Campaign for Better Transport - The Case for Expanding the Rail Network

[yorksrob]

Its not about ending bus deregulation. It’s about specifying bus services to serve non-commercial markets. DfT or any local authority can do this now. They just need the money.

Take Penrith to Keswick for example; often suggested as a ‘no brainer’ for railway reopening. The government (national, sub national or local) could commit (for 10 years+) to a 4 bus per hour express service all day every day, with integrated rail ticketing, and it would cost rather less than half the cost of operating an hourly rail service. The bus would be far more frequent, with better connections, serve the centre of Keswick and Penrith (as well as Penrith station) so would be far more convenient for passengers. Journey time would be slightly longer (around 30 minutes for the bus, 25 for the train), but then the bus would have better town distribution, and most door to door journeys would be quicker, particularly given interchange time. Two other advantages: you could implement the bus solution within months rather than waiting a decade, and you don’t need to drop half a billion quids worth of taxpayers money on infrastructure to do it. Significantly cheaper for the funder, quicker to deliver, much more frequent, more convenient, generally quicker, with all the benefits of through rail ticketing: How can it not be a better solution, on all counts, than a new railway?

Besides, you repeatedly and consistently say you don’t like the system we have, as you believe it is biased against new railways*. So if we need to change the system, surely we should change it in a way that enables the best possible transport solution for passengers, at the lowest cost to the taxpayer?

I’m a lifelong railwayman (and I mean life, as long as I can remember I was going to be a railwayman, and I have been for well over half of it), and I want a larger and better rail system in this country. I chose this career specifically to do that, as I wanted to make a difference. (Those that know me might say that I have). But while railways are good for some things, they are not for others. I am open minded enough to acknowledge that for some transport ‘problems’ there are better solutions than new railways.


*It isn’t.

If what you say is true for the Keswick line, it must surely be true for the Borders railway, yet society chose rail as an option. And what is more, people there seem to be happy with it and are using the service, so there must be something to reconnecting towns to the railway network, even over providing through ticketing on the bus network. It must be possible, however unlikely, to get political/funding support for such schemes in the right prevailing conditions.

The result is that we now have a popular, functioning passenger railway and a string of satisfied communities where the accountants said such an outcome wasn't worthwhile. As someone who went into the industry to get a bigger railway, you must be thrilled and excited at the success of that project and want to see it replicated elsewhere ?

 

[A0wen]

If what you say is true for the Keswick line, it must surely be true for the Borders railway, yet society chose rail as an option. And what is more, people there seem to be happy with it and are using the service, so there must be something to reconnecting towns to the railway network, even over providing through ticketing on the bus network. It must be possible, however unlikely, to get political/funding support for such schemes in the right prevailing conditions.

The result is that we now have a popular, functioning passenger railway and a string of satisfied communities where the accountants said such an outcome wasn't worthwhile. As someone who went into the industry to get a bigger railway, you must be thrilled and excited at the success of that project and want to see it replicated elsewhere ?

Keswick - Penrith is less than 20 miles though, whereas Galashiels to Edinburgh is 35 - so distance is a factor.

Keswick has a population of less than 5000, Galashiels is 12,000. Add in Hawick with a further 15,000 - which is now only 15 miles from a railhead

 

[yorksrob]

Keswick - Penrith is less than 20 miles though, whereas Galashiels to Edinburgh is 35 - so distance is a factor.

Keswick has a population of less than 5000, Galashiels is 12,000. Add in Hawick with a further 15,000 - which is now only 15 miles from a railhead

But the project was still 'political' and would not pass the accountants test of value for money.

 

[tbtc]

Heavy rail is bulk transit, it is far too expensive a solution for hourly trains to small towns

I keep trying to explain this point on here - heavy rail is great when doing what it does best - it can soak up huge crowds that no motorway could deal with - it is brilliant at moving hundreds of people on "simple" flows.

