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Car driver and passenger drown under Liverpool Railway Road Bridge

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twpsaesneg

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It does seem fairly ridiculous that a telemetry linked sign is not in place each side. We have had them for years on at least two main roads which are liable to flooding in the Cambridgeshire Fens.

Google Maps Link to sign location

flooding sign.JPG
These light up when flooding is detected with a Hazard warning symbol, approximate depth in both inches and metres, and flashing lights. They also have a link to the council highways / environment agency to notify them and they then arrange for a highways team to come and close off permanently installed gates across the road to close it to traffic. These are locked open when not required and locked across when they are.

If it can be done in a rural area with power supply challenges it beggars belief that it can't be installed in a major city!

Edited to add a photo of one of the signs in action!
 

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jon0844

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So the technology exists! In which case the highways authority should be in big trouble for not implementing such warning systems.

Sure, people could ignore the warnings but then that's on them.
 

andypops

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There is a huge amount of ill informed fantasy on these four pages. It might be useful to share something called the ALARP principle, which is very widespread in the field of U.K. Health and Safety management.

This principle states that the risk of hazards should be reduced to a level which is As Low As Reasonably Practicable. Hazards cannot normally be eliminated without significant structural / procedural changes - eg closing this road. So the hazards should be reduced to the lowest *reasonable* level.

For anyone interested, the HSE gives a very good explanation of ALARP at the following page:

The key question is around reasonableness - what actions would be considered enough to reduce the risk of a hazard to a level ALARP, without being grossly disproportionate to the risk?

To help with this assessment, the HSE helpfully publish sample calculations and costs for key injury types (fatalities, major, minor etc), to allow a cost-benefit analysis to be completed. Of particular note, one of the fully-worked examples considers the cost of implementing a control measure at a chemical factory to remove the risk of an explosion, which has the potential to kill 20 people, give 40 life-changing injuries, severely injure 100 and give minor injuries to 200 people. Think of an event something like ten times worse than the Buncefield oil terminal fire.

In the example, the incident is assessed to have a risk of occurring once in 100,000 years, and the lifetime of the plant is 25 years. Using the HSE’s estimation of costs, the “benefit” of removing this risk is about £9.5k (at 2003 prices - adjusting for inflation that’s about £14.5k today). Adding in a 10x margin of error to cover the “grossly disproportionate” definition of “reasonably practicable”, it brings us to a cost of £145 k. In other words, if the cost of the control measure to remove this hazard is higher than £145k, it would be viewed in these circumstances to be unnecessary.

The full link to this calculation is below if anyone wants to read in more detail than my summary:

I’ll be honest, I nearly fell off my chair the first time I saw this approach to costing health and safety. Our culture is so risk averse, and happy to throw money at problems (look at the costs we pay for medicines…) yet this calculation apparently puts so little cost on so much injury and pain. I found it truly staggering.

But after some time considering it, I realised that the biggest weighting on the cost was because of the vanishingly small likelihood of the event happening in the first place. That’s the key to all of this.

People are generally bad at dispassionately assessing the likelihood of an event, so often this can be overstated by several orders of magnitude. The whole reason for using the HSE’s calculation is that it balances the need for safety with pragmatism, and means we don’t all have to walk around Tescos wearing high-vis vests on top of astronaut suits and knee pads. We need to be realistic about the likelihood of risks - for instance, how often has an event happened, and how many similar situations are there (eg there are lots of oil terminals, but they blow up very rarely indeed).

It wouldn’t be wise to comment on the CBA or assessment of the hazard for this incident, especially in light of the ongoing coroner’s investigations. But I thought it might be helpful to explain this principle for anyone advocating blindly throwing money at attempts to remove a hazard.
 
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Dan G

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That's a great post @andypops .

You probably already know this but the "worked example" is a reference to the Flixborough disaster.
 

