on its proposals to close its Aberystwyth depot and its associated withdrawal from providing certain bus services in north and west Wales. This decision would affect the following services:

· Services 20, 40 and 40C - that operate between Aberystwyth and Cardiff via Carmarthen, Swansea and Bridgend.

· Service 50 – that operates between Aberystwyth and Synod Inn via Aberaeron and New Quay.

· Service 585 – that operates between Aberystwyth and Lampeter.

· Service X94 – that operates as a commercial part of the TrawsCymru network of longer-distance services between Wrexham and Barmouth.

Whilst this is a commercial matter for the company, we are disappointed that Arriva Buses Wales has taken this decision. I have today spoken to the three local authorities concerned and will be convening an officials group to report back to me by the end of next week with options for maintaining services. I will make a further statement in due course.



A statement will be made by WG tomorrow.
http://www.senedd.assemblywales.org/ieListDocuments.aspx?MId=1923&x=1
 
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merlodlliw

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statement today 15th October in the Senedd by the Minister for transport,Edwina Hart

WG is going to secure the services by using top sliced Regional Transport Grant to re-tender provision in the short term.

Local AM tells me they hope GHA will take over X94 every day, and run the day after Arriva finish, similar with the other operators for services in Mid/West Wales.
One hopes GHA employ some of the 43 Drivers being sacked by Arriva bus Wales
 
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Rhydgaled

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Local AM tells me they hope GHA will take over X94 every day, and run the day after Arriva finish, similar with the other operators for services in Mid/West Wales.
One hopes GHA employ some of the 43 Drivers being sacked by Arriva bus Wales
Will GHA also take over the Dolgellau outstation? Otherwise I'd be concerned that a major cut in hours of operation and perhaps frequency, worse then when the X32 went, might be in store. The sensible thing in my view, for both X94 and 40, would be to run it with a depot at each end to allow a good early/late service without having to run too many late-night/early-morning positioning workings.
 

merlodlliw

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Will GHA also take over the Dolgellau outstation? Otherwise I'd be concerned that a major cut in hours of operation and perhaps frequency, worse then when the X32 went, might be in store. The sensible thing in my view, for both X94 and 40, would be to run it with a depot at each end to allow a good early/late service without having to run too many late-night/early-morning positioning workings.

No idea yet about retaining outstations,in GHA favor they have put on extra services here, a Mon/Sat X50/X52 runs hourly Wrexham Eagles Meadow to Denbigh via Ruthin with connections to Rhyl, this is very well used, WG & Taith have ten weeks to sort out the X94,GHA will be in the driving seat to conclude a deal, the other transport consortia including Taith now need to sort out this mess. The full statement should be on WG website today.
 

davetheguard

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statement today 15th October in the Senedd by the Minister for transport,Edwina Hart



Local AM tells me they hope GHA will take over X94 every day, and run the day after Arriva finish, similar with the other operators for services in Mid/West Wales.
One hopes GHA employ some of the 43 Drivers being sacked by Arriva bus Wales

Surely the drivers are not being "sacked"; they are being made redundant, which is a rather different thing. Still not great for the individuals concerned, of course.

However, many will have the opportunity to be transfered under the TUPE arrangements to the new operator(s); why would a company go to all the effort and expense of recruiting & training new staff, when all they need to do is to take on the former Arriva drivers?
 

merlodlliw

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Surely the drivers are not being "sacked"; they are being made redundant, which is a rather different thing. Still not great for the individuals concerned, of course.

However, many will have the opportunity to be transfered under the TUPE arrangements to the new operator(s); why would a company go to all the effort and expense of recruiting & training new staff, when all they need to do is to take on the former Arriva drivers?

They are indeed being made redundant,perhaps my word sacked was a tad unfortunate, but non the less their contracts of employment are being terminated, I do hope GHA take on some of the drivers,however I dont see the new contracts starting until after the 21st December.
I have a transcript of the WG proceedings yesterday,its long, but if anyone wishes to see it, send me an e mail address via PM. It will appear on WG web site later.
The transcript does say the X94 will remain safe,other areas appear not so safe this morning.

Bob
 

Gareth Marston

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Website survey forms completed were over 3000 last Friday, paper forms yet to be counted but boxes of them in Welshpool Town Council offices. I'm told that Welsh Government were expecting 400 to 500.
 