It's not so great at dealing with other flows though - I think that the old adage of "If your only tool is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail" is worth repeating here - some people think that every problem can only be solved by expensive/ inflexible heavy rail that will take several years to construct and then cannot be simply adapted to adjust to changing demand patterns.

People come on here knowing the solution that they want to come up with ("build stations to connect the same old list of rural villages/towns") rather than identifying problems and working which ones can be best solved by heavy rail and which would be more suited to other options (and which problems are just too expensive to solve, considering how seasonal demand might be).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Take Penrith to Keswick for example; often suggested as a ‘no brainer’ for railway reopening. The government (national, sub national or local) could commit (for 10 years+) to a 4 bus per hour express service all day every day, with integrated rail ticketing, and it would cost rather less than half the cost of operating an hourly rail service. The bus would be far more frequent, with better connections, serve the centre of Keswick and Penrith (as well as Penrith station) so would be far more convenient for passengers. Journey time would be slightly longer (around 30 minutes for the bus, 25 for the train), but then the bus would have better town distribution, and most door to door journeys would be quicker, particularly given interchange time. Two other advantages: you could implement the bus solution within months rather than waiting a decade, and you don’t need to drop half a billion quids worth of taxpayers money on infrastructure to do it. Significantly cheaper for the funder, quicker to deliver, much more frequent, more convenient, generally quicker, with all the benefits of through rail ticketing: How can it not be a better solution, on all counts, than a new railway?

Those do sound like compelling advantages of the bus in that case. But just to throw in a couple of counter-arguments:

• Firstly, the train could offer through services, from Keswick to either Carlisle or (with a reverse at Penrith) to Lancaster. That would be more attractive to people who may be reluctant to change to a bus, even with integrated ticketing. A problem with buses is that they are inherently unreliable due to traffic conditions, and that could be an issue when travelling from Keswick and wanting to connect with a train that - perhaps - only runs every 2 hours from Penrith. Transporting luggage and cycles is also more problematic on buses, although that latter point will only impact a minority of passengers.
• Secondly, there is the issue of comfort. Personally, when travelling, I will go for a train every time because I know I can use the time productively by working/reading/etc. on a train. For buses... Even on high quality long distance coaches, I can't read for more than about 15 minutes without starting to feel pretty sick.

Also, why would a train take 25 minutes? It's about 15 miles. With a decently built new line, surely a train could do that in about 15 minutes? Or is the discussion based on the assumption that a new line would precisely follow every twist and turn on the pre-Beeching line?

Obviously, whether those benefits of the train outweigh the advantages you give for the bus is a matter of judgement. As is whether building a new line here should take a higher priority than building a new line in Manchester or Newcastle or somewhere

 

[70014IronDuke]

I'm sure many in here would like to see a route or two reinstated in England, but let's not try to start with Penrith to Keswick. True, it's not as bonkers as a certain line mentioned in SW Scotland, or THAT other one in the SW of the principality, but it's still never going to be a goer.
And comparing Keswick to the Borders towns and Penrith to Edinburgh???????
Assuming we may assume Aylesbury and Bicester to MK and Bedford will happen, how about focusing on something relatively simple, like the Blythe and Tyne?

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure many in here would like to see a route or two reinstated in England, but let's not try to start with Penrith to Keswick. True, it's not as bonkers as a certain line mentioned in SW Scotland, or THAT other one in the SW of the principality, but it's still never going to be a goer.
And comparing Keswick to the Borders towns and Penrith to Edinburgh???????
Assuming we may assume Aylesbury and Bicester to MK and Bedford will happen, how about focusing on something relatively simple, like the Blythe and Tyne?

It was Bald Rick who brought Keswick into the discussion (although I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see it).

Tavistock, on the otherhand, has over 11,000 people, and with Plymouth at the other end of the largely intact trackbed, would seem a good place to start.

