• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Cammells Toughened Steel

Status
Not open for further replies.

130MM

New Member
Joined
14 Dec 2010
Messages
2
Location
Wakefield, Massachusetts, USA
Hello, everyone! This is my first posting here. I am from "across the Pond", and was volunteering at a 2 ft. gage railroad in Maine. They had a carload of rail with the brand that said:

CAMMELLS TOUGHENED STEEL W 1890 SEC 186A

I could find no information on this rail over here, other than there was a gentleman named Charles Cammell who apparently owned the steel mill in which this rail was rolled. My questions are these:

1. What makes the steel "toughened"?

2. What is "SEC 186A"? I assume it is mill shorthand for a particualr section of rail.

Thanks for your help.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Ploughman

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
2,892
Location
Near where the 3 ridings meet
Toughening carried out usually by Heat treatment of the rail head or by varying the steel mix slightly.
Not sure of the chemical mix would need to check further.

SEC not known possibly a Standards institution?
186A may be the rail weight. Or the particular standard that is relevant to the institution.

Over here BS 113 means British Standard for 113 lb per yard rail
The roll markings in the rail will probably read something like
BS113A - CORUS - Year Date plus indications as to whether heat treated or not.
CORUS being a manufacturer of rail.
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
Welcome!

Just to add to Ploughman's reply, though I hope someone else more knowledgeable will be along who can correct me if I'm wrong here, but a couple of thoughts might help you in the meantime:
Toughening steel is a complex matter and involves two main strategies:
a precise selection of impurities in critical quantities (notably Carbon in as little as 0.05% and Manganese possibly over 10% plus a few other metals such as Chrome), and
the cooling process (known as quashing) during which the chemical structure of the iron and the impurities is fixed in the required pattern by accellerated cooling at a precise temperature - its that pattern which provides the required strength, (whether that is resistance to fracture, resistance to bending or resistance to compression/extension).
And that's about all I know on that subject!

As for the numbers on the rail, then of course some of these may be specific to the Manufacturer, but it is also usual for a manufacturer to mark their raw product with a standardised grade or type reference. Sadly, the old British numbering system has been long abandoned, firstly rationalised into the "British Standard" numbering system (BS) and then into two European systems (EN numbers for the grade and quality of the steel and DIN for the dimensional standards of the product). I think (and may be corrected) that most steel bar produced in the UK today would be specified by a 5-digit number in the range EN 10xxx, whereas the old BS numbers were generally 4-digits.

If I'm right, then perhaps you need the advice of a long-standing steel worker (of which there are many in the north of England, central Scotland and south of Wales, though sadly no longer working in the steel industry) or a heritage collection of old steel working archives.
 

142094

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2009
Messages
8,789
Location
Newcastle
British Steel/Corus in Workington used to make a load of the rails for the UK (not sure if they had a monopoly on it, quite possibly). Most of the rails you see will have Workington etched onto it, and a date. Unfortunately never heard of Cammells though, apart from Metro Cammell.
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
I've been wondering more about this, so just done an internet search and found this from a "A BRIEF HISTORY OF DRONFIELD" by K.M.Battye (Dronfield is, I think, in Derbyshire, but close to England's steel capital, Sheffield, in South Yorkshire):
By 1811 Samuel Lucas, steel refiner, had set up a foundry exploiting his patent for malleable iron the ancient dyeworks site and by 1822 his brother Edward, had bought the works and continued family association with Dronfield lasting 160 years.

What was made in the Lucas foundry in the beginning is not precisely known, although one product is reputed to have been cannon balls during the Napoleonic Wars; certainly by 1828 firm was making spindles and fliers for the machinery of the fast expanding cotton, jute an linen trades in Lancashire, Dundee and Northern Ireland. Lucas's also made spades, shovels, files and railway wheels, steel spokes and plates of malleable iron at the whole pre 1870 mill dam site with its ancillary workshops and grinding shops.

There was another spindle and flier manufacturing concern at the Damstead Works of Ward, Camm and Siddall on Mill Lane and many smaller firms making sickles, reaping hooks, scythes and heavy edge tools.

Industrialisation in Dronfield reached its zenith its 1873 with the arrival of the Wilson Cammell steel rail making plant on Callywhite Lane and for ten years the town enjoyed boom conditions. The population rapidly increased, new areas of housing were built and many shops were opened.

The coal and the steel industries both suffered a decline in the 1880s and by 1883 the making plant had been removed to Workington Cumberland in an operation which astonished the commercial world.

The economic slump and the Wilson Cammell removal left Dronfield a stricken town with hundreds of empty houses and it was many years before there was a return to relative prosperity.

