Card Declined for 50p.

[Hadders]

Many bank computer systems are based on legacy systems dating back to the 1970's.

A few years ago Santander went into meltdown when they integrated the acquired Alliance & Leicester accounts.

The risk is simply too great to move them.

 

[fowler9]

*sighs* it's the cards and the merchants systems; not necessarily the banks systems in the scenario you are describing. Your bank cannot read your mind or your merchants mind.

And offline authorisation isn't dying out (only where wifi/3g signals can fill the gap for card terminals in remote locations and on the move). It's alive and kicking for many contactless payments even where there is a permanently connected link to phone/fibre lines.

*sighs* So the shop down the road gets a brand new till system which the bank presumably lets them use and they let them use my completely online and contactless payment card to buy stuff with no problem. A day later I withdraw money at a bank counter. A day later the bank that gave me money over the counter try and charge me for going overdrawn and then back down and don't bother after I ask what they are trying to do. When you sigh do you think it was me that was in the wrong or the bank that decided not to charge me and admitted they were wrong?
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If the contactless payment terminal had to check with the bank, it'd be much slower and defeat the point of contactless, which is to make payments quicker and easier, and encourage card use for low value transactions.

If that is how contactless terminals work why do any retailers use them. I'll just hand over some magic beans and assure the shop owner I have the cash. Not saying you aren't correct of course, nothing would amaze me any more.

 

[maniacmartin]

Technically you were in the wrong. You should have kept track of what you were spending. It's probably mentioned in the small T&Cs of your account.

Retailers use them because the bank will only issue contactless cards to those who are not considered a credit risk.

 

[fowler9]

Technically you were in the wrong. You should have kept track of what you were spending. It's probably mentioned in the small T&Cs of your account

Probably true. But the bank take my money for what purpose? It obviously isn't insurance because they don't know where it is either. As I have said before how many times would you fly with an airline which didn't know where its planes were
of a weekend and just told you that you gave them your money so why didn't you check? If I ask the bank I gave my money to how much I have left I expect them to know, not to get a rough idea.
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If you catch a train do you want to know the fare up front or do you get an estimate, take the train and then have them tell you afterwards how much it will actually cost?

 

[Abpj17]

*sighs* So the shop down the road gets a brand new till system which the bank presumably lets them use and they let them use my completely online and contactless payment card to buy stuff with no problem. A day later I withdraw money at a bank counter. A day later the bank that gave me money over the counter try and charge me for going overdrawn and then back down and don't bother after I ask what they are trying to do. When you sigh do you think it was me that was in the wrong or the bank that decided not to charge me and admitted they were wrong?
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If that is how contactless terminals work why do any retailers use them. I'll just hand over some magic beans and assure the shop owner I have the cash. Not saying you aren't correct of course, nothing would amaze me any more.

No. 'Till' (merchant acquiring systems) are increasingly not provided by the banks. For example, World Pay is a big merchant acquirer but was sold by RBSG some time ago. As I said, your bank cannot know what offline transactions merchants have undertaken until that data is handed over to them.

And because the speed of the transaction means retailers can 'process' more customers, employ less till staff etc. For low value transactions, it's often an acceptable risk.

The balance your bank gives you represents what they know at the time. The banks with the better IT systems will update this for ATM transactions within a minute. But they can't update with merchant data they've not been given yet. Nor can they know what cheques you have written, for example, until someone else pays it in and their bank and your friend's bank gives the cheque to your bank.

The bank will take your money off you as soon as they are aware you've made a transaction for cheques and offline card transactions and almost any transaction overseas, this can take a day or more to trickle through.

 

[richw]

Fowler9 your examples are the second reason I always carry cash, as I've noticed it normally takes 2-3 days for small transactions to show on my bank and I prefer to know where I am.

 

[fowler9]

No. 'Till' (merchant acquiring systems) are increasingly not provided by the banks. For example, World Pay is a big merchant acquirer but was sold by RBSG some time ago. As I said, your bank cannot know what offline transactions merchants have undertaken until that data is handed over to them.

And because the speed of the transaction means retailers can 'process' more customers, employ less till staff etc. For low value transactions, it's often an acceptable risk.

The balance your bank gives you represents what they know at the time. The banks with the better IT systems will update this for ATM transactions within a minute. But they can't update with merchant data they've not been given yet. Nor can they know what cheques you have written, for example, until someone else pays it in and their bank and your friend's bank gives the cheque to your bank.

The bank will take your money off you as soon as they are aware you've made a transaction for cheques and offline card transactions and almost any transaction overseas, this can take a day or more to trickle through.

