Campaign for Malton-Pickering reopening to allow services to Whitby

[tbtc]

Is it just me or is it not a bit WEIRD that people on a presumably pro rail forum are getting REALLY REALLY ANGRY at the mere suggestion of re-opening a Railway

No - I think it shows that people on here are fairly realistic and practical when it comes to all of the fanciful suggestions that we see (especially when it comes to some local MP wanting to spend tens of millions of other people's money on something that will help them look good with their constituents).

There are some lines that deserve to open and some that are really not a priority right now. For example, the East-West link from the Chilterns to Bedfordshire is a good example of a line linking populated areas which deserves to be reopened and will have wider benefits (linking the MML to the GWML, providing a "non Birmingham" route for freight etc).

But you get plenty of people suggesting some fairly naive things (not a dig at this suggestion in North Yorkshire, am making a general point). When we are struggling to find enough seats for existing passengers and have a couple of hundred DMUs requiring replacement (or *significant* upgrade) in a few years, we don't have the resources to rebuild every forgotten branch).

It's a bit like going on a football forum and suggesting a long list of players that your club should buy - some may be realistic, some may be rather fanciful - you wouldn't expect your fellow fans to agree with all of them.
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Perhaps that is because some have a deeper understanding of the particular issues here, and can recognise that there will actually be detrimental effects.

However, if the counsellors had the access and influence to make this happen, they would be dealing with decision makers at the DFT, behind closed doors. They wouldn't be messing about with petitions, which are notoriously ineffective. In all probability, this is just grandstanding to the local electorate.

Good point - a lot of this is local hot air for politicians/ businesspeople/ MPs (etc) to show that they are making a lot of noise - rather than anything practical.

The Harrogate "Underground" example sums this up. Rather than lobbying behind the scenes and making informed points, the Chamber of Commerce (?) came up with an impractical idea that made the upgrading of their local line into a talking point (even if there was no realistic chance of it happening). A lot of the time these plans are just "back of the fag packet" suggestions more concerned with getting into the papers than getting into the Network Rail spending plans.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A lot of the time these plans are just "back of the fag packet" suggestions more concerned with getting into the papers than getting into the Network Rail spending plans.

As is so often the case, our resident "Sage of Sheffield" has succinctly stated the matter "in a nutshell".

 

[Sidious]

Good to see comment being made by a senior personage in the heritage line with regards to the effects this proposal would have upon them.

While I agree with other posters that the scheme is a non-starter, and probably unnecessary in the light of good bus links between Malton and Pickering, I do find it somewhat ironic that the NYMR are suggesting that them sharing their tracks with National Rail services would be problematic, whilst at the same time seeking to expand their service over the National Rail route from Grosmont to Whitby, which they clearly do not see as a problem!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yeah i have gone off the scheme to be honest, i see its only potential as a parkway for wider area outside pickering, also providing better commuter options for malton and haxby.
Not really through services to be honest.

 

[Chris125]

...which they clearly do not see as a problem!

I don't think it's strange that the capacity issue is on the much more intensively operated railway which doesn't benefit from any government subsidy and requires volunteers to be viable.

Chris

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just a thought...

If there is such a demand for extra passenger transportation needs in that area, why do not the existing bus and coach companies see the benefit of increasing their existing service provision to meet the stated demand that some in this thread seem convinced that exists ?

 

[AndyHudds]

Has anyone actually caught the Coastliner from Leeds to Whitby?What a massive pain in the behind that is. Anyone who likes to use Whitby for leisure purposes would probably kill for the reinstatement of the line if it meant not catching the Coastliner bus,although I that's a small part of the bigger picture I'll admit, on the other hand surely it would be a massive boon to Whitby tourism and tourism in general in the area. It does irk me a little that Whitby is totally inaccesible from West Yorkshire and the rest of Yorkshire for that matte by rail and if I wanted to get the train to Whitby I have to go via Middlesbrough which isn't really practical.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has anyone actually caught the Coastliner from Leeds to Whitby?

I have, both from Leeds and from York. What is that you do not like about this service..is it the type of seating that is provided? There are similar Transdev buses running the X43 "Lancashire Witch" service from Nelson/Burnley to Manchester, with good quality high-backed seating, which I would use in preference to an alternative rail service that was run with the Class 142 Pacers fitted with "old-style" bus seats.

 

[AndyHudds]

The over 3 hour journey time for a start off,the buses are modern and comfortable but not after 3 hours.No toilet, although yeah you can relieve yourself at Malton bus garage,its far from ideal. If your going for the day that's 6 hours on a bus, surely a train journey would be better? If the line was reinstated a stop for Flamingo Land could be included, as I said though I understand its only a small part of the bigger picture. I find it hard to believe that the tourism industry in that part of Yorkshire are 100% behind the idea.