 

[railjock]

Those do sound like compelling advantages of the bus in that case. But just to throw in a couple of counter-arguments:

• Firstly, the train could offer through services, from Keswick to either Carlisle or (with a reverse at Penrith) to Lancaster. That would be more attractive to people who may be reluctant to change to a bus, even with integrated ticketing. A problem with buses is that they are inherently unreliable due to traffic conditions, and that could be an issue when travelling from Keswick and wanting to connect with a train that - perhaps - only runs every 2 hours from Penrith. Transporting luggage and cycles is also more problematic on buses, although that latter point will only impact a minority of passengers.
• Secondly, there is the issue of comfort. Personally, when travelling, I will go for a train every time because I know I can use the time productively by working/reading/etc. on a train. For buses... Even on high quality long distance coaches, I can't read for more than about 15 minutes without starting to feel pretty sick.

Also, why would a train take 25 minutes? It's about 15 miles. With a decently built new line, surely a train could do that in about 15 minutes? Or is the discussion based on the assumption that a new line would precisely follow every twist and turn on the pre-Beeching line?

Obviously, whether those benefits of the train outweigh the advantages you give for the bus is a matter of judgement. As is whether building a new line here should take a higher priority than building a new line in Manchester or Newcastle or somewhere

Re the times. To get from Edinburgh to Tweedbank by train takes just under an hour to do about 35 miles.

 

[Bald Rick]

If what you say is true for the Keswick line, it must surely be true for the Borders railway, yet society chose rail as an option. And what is more, people there seem to be happy with it and are using the service, so there must be something to reconnecting towns to the railway network, even over providing through ticketing on the bus network. It must be possible, however unlikely, to get political/funding support for such schemes in the right prevailing conditions.

The result is that we now have a popular, functioning passenger railway and a string of satisfied communities where the accountants said such an outcome wasn't worthwhile. As someone who went into the industry to get a bigger railway, you must be thrilled and excited at the success of that project and want to see it replicated elsewhere ?

Penrith-Keswick is a little different to Borders. Firstly, the A66 is a much better road than the equivalent A7, including a stretch of dual carriageway. Secondly there are no intermediate settlements worth stopping an express bus at (or train for that matter). Thirdly, neither Penrith or Keswick have major traffic problems, or at least not anything like trying to drive into central Edinburgh. Taken together, an express bus between Penrith and Keswick would be much closer journey time wise than Edinburgh - Tweedbank. This is my point, Rail isn’t the best solution for everything. It’s not even the best solution for most things.

Being thrilled and excited about Borders - no I’m not. The money could have been much better spent elsewhere on the rail network to make it bigger, better and more efficient, even in Scotland. £400m could have gone a long way on some of the more deserving projects, including some reopenings (Leven, Abertillery, Ashington for example).

Those do sound like compelling advantages of the bus in that case. But just to throw in a couple of counter-arguments:

• Firstly, the train could offer through services, from Keswick to either Carlisle or (with a reverse at Penrith) to Lancaster. That would be more attractive to people who may be reluctant to change to a bus, even with integrated ticketing. A problem with buses is that they are inherently unreliable due to traffic conditions, and that could be an issue when travelling from Keswick and wanting to connect with a train that - perhaps - only runs every 2 hours from Penrith. Transporting luggage and cycles is also more problematic on buses, although that latter point will only impact a minority of passengers.
• Secondly, there is the issue of comfort. Personally, when travelling, I will go for a train every time because I know I can use the time productively by working/reading/etc. on a train. For buses... Even on high quality long distance coaches, I can't read for more than about 15 minutes without starting to feel pretty sick.

Also, why would a train take 25 minutes? It's about 15 miles. With a decently built new line, surely a train could do that in about 15 minutes? Or is the discussion based on the assumption that a new line would precisely follow every twist and turn on the pre-Beeching line?

Obviously, whether those benefits of the train outweigh the advantages you give for the bus is a matter of judgement. As is whether building a new line here should take a higher priority than building a new line in Manchester or Newcastle or somewhere

It’s 18 miles from Penrith station to Keswick bus station by road (and it’s a very good road). The old rail line is about 2 miles further due to topography. I’m afraid if it were reinstated it would have to follow most of the old line, both to get up some of the gradient stuff and also to follow the valley of the River Greta into Keswick itself.