IKBrunel

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That sounds like good news. I would expect most of them to be positive (can't imagine many people writing against except maybe a few taxpayers alliance types). Thanks for the post Gareth.

I know you're less involved with Sarpa these days, I don't know if there other Sarpa folk on here? I note that Sarpa is making less than positive noises about a proposed footbridge with lifts at Machynlleth,
http://sarpa.info/

Yes £2M is a lot of money, but we know that doing any civils work within railway property is a costly business. But once built these things are there for a long time.
I think it's important to recognise that lifts don't just benefit people with disabilities, but also customers with heavy luggage, pushchairs children, etc. In addition there are many elderly people who struggle a bit with stairs and aren't able to drive anymore for whom public transport is an important lifeline. As such I do think that provision of lifts at interchange stations does make rail travel a smoother & less stressful experience for a great number of people both abled bodied and with disabilities. That must surely help to increase usage which in turn helps justify more investment & a better service
So it surprises me that a group which proports to represent the interests of passengers isn't a little more positive when large sums of money are proposed to be invested in a line which relies on a considerable operating subsidy.
 
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Gareth Marston

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That sounds like good news. I would expect most of them to be positive (can't imagine many people writing against except maybe a few taxpayers alliance types). Thanks for the post Gareth.

I know you're less involved with Sarpa these days, I don't know if there other Sarpa folk on here? I note that Sarpa is making less than positive noises about a proposed footbridge with lifts at Machynlleth,
http://sarpa.info/

Yes £2M is a lot of money, but we know that doing any civils work within railway property is a costly business. But once built these things are there for a long time.
I think it's important to recognise that lifts don't just benefit people with disabilities, but also customers with heavy luggage, pushchairs children, etc. In addition there are many elderly people who struggle a bit with stairs and aren't able to drive anymore for whom public transport is an important lifeline. As such I do think that provision of lifts at interchange stations does make rail travel a smoother & less stressful experience for a great number of people both abled bodied and with disabilities. That must surely help to increase usage which in turn helps justify more investment & a better service
So it surprises me that a group which proports to represent the interests of passengers isn't a little more positive when large sums of money are proposed to be invested in a line which relies on a considerable operating subsidy.

I was on the committee from 1995 to 2012 and do not speak for SARPA anymore. However I can see where there coming from as the bridge is completely unnecessary. No passenger trains cross at Machynlleth and nor will there be any scheduled crossing there once/if we get extra trains. Since ETCS was commissioned in March 11 both lines have been fully bi directional, the DOWN platform can be used for all passenger trains thereby avoiding the expense of the bridge. I've been on a UP service that has done it and joined up with another unit at the platform and departed as per normal no problems. This was suggested as a solution back in the late 90's to the access issue.

Is there any research that shows passenger numbers increase after access for all schemes?

A colleague of mine uses a wheelchair and is a member of a disability group locally. Guess what they said would make them use the train more? An hourly service!
 

IKBrunel

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Hmm, interesting point. Can Machynlleth operate all services with 1 platform before / after hourly service & if so why didn't NR pursue this option?
 

The Planner

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The layout being what it is at Dovey would suggest that is where the crossing move is made, it has been a long time since I have had a look at it.
 

Rhydgaled

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One platform? Mach as two
But the step-free access route between the two platforms is rather a long way round. The suggestion from SARPA was that using only one of the two platforms would save an expensive new footbridge with lifts which would probably be an eyesore (I added the eyesore bit).
 

Gareth Marston

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Hmm, interesting point. Can Machynlleth operate all services with 1 platform before / after hourly service & if so why didn't NR pursue this option?

Aha this is where it gets interesting as its not NR money! Welsh Government applied to DFT for a pot of access for all money and got it, the Welsh Government has then asked the regional transport conortia to put forward schemes to spend it.
It's a case of a theres a pot of money to spend for X find some X scheme to spend it on. TraCC ( the mid wales consortia) put forward Machynlleth.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The layout being what it is at Dovey would suggest that is where the crossing move is made, it has been a long time since I have had a look at it.

Always has been the intention as Mach is too far from Aberystwyth to allow 1 tph
 

IKBrunel

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Ah I see, the opportunism of funding...
I wonder if there is also a political/psychological aspect in that mothballing one of Machs platforms would be seen as a backward step even if it allowed better customer access?