Lucan

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It might be useful to share something called the ALARP principle
Well summarised, I once worked in that field myself and did those calculations in an industrial context. It is ridiculous that some people insist that a risk should be reduced to absolute zero (as if that were possible anyway) because "human life is priceless". Demanding zero emmissions is the most common example of this today. People can be shocked to learn that a price is put on human life in these calculations; the one I used would be out-of-date by now so I won't quote it.
A response to people who demand zero risk is that they should first rebuild their house under the ground, because meteor strikes and aircraft crashes are quite significant probabilities when you get down to the levels of risks from industrial plant.
There is a huge amount of ill informed fantasy on these four pages.
Maybe, but as when the mods sometimes warn posters not to speculate about an accident being reported, don't worry, no coroner or HSE inspector is going to consult or be influenced by the comments on this forum for their conclusions.
 
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John Luxton

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Well summarised, I once worked in that field myself and did those calculations in an industrial context. It is ridiculous that some people insist that a risk should be reduced to absolute zero (as if that were possible anyway) because "human life is priceless".
The main issue here is that there has been a known flooding risk at this particular location for many years. Locals know about it, though odd it was local people who were caught out. Other locations warrant "Road Liable to Flooding Signs" yet despite this problem having occurred since the 1960s it is strange that just two road signs, one each side of the bridge, have not been erected.

I don't think anyone on this forum going from comments on various other posts are concerned would want us to live in a "cotton wool" fantasy world. Some already think this had happened mind as we can't put out heads out of train windows any more!
 

modernrail

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The ‘ I know a lot about health and safety brigade’ are out in force being staggered by the views of those that are a bit surprised that Liverpool CC didn’t put up a few signs aren’t they! Also managing to misrepresent the views of those posters to say that they are suggesting the risk should be reduced to zero. Nobody is saying that.

This location - which let’s remember is on a road so busy posters are suggesting it would be chaos if it was closed, is a known flood risk with previous incidents, bad lighting, no signage, no measurement sticks. It is the total lack of any of the above being as they more helpfully might be that posters are quite rightly pointing out.

In the same vain, nobody here would be expecting NR to be sit on its backside with the obviously increased risk of landslips on the railway in recent times. They are not - monitoring has gone in at many locations, audits carried out etc. All for very good reason because of an elevated risk caused by changing circumstances.

To answer the question fully in this case the investigation obviously needs to run its course on this particular and very tragic set of circumstances.
 

childwallblues

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The two roads cross the railway either side of Queens Drive are Rose Lane and Penny Lane (of Beatles fame). Both are narrow in parts and cannot take all the extra traffic. The situation will only get worse from next Monday if the road is not re-opened as the Liverpool College School on North Mossley Hill Road new term starts. On the same road are the University Halls of Residence whose students are also due back. And further along by Penny Lane is the large Spire Private Hospital. So chaos is expected next week.
 

Prime586

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They put a pump system under the Kirkby line near to Aintree. The road flooded there frequently to a depth too deep for cars. Council eventually put a sump and pump system in (different council though).
Yes, that is just down the road from me, where the Kirkby line crosses Aintree Lane/Wango Lane on an embankment alongside the Leeds-Liverpool canal embankment. In this case the road wasn't dug out to get under the railway bridges (there are 3 bridges in parallel, one for the running line and two redundant spans from the old carriage sidings and maintenance depot). it's just that Aintree Lane runs naturally downhill towards the canal embankment where it crosses via a swing bridge.
Street View

The road under the railway bridges always flooded in heavy rain as the canal embankment forms a dam to the runoff coming down the road, and the area is in a geographical low point, so in 2011 Sefton Council installed kerbstones with integrated gullies along both sides of the road betweem the canal embankment and the junction with Sherwood's Lane (some of which are now covered over by vegetation). However, the road still floods in heavy rain, including the night before the incident on Queen's Drive which also flooded the M57 at Switch Island (north Liverpool got the rain overnight on the Friday, then south Liverpool got it on the Saturday). Before anyone points it out, there are no signs there either.