Through services - unlikely given WCML capacity, something else would probably have to make may.

Comfort - agree that trains will generally be more comfortable, however I have used the buses up there regularly and actually they are pretty good - decent seats, good legroom, WiFi and loads of luggage space.

I'm sure many in here would like to see a route or two reinstated in England, but let's not try to start with Penrith to Keswick. True, it's not as bonkers as a certain line mentioned in SW Scotland, or THAT other one in the SW of the principality, but it's still never going to be a goer.
And comparing Keswick to the Borders towns and Penrith to Edinburgh???????
Assuming we may assume Aylesbury and Bicester to MK and Bedford will happen, how about focusing on something relatively simple, like the Blythe and Tyne?

I used Penrith - Keswick purely as an example of somewhere where in a rational world we would have the Campaign for Better Transport, err, campaigning for better transport in the form of a much better bus service which would offer benefits at least as good as a new railway, for a minute fraction of the cost and much more quickly delivered.

 

[yorksrob]

Penrith-Keswick is a little different to Borders. Firstly, the A66 is a much better road than the equivalent A7, including a stretch of dual carriageway. Secondly there are no intermediate settlements worth stopping an express bus at (or train for that matter). Thirdly, neither Penrith or Keswick have major traffic problems, or at least not anything like trying to drive into central Edinburgh. Taken together, an express bus between Penrith and Keswick would be much closer journey time wise than Edinburgh - Tweedbank. This is my point, Rail isn’t the best solution for everything. It’s not even the best solution for most things.

Being thrilled and excited about Borders - no I’m not. The money could have been much better spent elsewhere on the rail network to make it bigger, better and more efficient, even in Scotland. £400m could have gone a long way on some of the more deserving projects, including some reopenings (Leven, Abertillery, Ashington for example).

Well, that is a genuine shame.

We have a happy population which has a good train service that it's always wanted. An historical wrong righted, a resounding affirmation of faith in the railway by the local people who use it and a victory for the railway industry, yet you can't bring yourself to see all of this out of ideological obstinacy.

Rather like we're told for HS2, what makes you think that had the money not been used to reopen the Borders line, it would would have been made available to these other worthy projects that you mention ? Perhaps the truth is that those lines proponents, such as yourself, haven't yet made the case hard enough for them, and as a result, the money would have been spent on another by-pass.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well, that is a genuine shame.

We have a happy population which has a good train service that it's always wanted. An historical wrong righted, a resounding affirmation of faith in the railway by the local people who use it and a victory for the railway industry, yet you can't bring yourself to see all of this out of ideological obstinacy.

Rather like we're told for HS2, what makes you think that had the money not been used to reopen the Borders line, it would would have been made available to these other worthy projects that you mention ? Perhaps the truth is that those lines proponents, such as yourself, haven't yet made the case hard enough for them, and as a result, the money would have been spent on another by-pass.

It not ideological at all (by me). It’s factual. There wasn’t a case for Borders, it was built to satisfy a political requirement. There is a case to open some other lines - not many, but some nevertheless.

 

[Brush 4]

'There is a case to open some other lines - not many, but some nevertheless.'
And they are..........?

 

[A0wen]

'There is a case to open some other lines - not many, but some nevertheless.'
And they are..........?

Can I suggest you scroll up to post #160 where @Bald Rick stated:

"The money could have been much better spent elsewhere on the rail network to make it bigger, better and more efficient, even in Scotland. £400m could have gone a long way on some of the more deserving projects, including some reopenings (Leven, Abertillery, Ashington for example)."

So there's three to be going on with.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Can I suggest you scroll up to post #160 where @Bald Rick stated:

"The money could have been much better spent elsewhere on the rail network to make it bigger, better and more efficient, even in Scotland. £400m could have gone a long way on some of the more deserving projects, including some reopenings (Leven, Abertillery, Ashington for example)."

So there's three to be going on with.