I understand but I am not saying the bank provides them, just that the bank allows their products to be used with them. I'm not having a go or anything but I can see no possible justification for a bank giving you a contactless payment card which is completely valid online or offline, letting you use it, personally giving you the balance of the account at a later date and then charging you for being overdrawn when they gave you the money that made you overdrawn at a branch.
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Fowler9 your examples are the second reason I always carry cash, as I've noticed it normally takes 2-3 days for small transactions to show on my bank and I prefer to know where I am.

I agree, well of course. The bank let me spend money on a validated card which works offline as well, gave me more money from a branch and then agreed it was a bit daft they tried to charge me for something they had allowed me to do.

 

[fusionblue]

I've never had a card transaction declined - in fact i have a scan of a receipt of a transaction of 4p.

 

[dcsprior]

*sighs* So the shop down the road gets a brand new till system which the bank presumably lets them use and they let them use my completely online and contactless payment card to buy stuff with no problem. A day later I withdraw money at a bank counter. A day later the bank that gave me money over the counter try and charge me for going overdrawn and then back down and don't bother after I ask what they are trying to do. When you sigh do you think it was me that was in the wrong or the bank that decided not to charge me and admitted they were wrong?

What do you mean by the phrase I've bolded above? Do you mean you have a card which supports contactless transactions, but not offline authorisation? If these exists, they must be very rare.

The majority of EFT cards support offline authorisation. One of the benefits of this is that it allows those who sell products and services somewhere where it is not practical to make a data connection (including on some railway lines, and aeroplanes) to still accept cards.

For transactions which do go online for authorisation, the bank will generally decrease the customer's available balance (not their account balance) at that point.

 

[fowler9]

What do you mean by the phrase I've bolded above? Do you mean you have a card which supports contactless transactions, but not offline authorisation? If these exists, they must be very rare.

The majority of EFT cards support offline authorisation. One of the benefits of this is that it allows those who sell products and services somewhere where it is not practical to make a data connection (including on some railway lines, and aeroplanes) to still accept cards.

For transactions which did go online for authorisation, the bank will generally decrease the customer's available balance (not their account balance) at that point.

Sorry mate, terrible use of the English language by myself. I meant that the card can be used contactless and also works offline. Changed my mind mid sentence about what I was going to type and it made it a bit of a mess.I edited at a later point which you must have missed.
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I've never had a card transaction declined - in fact i have a scan of a receipt of a transaction of 4p.

Ha ha, I once withdrew a similar amount over a counter to buy a train ticket.

 

[Busaholic]

I am the Queen - what is cash exactly?

 

[kieron]

I am the Queen - what is cash exactly?

It's the thing which makes all those Maundy purses so heavy, ma'am.

I've had a debit card declined once when in a shop which doesn't accept credit cards (owing to a large online transaction the previous day). I tend to carry at least £10 around with me now.

 

[Abpj17]

I understand but I am not saying the bank provides them, just that the bank allows their products to be used with them. I'm not having a go or anything but I can see no possible justification for a bank giving you a contactless payment card which is completely valid online or offline, letting you use it, personally giving you the balance of the account at a later date and then charging you for being overdrawn when they gave you the money that made you overdrawn at a branch.

I guess it boils down to whether you think your bank should have complete responsibility for knowing what you have done or whether you have some responsibility for keeping track of your spending (in the same way as people that write cheques).

 

[island]

Ironic, since we are continually being told to use cards rather than cash - as it's cheaper for businesses and banks.

Yet you never get charged a surcharge for paying cash, do you.

My local ASDA petrol station got my card locked.
> Insert card, enter PIN.
£1 pre-authorisation transaction happens.
Doesn't want to start dispensing. Tells me to start again.
> Insert card, enter PIN.
£1 pre-authorisation transaction happens.
Doesn't want to start dispensing. Tells me to start again.
> Insert card, enter PIN.
£1 pre-authorisation transaction happens.
Doesn't want to start dispensing. Tells me to start again.
> Insert card, enter PIN.
Card declined. Contact your bank.

Presumably you could have paid at the kiosk?

Now you mention Asda, I've had issues after using their online home delivery site. They pre-auth for £1, and then if you amend your order they pre-auth another £1.

Tesco's used to pre-auth the full value every time you amended the order. This once resulted in £2k of pre-auths on my Amex charge card after I amended a large order half a dozen times. The card referred for voice authorisation the next day and after some discussion they were able to figure out that most of huge pre-auths would drop off.

No I completely understood. What I would like to know is why institutions as wealthy as the banks are still using systems which apparently for days on end don't know what has happened? For a business that relies completely on money and where it is it seems silly, at the very least.

There is a substantial capital cost in updating merchant terminals, the acquiring system, and all the technology that makes card payments possible. It is not a trivial problem to resolve.

*sighs* it's the cards and the merchants systems; not necessarily the banks systems in the scenario you are describing. Your bank cannot read your mind or your merchants mind.