United Utilities had an existing emergency pumping station on Sherwood's Lane for storm drain and sewer overflow in the event of flooding (it discharges into the River Alt, in the 'no man's land' between the railway and canal embankments further north) so I expect the new gullies were connected to that. It doesn't appear to have helped much though.
 

al78

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The death of 2 people is a pretty good place to draw a line surely. If the reality is more flash flooding, more regularly with deeper flooding then we need systems and approaches to deal with that. Yes that means much more warning in driving tests but other awareness raising including at the site. The dip at this site is particularly big, so it does feel like it needs a better on-site solution.

It surely comes down to individual situations. The question to be asked is, can a good driver (i.e. driving at a speed appropriate for the conditions and engaging in good observation) identify the hazard in time and take evasive action?

If the answer is yes, incidents at the location are primarily or entirely due to careless driving, and sometimes the perpetrators of carelessness are also the victims, which is why being careless is bad and should be avoided.

If the answer is no (i.e. there is a reasonable possibility that the hazard could not be seen or anticipated in some circumstances until it is too late), then liability lies on whoever is responsible for the road.
 

Meerkat

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Two linked risks here.
Sure the site is quite likely to flood. But even assuming it has flooded what is the risk of death? Think how many flooded cars On roads you have seen, how many people wading away or sitting on top - deaths are very rare except when a car gets swept away down river.
I'm assuming the couple followed natural instinct to try to keep the water out, and kept doing that until too late* - AIUI even if electric windows haven’t shorted the sideways pressure soon creates too much friction for the window to function, and breaking a car window is rather hard (see plod taking a few goes with a baton to do it on arrest films).
I must check where my window breaker/seatbelt cutter is in my car……..everyone driver should have one to hand in their car.

* on a similar vein however wrong it feels apparently sealing your house against a flood has to be abandoned at a certain water level or the water pressure will knacker the structure and it’s demolition time.
 

RikGarner

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Worth pointing out that the bridge under the WCML at Crossley Road between Stockport and Manchester has a recurring flooding problem. Stockport council recently put up warning signs up that are triggered by any flooding. They're regularly ignored.
 

Edsmith

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Worth pointing out that the bridge under the WCML at Crossley Road between Stockport and Manchester has a recurring flooding problem. Stockport council recently put up warning signs up that are triggered by any flooding. They're regularly ignored.
I know somebody who used to live in the Stockport area and they said vehicles were often abandoned there in floodwater. It doesn't surprise that warning signs are ignored, it really needs barriers across the road.
 

M28361M

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Liverpool City Council have released an update and it looks like flood sensors and barriers are being installed. https://liverpoolexpress.co.uk/queens-drive-update/
The recent wet weather has slowed repairs of the carriageway. Whilst the existing gullies were clear and operating normally at the time of the recent flood, our contractor is continuing to upgrade the gullies to a modern design which will improve access for any future jetting and CCTV work which may be required. The gully upgrade works will continue until Friday 6 October.

We have met with a consultant to discuss installing sensors that will monitor water levels and which will notify our staff if the road is about to flood. These sensors would be linked to flashing signage on both sides of the road warning that the route is closed. We have asked that these sensors are installed as soon as possible and it is our intention that the road will not reopen until this system is operational.

Due to this work, and ongoing investigations, the road will continue to be closed for the next few weeks – we will update you as and when we can say with more certainty when it will reopen. We would like to apologise for any inconvenience and thank people for their continued patience.

In our last update, we reported concerns about the potential leak from a main. It has now been identified that the water is ground water which we expect will reduce over time.
 

John Luxton

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Liverpool City Council have released an update and it looks like flood sensors and barriers are being installed. https://liverpoolexpress.co.uk/queens-drive-update/
Good to hear that action is being taken to resolve the issue - unfortunate that it took fatalities to prompt the council into dealing with this long standing issue.

I suspect this case may well end up in court and the thought of that has prompted this action, at least they can demonstrate they have done something!
 

Meerkat

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That article doesn't mention anything about barriers, just sensors and warning lights.
True but I infer from this bit…
We have met with a consultant to discuss installing sensors that will monitor water levels and which will notify our staff if the road is about to flood.
that the notification is so that the council staff can go and lower some barriers (or just put cones out, but permanent manual barriers might be easier and less likely to go walkies/be ignored)
 
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