Could we mention Carmarthen to Aberystwyth ?

 

[A0wen]

Could we mention Carmarthen to Aberystwyth ?

Why not go the whole hog and include the M&GN network, the S&D, Northampton - Peterboro and Northampton - Bedford and basically anything which Holman F Stevens decided was a basket case - that ought to give us a rail network fit for the 21st century....... Whilst we're at it, all of them should be electrified at 25kv and have 8 coach trains which MUST have 2+2 seating, opening windows, aircon, full catering provision..... oh yes and free unicorn to every passenger

 

[yorksrob]

Can I suggest you scroll up to post #160 where @Bald Rick stated:

"The money could have been much better spent elsewhere on the rail network to make it bigger, better and more efficient, even in Scotland. £400m could have gone a long way on some of the more deserving projects, including some reopenings (Leven, Abertillery, Ashington for example)."

So there's three to be going on with.

Although of course, there's no guarantee that the powers that be would have reallocated the funding to another transport, let alone railway project.

 

[yorksrob]

Why not go the whole hog and include the M&GN network, the S&D, Northampton - Peterboro and Northampton - Bedford and basically anything which Holman F Stevens decided was a basket case - that ought to give us a rail network fit for the 21st century....... Whilst we're at it, all of them should be electrified at 25kv and have 8 coach trains which MUST have 2+2 seating, opening windows, aircon, full catering provision..... oh yes and free unicorn to every passenger

Or why not get on with Tavistock, Portishead, Wisbech, Skelmersdale etc.

 

[A0wen]

Or why not get on with Tavistock, Portishead, Wisbech, Skelmersdale etc.

Because as @Bald Rick has pointed out - two of those probably won't wash their face. And whether you like it or not, unless or until they have a viable Business Case behind them, they won't go anywhere.

Generally I agree with the sentiments Bald Rick has expressed, the only one I'd question is Abertillery - which whilst I completely agree is in a deprived area, it's only 3 miles away from the nearest station at Llanhilleth. If the target was Brynmawr at the head of the valley, I'm not sure that would work as that's only 3 miles from Ebbw Vale Town. That's the same kind of distance that you have from St Albans City station to the edge of St Albans in places like New Greens, Sandridge or Jersey Farm. It's not like the re-opening of Ebbw Vale where previously it was 20 or so miles to the nearest station.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Why not go the whole hog and include the M&GN network, the S&D, Northampton - Peterboro and Northampton - Bedford and basically anything which Holman F Stevens decided was a basket case - that ought to give us a rail network fit for the 21st century....... Whilst we're at it, all of them should be electrified at 25kv and have 8 coach trains which MUST have 2+2 seating, opening windows, aircon, full catering provision..... oh yes and free unicorn to every passenger

Of course ...not forgetting the pre 1937 Welsh Highland with a winter train service which for weeks carried absolutely fresh air (but provided work and coal for the staff) , and the unbelievable basket case of the Fort Augustus line. Thumbs up !

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Because as @Bald Rick has pointed out - two of those probably won't wash their face. And whether you like it or not, unless or until they have a viable Business Case behind them, they won't go anywhere.

Generally I agree with the sentiments Bald Rick has expressed, the only one I'd question is Abertillery - which whilst I completely agree is in a deprived area, it's only 3 miles away from the nearest station at Llanhilleth. If the target was Brynmawr at the head of the valley, I'm not sure that would work as that's only 3 miles from Ebbw Vale Town. That's the same kind of distance that you have from St Albans City station to the edge of St Albans in places like New Greens, Sandridge or Jersey Farm. It's not like the re-opening of Ebbw Vale where previously it was 20 or so miles to the nearest station.

That really is an excellent point and well made. (and no - I am not sitting here in the soft SE - well yes actually - and I do know the area concerned) , both SAC and Abertillery.

