Can you help me resolve a dispute over excessing a ticket

[MrJamesBrown]

Hello
If I have a y-p ticket from Cardiff Queen Street to Aber.
On the return leg I decide to go to Fairwater.
Is it a legitimate course of action to be able to excess the return portion to Fairwater?

As a guard on my train earlier explicitly stated earlier to me that this wasn't the case, and would have to pay the £1.40 fare from Cardiff Queen Street to Fairwater

Also if this is the case, where does it say that this is acceptable

Thanks James

 

[yorkie]

You wanted to excess the RTN portion of a Cardiff to Aber return ticket to Fairwater? (ie, Aber to Cardiff RTN to become Aber to Fairwater RTN )

I can't see any problem with that; it's a straightforward overdistance excess, costing £0.00

Some staff claim that once you reach your final destination it cannot be excessed. While I can't find that documented, it is difficult to argue against but providing you asked before reaching Cardiff I cannot see why they would refuse.

However some staff do not like issuing zero excesses (do a search on this forum for previous topics) and will give any excuse not to do them. Most passengers will be fobbed off easily and will not go to a forum like this one and find out they were overcharged, so most of the time they get away with it. And also they will assume people won't bother about a fare like £1.40.

Sorry you experienced this. It's inexcusable but all too common, and it honestly does not surprise me at all.

 

[MrJamesBrown]

You wanted to excess the RTN portion of a Cardiff to Aber return ticket to Fairwater? (ie, Aber to Cardiff RTN to become Aber to Fairwater RTN )

I can't see any problem with that; it's a straightforward overdistance excess, costing £0.00

Some staff claim that once you reach your final destination it cannot be excessed. While I can't find that documented, it is difficult to argue against but providing you asked before reaching Cardiff I cannot see why they would refuse.

However some staff do not like issuing zero excesses (do a search on this forum for previous topics) and will give any excuse not to do them. Most passengers will be fobbed off easily and will not go to a forum like this one and find out they were overcharged, so most of the time they get away with it. And also they will assume people won't bother about a fare like £1.40.

Sorry you experienced this. It's inexcusable but all too common, and it honestly does not surprise me at all.

Thanks Yorkie. That is exactly what I wanted to do.

+ I asked the conductor as soon as I boarded the train, who promptly informed me that I was 'trying to cheat the system' and that 'I was trying to get somthing for free when I wasn't entitled to it.'
I also informed him that 'I have done it in the past, where there wasn't a problem.' The response to this was 'two wrongs do not make a right'

IMO from reading topics on this matter in the past, he was just trying to avoid doing the paper work

 

[yorkie]

Do you often make the journey from Cardiff and find that sometimes you wish to return to Fairwater? If so my advice is to always ask for the ticket to be issued from Fairwater. That way, if you do decide to return there, you have no hassles. If you do not, you've not wasted any money as the fare is the same.

The ticket office at Cardiff Queen St / Central is obliged to sell a ticket from whatever station you ask for. If they refuse, they are in breach of the rules of impartial retailing. In which case, contact the company threatening to report them to the ORR and also submitting a complaint to Passenger Focus if this is not resolved.

 

[MrJamesBrown]

Do you often make the journey from Cardiff and find that sometimes you wish to return to Fairwater? If so my advice is to always ask for the ticket to be issued from Fairwater. That way, if you do decide to return there, you have no hassles. If you do not, you've not wasted any money as the fare is the same.

The ticket office at Cardiff Queen St / Central is obliged to sell a ticket from whatever station you ask for. If they refuse, they are in breach of the rules of impartial retailing. In which case, contact the company threatening to report them to the ORR and also submitting a complaint to Passenger Focus if this is not resolved.

I usually catch the train from Fairwater. However I missed the train today, so I caught the bus into Cardiff, and bought the return only to Queen Street as I was going to go to a pub in the city center. Then I had the change of plans. If this makes any sense.

 

[yorkie]

Yep, I see. But in future if you think there is any chance of wanting to return to Fairwater, I would recommend asking for the ticket to be issued from Fairwater to save potential hassle later.

Of course you should not have to do this as I believe you are entitled to the excess.

 

[MrJamesBrown]

Once again thanks + serves me right for missing the train
+ the guard also mentioned that on my original ticket BOJ's were not valid for example to go from Heath High Level to Heath Low Level. If my knowledge is correct then the Heath stations are grouped together so then can be used as an interchange. Is that correct?
Thanks in advance
James

 

[yorkie]

It gets worse...!

Once again thanks + serves me right for missing the train

Not at all. You did nothing wrong.

+ the guard also mentioned that on my original ticket BOJ's were not valid

This is wrong. Break of Journey is allowed on almost all 'walk on' (ie not 'Advance') tickets. The exceptions are rare, but are generally the outward portion of some (Super) Off Peak (not Day) tickets, and in very rare cases the return portions of Super Off Peak tickets. I'd write to ATW and complain about that guard!

for example to go from Heath High Level to Heath Low Level. If my knowledge is correct then the Heath stations are grouped together so then can be used as an interchange. Is that correct?
Thanks in advance
James

That is correct. It is not even a break of journey!!