And offline authorisation isn't dying out (only where wifi/3g signals can fill the gap for card terminals in remote locations and on the move). It's alive and kicking for many contactless payments even where there is a permanently connected link to phone/fibre lines.

As you don't believe me for some reason

"Visa payWave transactions occur in less than a second and are generally processed ‘offline’. This means that there is no delay where the terminal attempts to obtain authorisation from the cardholder’s bank via the payments network. The payment is then cleared and settled like any other standard EMV transaction. For transactions above the contactless limit, the card continues to behave like a normal chip and PIN card."

From page 2 of https://www.deloitte.com/assets/Dco...ocuments/me_Contacless_Payment_Technology.pdf Saying you have an 'online' card doesn't make any sense or mean anything.

Actually it does, although not in the context of the post. Cards exist which will not support offline transactions.

 

[90019]

Presumably you could have paid at the kiosk?

I don't know about there, but none of the Asda petrol stations near me have a kiosk - it's card only at the pump.

 

[Deerfold]

Yet you never get charged a surcharge for paying cash, do you.

Until it was not accepted at all, you did on London Buses.

 

[carriageline]

I don't know about there, but none of the Asda petrol stations near me have a kiosk - it's card only at the pump.

That's weird, I have never seen a petrol station without a kiosk. The weirdest I have seen was an Asda with 4 pumps as you enter, and 4 individual lanes with an individual booth next to each one, so almost 'drive thru'

 

[Lockwood]

My ASDA has some 24 hour pumps which are pay at pump only, with drive through lanes open during the day as well.

This is the first unmanned station I saw
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sP4z2xJ0l14YMwC9r6ZexQQ!2e0

My next nearest ASDA has recently built a petrol station in its car park, and that is also unmanned.


Edit: And even if I could have used the kiosk, my card would still have been blocked. I'd have been in the worse situation of taking fuel without the ability to pay.

 

[Hadders]

Many Asda stores are pay at pump only with no ability to pay with anything other than a card. There is no kiosk and not even a member of staff present.

You have to insert your card first where it is authorised up to a level (£99 I think). There is no way you can drive off without paying or use a blocked card etc.

It's always quite amusing to watch someone who doesn't know how they work trying to see where they can insert cash to pay.

 

[Lockwood]

It does a preauthorisation of £1, then takes the rest out later

 

[MikeWh]

It does a preauthorisation of £1, then takes the rest out later

Not sure about Asda, but Sainsbury's definitely authorise £99. With American Express you can see all authorisations online immediately. Where a hotel or petrol station has authorised there is a note explaining that the final amount may vary.

 

[najaB]

It does a preauthorisation of £1, then takes the rest out later

While I'm not disputing that some pumps may work that way, the majority do a pre-authorisation for a large amount (e.g. £100) in order to make sure that the account has sufficient funds, and then actually put through the correct charge once you have filled up.

This is why most pre-paid card issuers advise against using them at petrol stations as they may be declined at the pre-authorisation stage, and even if they aren't it can take a few days for the amount to be unblocked.

 

[richw]

While I'm not disputing that some pumps may work that way, the majority do a pre-authorisation for a large amount (e.g. £100) in order to make sure that the account has sufficient funds, and then actually put through the correct charge once you have filled up

Asda is definitely £1 at the petrol station as is Tesco - If I find myself Skint a few days before pay day and needing fuel, I know both Asda and Tesco will both give me a full tank of Petrol on the pay at pump as long as I have at least £1 available. The full transaction normally shows up 2 days later.

 

[najaB]

Asda is definitely £1 at the petrol station as is Tesco - If I find myself Skint a few days before pay day and needing fuel, I know both Asda and Tesco will both give me a full tank of Petrol on the pay at pump as long as I have at least £1 available. The full transaction normally shows up 2 days later.

I didn't know this - I hope you never get caught out doing this since you're on shaky ground legally: taking goods that you know you don't actually have the money to pay for.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I have put my debit card in with only £1.50 in the account (until later) and I have had no problems at Asda or Tesco

 

[richw]

I didn't know this - I hope you never get caught out doing this since you're on shaky ground legally: taking goods that you know you don't actually have the money to pay for.

I have got income pending, and guaranteed income at the point of transaction. Worst case scenario if I get the timings wrong is a £12 charge from my bank, but I've been doing it for 7 years and without fail transaction is presented to bank 2 working days after transaction.

 

[najaB]

I have got income pending, and guaranteed income at the point of transaction. Worst case scenario if I get the timings wrong is a £12 charge from my bank, but I've been doing it for 7 years and without fail transaction is presented to bank 2 working days after transaction.

Oh, I wasn't saying you're doing anything morally wrong - just got to watch out for a lawyer with a bee in his bonnet.