One of the things I regret - and we had the spare cash in 2010 , was to do a full origin and destination study on the VoG and the Ebbw Vale lines (both of which I had some input in pushing through the funding) , I suspect that the excellent patronage was a transfer of road commuting to rail from outside the immediate area. No bad thing in itself , but worthy of research. An ex Regional Railways manager noted that new services often did better than expected in area of quite high car ownership......obviously some benefits to those local non car owners , but perhaps maybe a bit more cash strapped.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Generally I agree with the sentiments Bald Rick has expressed, the only one I'd question is Abertillery - which whilst I completely agree is in a deprived area, it's only 3 miles away from the nearest station at Llanhilleth. If the target was Brynmawr at the head of the valley, I'm not sure that would work as that's only 3 miles from Ebbw Vale Town. That's the same kind of distance that you have from St Albans City station to the edge of St Albans in places like New Greens, Sandridge or Jersey Farm. It's not like the re-opening of Ebbw Vale where previously it was 20 or so miles to the nearest station.

I would think another potential issue with Abertillery is: How would the trains fit in to the branch? Is there enough demand to run the planned 2tph to Ebbw Vale AND Abertillery-somewhere trains, or is there a risk that opening that spur and running some trains to Abertillery would simply mean Ebbw Vale gets fewer trains?

 

[cle]

I think the Abertillery branch was also a smart idea to increase frequency somewhat - it's a town of 11k people, the same as Galashiels really and a nudge over the 10k mark people tend to see as a reopening absolute minimum.

The route has been successful and there is still the dichotomy between running to Newport or Cardiff. In time, if the South Wales metro happens, there would be an appetite to run to both, and possibly more than 1tph to each? This would help that.

 

[yorksrob]

Because as @Bald Rick has pointed out - two of those probably won't wash their face. And whether you like it or not, unless or until they have a viable Business Case behind them, they won't go anywhere.

Generally I agree with the sentiments Bald Rick has expressed, the only one I'd question is Abertillery - which whilst I completely agree is in a deprived area, it's only 3 miles away from the nearest station at Llanhilleth. If the target was Brynmawr at the head of the valley, I'm not sure that would work as that's only 3 miles from Ebbw Vale Town. That's the same kind of distance that you have from St Albans City station to the edge of St Albans in places like New Greens, Sandridge or Jersey Farm. It's not like the re-opening of Ebbw Vale where previously it was 20 or so miles to the nearest station.

And as Bald Rick has also pointed out, the Borders line supposedly doesn't "wash its face", and yet here it is.

 

[Bald Rick]

Because as @Bald Rick has pointed out - two of those probably won't wash their face. And whether you like it or not, unless or until they have a viable Business Case behind them, they won't go anywhere.

Generally I agree with the sentiments Bald Rick has expressed, the only one I'd question is Abertillery - which whilst I completely agree is in a deprived area, it's only 3 miles away from the nearest station at Llanhilleth. If the target was Brynmawr at the head of the valley, I'm not sure that would work as that's only 3 miles from Ebbw Vale Town. That's the same kind of distance that you have from St Albans City station to the edge of St Albans in places like New Greens, Sandridge or Jersey Farm. It's not like the re-opening of Ebbw Vale where previously it was 20 or so miles to the nearest station.

Fair challenge. I’m a regular in Abertillery, and it is just about the most deprived place I’ve been to in this country. I’m not sure about the comparison to St Albans; which economically is the polar opposite and has a thriving local economy itself. Yes it’s only 3 miles from central Abertillery to Llanhilleth station, (but at least half a mile further if you are up the valley towards Cwmtillery) but you need to find a way to get there, and an awful lot of people don’t have their own transport (unlike St Albans, where just about every household who wants a car has at least one). Walking 3 miles along the old main road is a quite unpleasant experience, whereas from the areas you mention in St Albans it’s almost nice (I’ve done two of the three you mention as part of my commute in the past, both around 2 miles rather than 3). Whilst most of St Albans has a good bus service (3 an hour to New Greens and Jersey farm, on the same route!), Abertillery has 2 an hour down the valley via Llanhilleth (one to Newport, one to Cwmbran) and they are about 3 minutes apart. The connection to the train isn’t too bad down the valley but bad on the way back up. The bus journey times are generally awful. I suppose the issue is that whilst it’s only 3 miles away, it may as well be 30miles for the majority of the population there. This simply isn’t the case for St Albans.