I think parking is also an unresolved issue at Mach, I remember talk of a new car park on the Dyfi Eco park side, but I think that idea didn't go anywhere. I'm not sure how that would have tied in with accessibility, as I suspect the ramp to platform 2 is steeper than the DDA spec.
 

Gareth Marston

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Ah I see, the opportunism of funding...
I wonder if there is also a political/psychological aspect in that mothballing one of Machs platforms would be seen as a backward step even if it allowed better customer access?

I think parking is also an unresolved issue at Mach, I remember talk of a new car park on the Dyfi Eco park side, but I think that idea didn't go anywhere. I'm not sure how that would have tied in with accessibility, as I suspect the ramp to platform 2 is steeper than the DDA spec.

To be frank this ( car parking) is a bigger issue than DDA compliance. Half the units on the Eco park have never been used properly and stem from the failed rural business park model of the DBRW and WDA days. Repurchasing some of it and putting the new train care shed there and using where they put the new shed for car parking would have been ideal.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Does an hourly service actually require any more units than at present?

'Simply' move the Aberystwyth or Pwllheli services by one hour so that you get hourly arrivals at Machynlleth (i.e. alternately from Aberystwyth / Pwllheli) each going forward to Shrewsbury as a single unit, rather than doubling up as happens presently. From Shrewsbury the same applies - hourly trains alternately going forward to Aberystwyth / Pwllheli.

Same number of seats provided, so no loss of existing capacity but no enhanced capacity (seatwise) either. No increased capacity for growth resulting from the increased frequency but a more attractive service nonetheless.

Improve the service first, then press for more carriages when they are hanging off the outside of the train, Bombay style!
 

Rhydgaled

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Does an hourly service actually require any more units than at present?

'Simply' move the Aberystwyth or Pwllheli services by one hour so that you get hourly arrivals at Machynlleth (i.e. alternately from Aberystwyth / Pwllheli) each going forward to Shrewsbury as a single unit, rather than doubling up as happens presently. From Shrewsbury the same applies - hourly trains alternately going forward to Aberystwyth / Pwllheli.

Same number of seats provided, so no loss of existing capacity but no enhanced capacity (seatwise) either. No increased capacity for growth resulting from the increased frequency but a more attractive service nonetheless.

Improve the service first, then press for more carriages when they are hanging off the outside of the train, Bombay style!
Doesn't give an hourly frequency between Aberystwyth and Dovey Junction though. Plus I think you'd have hanging off the outside of the train as soon as the improved frequency was noticed by the potential passengers, thanks to what I've decided to dub 'the Princess Effect' (the Voyagers and enhanced XC frequency were operation Princess weren't they?) Personally, I think retaining a 4-car train (Pwllheli and Aberystwyth portions) from Machynlleth every two hours is important, you might get away with 2-car Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury in the other hours.
 

Gareth Marston

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Does an hourly service actually require any more units than at present?

'Simply' move the Aberystwyth or Pwllheli services by one hour so that you get hourly arrivals at Machynlleth (i.e. alternately from Aberystwyth / Pwllheli) each going forward to Shrewsbury as a single unit, rather than doubling up as happens presently. From Shrewsbury the same applies - hourly trains alternately going forward to Aberystwyth / Pwllheli.

Same number of seats provided, so no loss of existing capacity but no enhanced capacity (seatwise) either. No increased capacity for growth resulting from the increased frequency but a more attractive service nonetheless.

Improve the service first, then press for more carriages when they are hanging off the outside of the train, Bombay style!

It actually works out as unit neutral, however the year round major passenger driver on the Cambrian is Aberystwyth. Aber is the busiest station in the UK with a less than hourly service sometimes the existing 2 car service every 2 hours departs Aber with standing passengers. It's also the largest town in Mid Wales and has seen large population growth in recent years.
Though the uptake in numbers at Newtown and in Welshpool will be great as there closer to larger population centres across the border.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Doesn't give an hourly frequency between Aberystwyth and Dovey Junction though. Plus I think you'd have hanging off the outside of the train as soon as the improved frequency was noticed by the potential passengers, thanks to what I've decided to dub 'the Princess Effect' (the Voyagers and enhanced XC frequency were operation Princess weren't they?) Personally, I think retaining a 4-car train (Pwllheli and Aberystwyth portions) from Machynlleth every two hours is important, you might get away with 2-car Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury in the other hours.