Some coal mining remained into the twentieth century and there were still some steel and tool making concerns, Lucas's foundry and spade shovel works amongst them.

The scars of the intense industrial activity of the nineteenth century healed slowly and now have mostly been obliterated although the town's core remains as an evocative reminder of a very different past.
Note that this doesn't contradict 142094's post about Workington as it suggests that Cammell's business relocated there, perhaps retaining the name.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,703
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
Cammell was a Sheffield-based steel maker with a world-wide reputation for the production of steel for railways. Its manufacturing output included steel rail, buffers, springs, in fact pretty much everything involved with the steel element of the railway. It later joined with Laird of Birkenhead to form the massive Cammell Laird Shipbuilding Company.

Cammell was particularly strong in the Americas as Railways were being constructed, and the standard "American" rail length of 45' came about through the ability of the ships to only carry rails of that length.

Turning now to the markings.

The "W" indicates it was rolled at Workington, 1890 is obviously the year of manufacture.

SEC 186 does not relate to the weight of the rail. The heaviest rail section ever rolled was 155lbs/yd. I surmise it may have been an indication that the rail was a special export contract and 186A potentially being the production batch number.

I can recommend a good book which gives the history of Cammel Laird if you are interested. It can be read over the Internet.
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
. . . . in fact pretty much everything involved with the steel element of the railway. It later joined with Laird of Birkenhead to form the massive Cammell Laird Shipbuilding Company.
I really should have been able to make that connection myself! (for ancient family reasons. My forgetfulness is almost humiliating!).

Thanks, OT.
 

142094

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2009
Messages
8,789
Location
Newcastle
IIRC Cammell Laird used to be on the Tyne, possibly at Hebburn. Didn't make the link between the two as well!
 

130MM

New Member
Joined
14 Dec 2010
Messages
2
Location
Wakefield, Massachusetts, USA
Thank you for all your replies.

I realize that the SEC 186A does not directly relate to rail weight. I assume it is the mill's designation for a particular rail section of whatever weight. I hoped that someone may have an old mill brochure that shows what weight the section was.

45 ft. was never the standard American rail length. Early in the last century the length was 33 ft. In the 1920's and 1930's the length became 39 ft. because the cars(wagons) carrying the rail were 40 ft. long. There are always exceptions, but this was the general rule. Most of the CWR of this period was welded from 39 ft. pieces of rail. It has only been recently that 78 ft. rails were being produced. And a rail mill just opened in Indiana that can produce 240 ft. rails. They are welded into CWR strings at the rail mill.

The museum also has rail rolled at "West Cumberland". Is this part of Cammell's, or was it a seperate concern? DaveNewcastle quotes the Donfield book in which is found the phrase "Workington Cumberland"; hence my question.

Interesting stuff.

DAW

PS Sorry for the non-Metric measurements.
 
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
696
Thank you for all your replies.

I realize that the SEC 186A does not directly relate to rail weight. I assume it is the mill's designation for a particular rail section of whatever weight. I hoped that someone may have an old mill brochure that shows what weight the section was.

45 ft. was never the standard American rail length. Early in the last century the length was 33 ft. In the 1920's and 1930's the length became 39 ft. because the cars(wagons) carrying the rail were 40 ft. long. There are always exceptions, but this was the general rule. Most of the CWR of this period was welded from 39 ft. pieces of rail. It has only been recently that 78 ft. rails were being produced. And a rail mill just opened in Indiana that can produce 240 ft. rails. They are welded into CWR strings at the rail mill.

The museum also has rail rolled at "West Cumberland". Is this part of Cammell's, or was it a seperate concern? DaveNewcastle quotes the Donfield book in which is found the phrase "Workington Cumberland"; hence my question.

Interesting stuff.

DAW

PS Sorry for the non-Metric measurements.

Never, ever apologise for non metric measurements. Some of us over here rather like imperial measurements which make more sense.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,703
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
...45 ft. was never the standard American rail length. ...
Thank you for the comment, I am part working in Central/South America and that was given to me as the standard rail length. I am told it was this length because of the length of the sectioning of the holds of the sea going cargo ships which transported the rail.

Obviously I have been mis-informed.
 

Trog

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2009
Messages
1,546
Location
In Retirement.
Thank you for the comment, I am part working in Central/South America and that was given to me as the standard rail length. I am told it was this length because of the length of the sectioning of the holds of the sea going cargo ships which transported the rail.

Obviously I have been mis-informed.


No I think you may have just got the journey the wrong way round.

The 45'-0" by ship is I think for later in time when the USA was exporting rail by ship rather than importing it. I believe rails imported into this country from the US during the war were also short for the same reason.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top