One reason for suggesting this line it is that, unlike most potential new lines, it does have a completely intact formation, much of it still with the track down. Whilst the formation would need some remediation, and all the track will need replacing, it would be a relatively cheap line to reinstate, perhaps £40m-£50m; probably less if done to tram train standards (as that is what is coming to the valleys). The most important reason, though, is that it is a reasonably sized settlement which desperately needs better connectivity to enable economic regeneration - in particular to connect a large unemployed working age population to the jobs of Cardiff and Newport. It would have better benefits than, say, Borders for about a tenth of the cost.

To challenge myself - could a vastly improved bus service do the same job for less cash? Possibly, although it probably would need to be a bus service to Newport or Cardiff to have a similar regeneration effect and the journey times wouldn’t be at all competitive, particularly to Cardiff. It would need checking, but I suspect rail would win in this instance. The important thing is to base it on hard evidence, and good analysis.

I would think another potential issue with Abertillery is: How would the trains fit in to the branch? Is there enough demand to run the planned 2tph to Ebbw Vale AND Abertillery-somewhere trains, or is there a risk that opening that spur and running some trains to Abertillery would simply mean Ebbw Vale gets fewer trains?

Another fair challenge. It depends on the extent of double tracking, about which I must admit I don’t know the latest position. If it’s double track most of the way then 3tph is no issue. Subject to capacity at Cardiff or Newport of course.

And as Bald Rick has also pointed out, the Borders line supposedly doesn't "wash its face", and yet here it is.

And also as I pointed out, repeatedly, you are very unlikely to see any new lines that have a case as poor as Borders to be opened. There were some very specific political reasons for that line being opened, and they won’t be happening again.

 

[HowardGWR]

That really is an excellent point and well made. (and no - I am not sitting here in the soft SE - well yes actually - and I do know the area concerned) , both SAC and Abertillery.

One of the things I regret - and we had the spare cash in 2010 , was to do a full origin and destination study on the VoG and the Ebbw Vale lines (both of which I had some input in pushing through the funding) , I suspect that the excellent patronage was a transfer of road commuting to rail from outside the immediate area. No bad thing in itself , but worthy of research. An ex Regional Railways manager noted that new services often did better than expected in area of quite high car ownership......obviously some benefits to those local non car owners , but perhaps maybe a bit more cash strapped.

Those are good points and my experience with O/D studies is that they can reveal at what point the car can be abandoned at a point that is essentially park and ride. In its favour, the Borders line has enabled people to travel comfortably into the centre of Edinburgh. The Valleys lines, just discussed, enable the same to Cardiff and Newport. The lines into Exeter do well because the pax end up bang in the centre, which is why the Okehampton reopening will be a goer in my view (and that of Devon CC). It will just replace the bus service already incorporated into the present rail timetable.

 

[A0wen]

And as Bald Rick has also pointed out, the Borders line supposedly doesn't "wash its face", and yet here it is.

The big factor which favoured Borders, as it did for Ebbw Vale, was quite how detached those communities were from the rail network. Using Galashiels as the example you were looking at Edinburgh circa 30 miles or Berwick circa 40. It's worse for Hawick which is now 17 miles to a rail connection, which was much more before.

Tavistock by comparison is 5 miles from Gunnislake. Wisbech is 10 miles to March BUT Kings Lynn, Downham Market are also easily accessible and offer a better service to Cambridge or London.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the political reasons for the reopening of the Borders line/ex Waverley route to Tweedbank, the Scottish Parliament elects its MSPs under the d'Hont method of proportional representation. With the exception of the 2011-2016 term of the Scottish Parliament where the SNP had an outright majority, this system of proportional representation is designed in most instances where no party would have an outright majority. This encourages either a minority administration, or a coalition where some parties are encouraged to work together depending on the maths.