Indeed it was 'Princess' although it all fell apart rather quickly - Brighton, Blackpool etc quickly abandoned.

As a potential (albeit infrequent) user, the hourly frequency would attract me. The risk of arriving at Shrewsbury and just missing a connection, with a subsequent 2 hour wait, does not appeal. No offence intended to Shrewsbury - it is a lovely town where I can (and often do) spend more than two hours looking around - but not with luggage on my way to/from holiday!

With an hourly service I could do a day trip to one or more intermediate stations before ending up at Aberystwyth. Similarly I could alight at one of the intermediate stations for a quick visit en-route to holiday in Porthmadoc / Pwllheli.

Whilst it is clearly desirable, is there a 'need' for an hourly service Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth. Could the extra hourly service be a shuttle between Machynlleth (Dovey Junction?), provided by just one extra unit, with a cross platform interchange with the Pwllheli service? Time for the timetable planners to come up with some deliverable options.

It's all about getting something happening, rather than more talk and finding 101 reasons not to do something. Get it up and running, prove the case, them press for further improvements.
 

The Planner

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Whilst it is clearly desirable, is there a 'need' for an hourly service Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth. Could the extra hourly service be a shuttle between Machynlleth (Dovey Junction?), provided by just one extra unit, with a cross platform interchange with the Pwllheli service? Time for the timetable planners to come up with some deliverable options.

Options for the timetable have been on the table for years. The Dovey option was considered aswell, but knocked back due to there being no suitable waiting room at Dovey, even using the unit as a waiting room (as it has light, heat and toilets) was dropped.
 

IKBrunel

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the shropshire star says
Welsh Assembly chiefs had been anticipating 400 replies during the three week consultation into the need for an hourly rail service from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury, calling at Welshpool and Newtown.

But Robert Robinson, Welshpool Town Council clerk and secretary of the Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth Railway Liaison Committee, told members of the town council at a meeting last night that he was confident there would be an announcement next month.

Mr Robinson told the council at its monthly meeting: “I met Welsh Assembly Transport Minster Edwina Hart’s officers in Shrewsbury and the survey is now complete.

“Mrs Hart was expecting 400 replies to it and that would have gone down as a good sample for this purpose. We had 6,500, with 4,000 completed by hand and a further 2,500 online, which is fantastic.

“I can’t say too much at the moment, but what I can say is that on single commuter lines in the rush hours, if the surveys are to be believed, usage would increase by 370 per cent if the hourly service was introduced.

“This is overwhelming evidence that we need this service. I am now going to meet Mrs Hart’s office again in a week’s time and then I will meet her on November 19 and she will be looking to make an announcement on the future of the service later that month.

“My thanks go to Welshpool town councillors Estelle Blievas, Hazel Evans, John Morgan and Malcolm Douglass who actually went onto the trains themselves and asked passengers to fill in forms.”

The project could play a key part in bringing a major improvement to Wales’s primary east to west transport corridor, campaigners have claimed.
So we eagerly await Edwina Hart’s announcement at the end of November. Mindful of civil service timescales (sorry) suggests that discussions with NR & ATW have already taken place? Would ATW need to make a formal application for additional paths?
What sort of timescales are we realistically talking about?
 
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The Planner

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Discussions have been taken place for years. It has purely been down to ATW having the desire to do it. If they had the units ready, then technically they could VSTP a path in now.
 

Gareth Marston

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Discussions have been taken place for years. It has purely been down to ATW having the desire to do it. If they had the units ready, then technically they could VSTP a path in now.

ATW have always been clear they'll do whatever providing a3rd party bungs them loads of £ for it. A large problem has been that ATW themselves have never wanted anything beyond the 8 trains a day on the Cambrian. Knowledge of the route, customer base, potential, acknowledgement of basic flaws in the current tt etc and willingness to do anything about it have been absent from ATW management. The people who first put hourly on the agenda Central Trains did they were ex BR managers who knew the area.

Realistically getting any spare units is now locked into the Wrexham redouble as the journey time improvements will cut down by one the units needed on the CDF to HHD diagrams and a 175 can replace the 158 that currently overnights in Carmathen.
 
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