 

[Ploughman]

Just a thought...

If there is such a demand for extra passenger transportation needs in that area, why do not the existing bus and coach companies see the benefit of increasing their existing service provision to meet the stated demand that some in this thread seem convinced that exists ?

As an aside on this.
There was a fairly decent MoorsBus service that has recently curtailed a number of services around the Pickering - Helmsley area.
If that is the case then it does not look as if the demand does exist.

 

[moggie]

Last time I visited the NYMR travelling from Malton it took around 45 mins to get there and park up. Horendous traffic congestion entering Pickering and then a trawl to find a car park with free spaces (actually space). I would guess a fair proportion of that traffic was tourist related. A train would have been very welcome for me and a godsend to the people of Pickering just going about their day.

I'm surprise (if indeed true) that the NYMR as one of the larger local businesses aren't a little more aware of their effect on traffic levels in the town and the consequential negative impact on other trades - sustainability - is that the term?.

I'm sure they rightly are quick to highlight the positive aspects of bringing people to the area. I would have liked them to be a little more proactive in identifying potential solutions to the undoubted impact on their operations a new line would create by at least giving initial support to any proposal - pipedream that it maybe.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has anyone contacted Northern to elicit their views on running this proposed rail service, as this lies within their franchise area and more suited to their operations than First Transpennine Express.

It is important to bear in mind there is a paucity of availability of rolling stock and even if such a service was up and running, I have nightmarish visions of what rolling stock dedicated to this line would be.

Complete the phrase below by adding the missing letters and numbers:-
Class 1*2 P**e*s

 

[tbtc]

Has anyone contacted Northern to elicit their views on running this proposed rail service, as this lies within their franchise area and more suited to their operations than First Transpennine Express.

It is important to bear in mind there is a paucity of availability of rolling stock and even if such a service was up and running, I have nightmarish visions of what rolling stock dedicated to this line would be.

Complete the phrase below by adding the missing letters and numbers:-
Class 1*2 P**e*s

Paul - you are spoiling the illusion that some people have that they'll get nice new stock on any reopened line (as if there are going to be spare 185s found for a Whitby service, whilst existing lines continue to struggle with Pacers)

 

[30907]

There was a fairly decent MoorsBus service that has recently curtailed a number of services around the Pickering - Helmsley area.
If that is the case then it does not look as if the demand does exist.

The Moorsbus is (heavily?) subsidised by the NYM National Park which has had its budget cut. I have to say that when I've travelled on midweek services (which I think is mostly what have been cut) it has been lightly used.

The Whitby coastliner itself has had its frequency cut, which may be a better indicator of lack of demand (it never ran at commuter times anyway, which I don't think is at all surprising). OT - one of the journeys that went was operated by a double decker (avoiding Goathland!), an interesting experience up the bank from Sleights.

 

[Ploughman]

Last time I visited the NYMR travelling from Malton it took around 45 mins to get there and park up. Horendous traffic congestion entering Pickering and then a trawl to find a car park with free spaces (actually space). I would guess a fair proportion of that traffic was tourist related. A train would have been very welcome for me and a godsend to the people of Pickering just going about their day.

I'm surprise (if indeed true) that the NYMR as one of the larger local businesses aren't a little more aware of their effect on traffic levels in the town and the consequential negative impact on other trades - sustainability - is that the term?.

I'm sure they rightly are quick to highlight the positive aspects of bringing people to the area. I would have liked them to be a little more proactive in identifying potential solutions to the undoubted impact on their operations a new line would create by at least giving initial support to any proposal - pipedream that it maybe.

The NYMR has over the years tried to increase the parking available but planning permission has been repeatedly turned down for an extension to the existing station carpark.
The only other easy option was to take over the Trout farm carpark a few hundred yards along the road past the station.
On peak dates there has also been a park and ride set up from the showground south of Pickering but that will incur quite high costs due to rental of the ground and provision of transport.
This site cannot be counted on, though, to be available all the time due to the existing purpose of the showground in holding ts own events. The biggest during peak season being the Traction Engine rally as well as car boot sales every week.

 

[JohnCarlson]

While I agree with other posters that the scheme is a non-starter, and probably unnecessary in the light of good bus links between Malton and Pickering, I do find it somewhat ironic that the NYMR are suggesting that them sharing their tracks with National Rail services would be problematic, whilst at the same time seeking to expand their service over the National Rail route from Grosmont to Whitby, which they clearly do not see as a problem!