....you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonablycomplete your journey within one day, or(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff.

Examples that are NOT a break of journey include:

- Having a meal at JD Wetherspoon pub in Leeds station
- Walking from Birmingham Moor St / Snow Hill to Birmingham New St
- Walking from Heath High Level to Heath Low Level
- Getting a bus from Hertford North to Hertford East
- Taking the tube from Waterloo to St Pancras
- Buying sandwiches from Upper Crust on the concourse at King's Cross

etc....

 

[ainsworth74]

- Having a meal at JD Wetherspoon pub in Leeds station

There is a Wetherspoons in Leeds station hock: how did I miss that?

 

[MrJamesBrown]

I said that to the guard, who got uptight. I got the impression that he was always going to be 'right' as I am a child (in his eyes) and shouldn't know anything about the rights on the railway
If I complain is it better in writing, or to ring ATW tomorrow, as I am free all day?

Once again
Thanks
James

 

[John @ home]

There is a Wetherspoons in Leeds station hock: how did I miss that?

By not turning left often enough.

 

[yorkie]

Write to them. When you have a draft letter, send me a PM for proof reading if you like. Ensure you get the date and time of the service, and make it clear what ticket you held, what your journey was, and what the guard said.

 

[MrJamesBrown]

Thanks

 

[bnm]

Nice to see the Godfather of Soul posting on the forum.

....sorry, I'll get me coat!

 

[MrJamesBrown]

If I had £1 for everytime I heard that I wouldn't catch the train

 

[yorkie]

There is a Wetherspoons in Leeds station hock: how did I miss that?

I don't think it's been there more than perhaps 7 years? I think it was installed at the time of the Leeds station modernisation. Here's a photo of the outside entrance. (you would not be allowed to take that photo on a ticket that barred break of journey though, as it is taken from the other side of the road, but you could appear in the photo. I won't comment on how enforceable that is )

Wetherspoon Leeds may chuck someone out for having soft drinks if they look like they might be Under 21 though, in their own daft version of the "think 21" policy. I guess they're on railway premises, so why not have railway rules? It's probably cheaper to "split" the drinks orders although I can't confirm that (Actually it is often cheaper to 'split' lemonade and beer/lager and combine them to make one drink as opposed to a shandy, I am unsure if this applies at Wetherspoon or not.)

Note that after the simplification of the drinks range, some drinks may be sold with a restriction that prohibits a break of drink, which is defined as pausing other than to breath, or to consume a drink from another glass, or under instructions from bar staff, or where the drink can't be reasonably consumed that night To find out if this applies to your drink or not, call a distant call centre who will be happy to assist!

 

[bnm]

Have you been drinking, yorkie?

 

[yorkie]

Just proving the point how utterly ridiculous the rules about "break of journey" are since "simplification". Of course it's not a serious comparison (more a parody), but I think it makes the point quite well.

If this was prior to September 2008 I would be able to say that "only the outward porton of Savers bar break of journey. All other tickets allow it" but ATOC deemed that situation not "simple" enough.:roll:

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't think it's been there more than perhaps 7 years?

So not that long then! I really need to pay more attention to my surroundings

Also thanks for the advice on drinks simplification and the effects this has had on break of drink rules

 

[Scotty]

I was at Leeds on Saturday, looking for a bite to eat/drink. I would have gone in there had I noticed it!

 

[MichaelAMW]

I was at Leeds on Saturday, looking for a bite to eat/drink. I would have gone in there had I noticed it!

I was there on Saturday... nice pint of Abbot!

When you come through the barriers, straight ahead is the nearest exit, with the White Rose pub on the right - rare pint of non-keg Tetley, if you like that sort of thing. However, if you turn left and walk past the booking office and through the long hall, you will find it at the end.

Personally, I turn right out of those first doors and follow the station approach road round until I reach the Leeds Brewery Tap on the left.

Michael.

 

[yorkie]

If you look like you might be under 21 they may chuck you out even if you only get soft drinks. They are not the nicest bunch of people at the Wetherspoons in Leeds! I think you'd get a much warmer welcome elsewhere. But yes if you want to go to a pub and avoid "breaking your journey" then it does the job (in theory a team of RPIs could follow you and harass you if you went elsewhere )

 

[Sapphire Blue]

I was there on Saturday... nice pint of Abbot!

When you come through the barriers, straight ahead is the nearest exit, with the White Rose pub on the right - rare pint of non-keg Tetley, if you like that sort of thing. However, if you turn left and walk past the booking office and through the long hall, you will find it at the end.

Personally, I turn right out of those first doors and follow the station approach road round until I reach the Leeds Brewery Tap on the left.

Michael.

But then you have broken your journey, whereas going to the 'Spoons is within the station area.

 

[theblackwatch]

I was at Leeds on Saturday, looking for a bite to eat/drink. I would have gone in there had I noticed it!

I wouldn't bother. Much better places nearby.