From 1999-2007 the Scottish Parliament was a coalition of New Labour (they were not new, and were most certainly not Labour at all in the traditional sense) and Liberal Democrats. When New Labour wanted to scrap bridge tolls on the Forth, Erskine, and Skye, the Lib Dems would support that on the proviso that New Labour would support the extension of the railway from Newcraighall to Tweedbank. The Borders Region at the time was safe Lib Dem territory, as were parts of the Highlands. Glasgow and Edinburgh were safe Red/Blue Labour at that time.

Although the following comment would be a better fit in the General Discussion section, maybe it is time for the Westminster Parliament to use a similar method of proportional representation? By this, I do not mean the Alternative Vote that was proposed by David Cameron (and rejected), as that would not have much effect on the outcome of the result at all.

 

[yorksrob]

The big factor which favoured Borders, as it did for Ebbw Vale, was quite how detached those communities were from the rail network. Using Galashiels as the example you were looking at Edinburgh circa 30 miles or Berwick circa 40. It's worse for Hawick which is now 17 miles to a rail connection, which was much more before.

Tavistock by comparison is 5 miles from Gunnislake. Wisbech is 10 miles to March BUT Kings Lynn, Downham Market are also easily accessible and offer a better service to Cambridge or London.

This forum really does amaze me.

If someone suggests reopening the Somerset and Dorset for example, the standard response is that there's no case for reinstating long and winding rural routes. Look for a short line linking a reasonably sized town with an employment centre.

We find a reasonably sized town that could easily be linked to the nearest employment centre and the answer is that we need to find long winding rural routes linking detatched communities. Come on sons of Beeching, make up your minds !

It would be comical were it not a sad reflection of Government policy in England.

 

[yorksrob]

Regarding the political reasons for the reopening of the Borders line/ex Waverley route to Tweedbank, the Scottish Parliament elects its MSPs under the d'Hont method of proportional representation. With the exception of the 2011-2016 term of the Scottish Parliament where the SNP had an outright majority, this system of proportional representation is designed in most instances where no party would have an outright majority. This encourages either a minority administration, or a coalition where some parties are encouraged to work together depending on the maths.

From 1999-2007 the Scottish Parliament was a coalition of New Labour (they were not new, and were most certainly not Labour at all in the traditional sense) and Liberal Democrats. When New Labour wanted to scrap bridge tolls on the Forth, Erskine, and Skye, the Lib Dems would support that on the proviso that New Labour would support the extension of the railway from Newcraighall to Tweedbank. The Borders Region at the time was safe Lib Dem territory, as were parts of the Highlands. Glasgow and Edinburgh were safe Red/Blue Labour at that time.

Although the following comment would be a better fit in the General Discussion section, maybe it is time for the Westminster Parliament to use a similar method of proportional representation? By this, I do not mean the Alternative Vote that was proposed by David Cameron (and rejected), as that would not have much effect on the outcome of the result at all.

Indeed, but the Tory party would have to wither as a political force first.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Back to the subject of this thread.... that CBT report. I couldn't help noticing that some of the lines it suggests as Priority 2 for re-opening include Dumfries-Stranraer and Carmarthen-Aberystwyth, both of which would generally be regarded as having no business case, yet doesn't ever mention an obvious potential urban re-opening like Blackpool South-Central. I'd have thought Blackpool Central would come way above those rural lines in any set of priorities for re-opening.

Another oddity: Alton-Winchester is not mentioned. That's a line that would look like quite a useful link (albeit lower priority than many more urban lines and politically tricky because of the question of what would happen to the Watercress Line) because of the intermediate population and because of linking Farnham/Aldershot to Winchester/Southampton. Yet it mentions Alton-Fareham - which would seem on the surface like a far less useful line that serves next to no intermediate population. (In fact, I don't recall ever seeing Alton-Fareham get suggested before as a useful re-opening. Certainly I've never seen it mentioned on these forums).