No really sure if the NYMR would object to a connection at the south end of the railway. It would make it a lot easier to access from the south. Don't know figures but the fact that there are only four or five trains each day each way on the Esk Valley line and none on Sundays dosent really give it much of a national rail connection.

Its always a dynamic situation. The constent rain we are having might be denting visitor numbers meaning new sources of income are needed.
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Just a thought...

If there is such a demand for extra passenger transportation needs in that area, why do not the existing bus and coach companies see the benefit of increasing their existing service provision to meet the stated demand that some in this thread seem convinced that exists ?

That on is easy. Because there are commuters who will take the train but when the only other option is the bus they will take the car.

Similarly if you are traveling to Whitby from Leeds as a day visitor simply staying on the train is a far better option than having to change onto a bus at York.
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Has anyone contacted Northern to elicit their views on running this proposed rail service, as this lies within their franchise area and more suited to their operations than First Transpennine Express.

It is important to bear in mind there is a paucity of availability of rolling stock and even if such a service was up and running, I have nightmarish visions of what rolling stock dedicated to this line would be.

Complete the phrase below by adding the missing letters and numbers:-
Class 1*2 P**e*s

The limited state of rolling stock in the North East and many other areas is hardly news. As there is much discussion on this forum or railways that haven't even got as far as an agreed line on a map and rolling stock that has not even been designed I don't see why that should prevent speculation on how a railway that largely exists might operate if an extension is made at some time in the future.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That on is easy. Because there are commuters who will take the train but when the only other option is the bus they will take the car. Similarly if you are traveling to Whitby from Leeds as a day visitor simply staying on the train is a far better option than having to change onto a bus at York.

Other forum members have already noted the reduction in the bus service provision based upon the actual numbers who use that mode of travel. Perhaps you should return to those postings and read what was said.

The seasonal day-tripper travelling market from either Leeds or York to Whitby is one that I hope you are not basing your line reopening proposals upon, as not only will there be the matter of the Malton to Pickering section, which has received many posting responses already, but also the continuation onwards (through the town of Pickering) from Pickering to Whitby, which too has received many posting responses upon this thread.
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Oh, and by the way, a Happy Christmas to you.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Other forum members have already noted the reduction in the bus service provision based upon the actual numbers who use that mode of travel. Perhaps you should return to those postings and read what was said.

The seasonal day-tripper travelling market from either Leeds or York to Whitby is one that I hope you are not basing your line reopening proposals upon, as not only will there be the matter of the Malton to Pickering section, which has received many posting responses already, but also the continuation onwards (through the town of Pickering) from Pickering to Whitby, which too has received many posting responses upon this thread.
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Oh, and by the way, a Happy Christmas to you.

I am not proposing to reopen the line. I am talking of how that might be achieved if it were to happen and what the benefits might be. A bus is not a train in the same way that being pushed along in a handcart is not a taxi.

For me the money would be far better spent in the Newcastle area on rebuilding the Line to Consett, reopening the Leamside line and the line to Ashington. Indeed the best that seems to be said for Whitby is that it has a static population. In much of the Cleveland area it is falling and if you were to follow this line of logic you could begin to think of disinvestment and closure of the lines around Teesside. However that is not the game I am in and would prefer to think of them growing.

And a happy Christmas to you. For the moment I shall return to Where Eagles Dare and Richard Burton's forthcoming confutation with Clint Eastwood.

 

[Sidious]

Since the e-petition opened on 22nd October it has received 169 signatures. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the plan!

 

[AndyHudds]

Any re-instatement of this line would be mainly in the interest of tourism which it would be a massive boon if they could factor in a station for Flamingo Land.The day trip business to Whitby would probably go through the roof and the town probably wouldn't be able to cope with the increased influx of visitors. I'm not sure the local people aren't that fussed to be honest, if they advertised the petition where all the day trippers and tourists are ie The Yorkshire Post or other regional Yorkshire papers then maybe more would sign it. I don't live in York and I don't read the York Press, so I wouldn't have even known about it it hadn't been posted on here.

In all honesty it was a massive own goal cutting the line in the first place, obviously brain cells were in short supply that day.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Being one of the more elderly of the forum membership, it still came as a shock to me that Pickering railway station, one that I had used many times in my early youthful days, will see the 8th March to come as no less than the 48th anniversary of its closure by British Rail. It makes me feel my age..

 

[tbtc]

There really needs to be more of a case made for a re-opened line than the hope that Leeds residents will forgo Scarborough for Whitby on a handful of summer weekends.

Scarborough justifies an hourly service to York/ Leeds/ beyond, but then it is roughly four times the size of Whitby (and has a Student population etc).