 

[Welshman]

On 26th October, Yorkie wrote "Wetherspoon Leeds may chuck someone out for having soft drinks if they look like they might be Under 21 though, in their own daft version of the "think 21" policy. I guess they're on railway premises, so why not have railway rules? It's probably cheaper to "split" the drinks orders although I can't confirm that (Actually it is often cheaper to 'split' lemonade and beer/lager and combine them to make one drink as opposed to a shandy, I am unsure if this applies at Wetherspoon or not.)"


But if you dropped your glass of beer before having chance to pour the lemonade into it, would they then be obliged to accommodate you with another beer, especially if the lemonade was made by one company and the beer brewed by another?

I wouldn't risk this late at night in case they'd called time, and you were left with just a glass of lemonade.

 

[yorkie]

But if you dropped your glass of beer before having chance to pour the lemonade into it, would they then be obliged to accommodate you with another beer, especially if the lemonade was made by one company and the beer brewed by another?

If I did it? No, of course not. If they did it, of course.

 

[Welshman]

No - If I arrived at my splitting point and the ongoing train was unavailable because of their [the ongoing TOC's] fault, I'd expect them to make further provision.
The grey area seems to be if that ongoing service was unavailable to me because of something which that ongoing TOC could be perceived to be my fault, eg, my not presenting myself on time.

 

[yorkie]

No - If I arrived at my splitting point and the ongoing train was unavailable because of their [the ongoing TOC's] fault, I'd expect them to make further provision.
The grey area seems to be if that ongoing service was unavailable to me because of something which that ongoing TOC could be perceived to be my fault, eg, my not presenting myself on time.

If you are hinting that it is the customers' fault that they are delayed on an earlier train, I have stated previously that the Railway risk a PR disaster if they attempt to blame the customer for being delayed by the Railway. I also believe that the rule stating that if you are delayed while travelling, you will be allowed to complete your journey on later trains applies.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If you are hinting that it is the customers' fault that they are delayed on an earlier train, I have stated previously that the Railway risk a PR disaster if they attempt to blame the customer for being delayed by the Railway. I also believe that the rule stating that if you are delayed while travelling, you will be allowed to complete your journey on later trains applies.

I'm interested to understand where you draw the line around this collective responsibility to convey the passenger.

I think you are proposing that the mainline rail TOCs have the responsibility if the passenger is delayed by another mainline TOC (incl MerseyRail, London Overground, Glasgow suburban electrics), but not if delayed by a local "metro" (such as LU, T&W Metro, Glasgow Subway). Its hard to understand why the line is drawn there.

We're more accustomed to having responsibility assigned to legal identities, ie Companies. For example, if a passenger arriving late for a First Group train had been delayed by a First Group bus, then the responsibility to convey the passenger would be honoured, but if delayed by another company's bus then there would be no continuing responsibility.

Can you elaborate on why the responsibility is confined to the mainline TOCs and is shared between them, but doesn't extend to "metro" rail delays and why it doesn't include the same company's delays when connecting from other modes of transport?

[PS This is not a question about the NCoC. The provision in the CoC defines some responsibility between TOCs but it doesn't relieve them from responsibilities from delays on "Metros" nor, more importantly, from responsibilities they incur when conveying but delaying passengers on other modes they operate.]

 

[yorkie]

If I was on PlusBus I would expect the bus journey to be covered in the event of delays. A journey by LU would also surely be fine if the ticket was from somewhere like U1, or a Travelcard, or similar. I do not think the mode matters, it is the ticketing that matters surely?

If I was on a non-railway ticket product then I would hope that common sense would prevail, and this did happen to me once when a bus was very badly delayed, I think the York races were on earlier and I therefore had to wait approx 1 hour for a bus (it would have been quicker to walk). However is there a contractual right to demand that the railway ticket(s) should be honoured on later trains due to a delay on a different mode of transport that was taken with non-railway ticketing? I would love to say "yes" but sadly I can find nothing that indicates that is the case. But should it be? Of course it should!

I do not think that TOCs can get away with saying "that train is run by a different company", if they are a member of RSP they are required to honour all tickets that are of relevant route on their services in accordance with the conditions. These "but Northern adhered to their part of the contract by eventually getting you to the place stated on the first ticket, and Virgin are not obliged to honour your ticket because Northern caused the delay" excuses that I've seen on here before are nonsense IMO.

Once you start your journey on a rail ticket (this could start with a bus, tube, etc) I firmly believe that the rule that "if you are delayed while travelling..." applies and the only logical interpretation is that it overrules the rules that you can only get the booked train(s). I believe this must, surely, apply regardless of the mode on which the delay is experienced.

Grey areas may be: Combining tickets to London Terminals, where the tickets do not join at the same London Terminal (does the fact the named station grouping is the same, mean that it does count as covering your entire journey under Condition 19? I'd hope so!), combining PlusBus tickets on different routes (e.g. York - Radlett Plusbus, Watford Plusbus - Rugby); the plusbus areas overlap and both include Aldenham). I would say these should be fine, but I could see some staff arguing otherwise.