Then again, given the popularity of the Folk Trains and Ale Trains, a Whitby Goth Train all the way from Leeds would be interesting!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So we have a thread asking for a reinstatement of a missing route link to just one small-ish coastal resort. Let us expand matters and look to the area on the Lincolnshire coast between Cleethorpes and Skegness where another similar "fantasy" route reinstatement could aid no less than FIVE small-ish coastal resorts.

I refer you to a similar timed British Rail route closure similar to to that of the discussion of this thread between Louth and Boston, on the line from Grimsby, that was formerly known as the Mablethorpe Loop Line, that would serve:-
Grimoldby
Saltfleetby
Theddlethorpe All Saints
Mablethorpe
Sutton-on-Sea

Posting made "tongue-in-cheek", whilst restraining laughter..

 

[kylemore]

Being one of the more elderly of the forum membership, it still came as a shock to me that Pickering railway station, one that I had used many times in my early youthful days, will see the 8th March to come as no less than the 48th anniversary of its closure by British Rail. It makes me feel my age..

I know how you feel!

I think the big Divider now is between those who can remember travelling on British Steam Trains when they were part of the grubby UK "furniture" rather than polished museum pieces!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I know how you feel! I think the big Divider now is between those who can remember travelling on British Steam Trains when they were part of the grubby UK "furniture" rather than polished museum pieces!

Strange to relate that it was only this afternoon when I was looking at a photograph that I had taken in 1957 of a very grimy and sorry-looking former Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway 0-6-0T Aspinall Class 27 locomotive, then carrying the British Railways number of 52389, that was forlornly awaiting banking duties at Manchester Victoria station. I don't think that it was all that far off the end of its working life.

At least you and I carry such memories that the younger forum members can only dream about.

 

[lancastrian]

Strange to relate that it was only this afternoon when I was looking at a photograph that I had taken in 1957 of a very grimy and sorry-looking former Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway 0-6-0T Aspinall Class 27 locomotive, then carrying the British Railways number of 52389, that was forlornly awaiting banking duties at Manchester Victoria station. I don't think that it was all that far off the end of its working life.

At least you and I carry such memories that the younger forum members can only dream about.

So true Paul. Although I was still only 15 at the end of steam, but living only half a mile from Lostock hall Shed meant that I was there until the end, plus a couple of weeks afterwards while a couple were kept in steam, to assist if a diesel failed coming over Copypit. Which I believe did happen a few times.

But I do remember with a couple of mates from school travelling around the north of England train-spotting from 11 to 15 while steam was still around. Preston station was our great 'Mecca' for seeing steam until the end. Good memories, but we are the last generation who will have them.

 

[kylemore]

At least you and I carry such memories that the younger forum members can only dream about.

My memories confined to childhood ones of the last few years of steam on the Clyde Coast Lines coupled with memories of sailing on the BR/CSP Turbine and Paddle Steamers in their last 1960s fling!

 

[JohnCarlson]

So true Paul. Although I was still only 15 at the end of steam, but living only half a mile from Lostock hall Shed meant that I was there until the end, plus a couple of weeks afterwards while a couple were kept in steam, to assist if a diesel failed coming over Copypit. Which I believe did happen a few times.

But I do remember with a couple of mates from school travelling around the north of England train-spotting from 11 to 15 while steam was still around. Preston station was our great 'Mecca' for seeing steam until the end. Good memories, but we are the last generation who will have them.

Not quite on topic here but I have been struck that the museum tramway at Beamish has been operating now for longer than many of the tramways in the Tyneside area ans there is a growing list of tramcars and I presume locos that have worked longer in preservation than before it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A bus is not a train in the same way that being pushed along in a handcart is not a taxi.

For this gem, I hereby award you the title of the writer of the most amusing simile clarification in 2012...

 

[yorksrob]

So we have a thread asking for a reinstatement of a missing route link to just one small-ish coastal resort. Let us expand matters and look to the area on the Lincolnshire coast between Cleethorpes and Skegness where another similar "fantasy" route reinstatement could aid no less than FIVE small-ish coastal resorts.

I refer you to a similar timed British Rail route closure similar to to that of the discussion of this thread between Louth and Boston, on the line from Grimsby, that was formerly known as the Mablethorpe Loop Line, that would serve:-
Grimoldby
Saltfleetby
Theddlethorpe All Saints
Mablethorpe
Sutton-on-Sea

Posting made "tongue-in-cheek", whilst restraining laughter..

You may be restraining your laughter, but wouldn't the Lincolnshire coast route have had a better chance of survival if it had taken in the Mablethorpe loop as part of a basic railway, rather then the more direct line ?