Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?

[topydre]

Well this is Edwina Hart (the transport minister) speaking on The Wales Report last night:

Edwina Hart: "I have to say that rail in Wales is very important. We're not linked properly as a nation in Wales and I think this is a big issue for me. I would like, in an ideal world, to be able to get on the train in Swansea, go all the way round West Wales and come back down the East side."

Huw Edwards: "We'll all say Amen to that".

Edwina Hart: "But I think it's important to recognise you can take some steps on this. But, also, to take steps on this we have to be able to control the existing franchise. We need to look at what powers we need in the future. We need powers over Network Rail, because Network Rail decide what new lines come in.

"Well I've already been having discussions about the possibility of Carmarthen - Aberystwyth line reinstatement. And people say 'pie in the sky'. But I say 'no' - if you look at the way that other European countries look at the way they run rail, why shouldn't we be ambitious?

"So there's a lot of issues on the agenda. Not just the franchise - further devolution of powers. We need to have the powers the Scots are likely to get. And I think it's very important to recognise that it's about nation-building as well, in terms of the rail, not just about having a railway line and taking people back and fore to work. That is important - it's important for tourism - but it's also important that, as a nation, we have a proper rail network."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0511gf8

I realise this isn't a guarantee of funding, but the point I'm making is that the Aber-Carmarthen project is really working its way up the political agenda at a rate of knots and really swaying the public (and political) mood

 

[Bald Rick]

If Welsh, or British, politicians decide that this is a better use of taxpayers money than the many other priorities in Wales (or even West Wales) then I'm afraid it will be a sad day for democracy.

It would be a criminal waste of money, and Wales would be a poorer nation as a result.

 

[Llanigraham]

If Welsh, or British, politicians decide that this is a better use of taxpayers money than the many other priorities in Wales (or even West Wales) then I'm afraid it will be a sad day for democracy.

It would be a criminal waste of money, and Wales would be a poorer nation as a result.

Agreed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If Welsh, or British, politicians decide that this is a better use of taxpayers money than the many other priorities in Wales (or even West Wales) then I'm afraid it will be a sad day for democracy.

It would be a criminal waste of money, and Wales would be a poorer nation as a result.

How many statements are ever made by politicians in the final three months prior to a General Election on projects that would never be made half-way through the term of a Government?

 

[Greenback]

It would be a criminal waste of money, and Wales would be a poorer nation as a result.

I agree completely.

How many statements are ever made by politicians in the final three months prior to a General Election on projects that would never be made half-way through the term of a Government?

This is also correct, and I am pretty sure that no matter how quickly the reopening appears to be moving up the agenda at the moment, it will slide back down at an even faster rate of knots once the elections are over.

 

[CdBrux]

Good turn out. Plaid candidate and his agent at least use the railway and have ideas for it. Bottom line is that Plaid hope to be in position to form a loose alliance with SNP/Greens to vote to support a minority Labour administration in return for a lot of extra £ for Wales which will be spent on infrastructure projects across Wales and not M4 relief road. They said they want to look at cost of Carmarthen to Aberystwyth seriously.

known as pork barrel politics I think

 

[beargy]

Long-time lurker here on this forum, first-time poster.

As much as I would love to see this and the rest of the Traws Link Cymru campaign implemented, I think as others have already said the problem is that this would be linking southwestern Wales with a relatively low population, via Aberystwyth, with northwestern Wales also with a relatively low population. From the New Adlestrop railway atlas it looks like the original Carmarthen-Aberystwyth route was anything but direct anyway.

I think there are actually two separate issues here - one of giving towns like Lampeter and Caernarfon better public transport links, and the other of having to go via Herefordshire and Shropshire to get from one end of Wales to the other (which I admit is annoying on the odd occasion I've had to wait for a hour at Shrewsbury on a cold, dark winter's evening for the last train back to Cardiff).

To improve transport links in rural areas, has the idea been considered of using modern tram-train/light rail technology used in Germany (which had previously been mentioned as a possibility as part of the southeastern Wales metro project in and around Cardiff and the valleys) to run over the existing line from Swansea as far as Carmarthen, and then over new tram tracks on existing roads north of Carmarthen to Lampeter (and possibly eventually all the way to Aberystwyth)? Maybe something simliar could also be done south of Bangor to Caernarfon, and possibly even north of Merthyr to Brecon.

As for a direct link from one end of Wales to the other, maybe if the Irish Sea rail tunnel is ever built (been mentioned sporadically for about a century I think) between Holyhead and Dublin there would be a case for a Bristol to Belfast high-speed railway megaproject via Cardiff, Holyhead and Dublin )

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for a direct link from one end of Wales to the other, maybe if the Irish Sea rail tunnel is ever built (been mentioned sporadically for about a century I think) between Holyhead and Dublin there would be a case for a Bristol to Belfast high-speed railway megaproject via Cardiff, Holyhead and Dublin )

Please do not go down the line of that particular project. There is enough angst about the subject of this thread without adding matters such as that to the discussion.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

All good stuff - pork barrel politics and all that - but projects are justified on a business case (economic and non economic factors factored in)

Assuming of course there is a stash of ready money in Cardiff - or elsewhere.

I somehow do not think there are people sleeping on piles of money (under matresses) waiting to fund the "Great Carmarthen - Lampeter - Aberystwyth railway company inc") - for a 5% annual return.

SO - if there is a BCR - money and so on (+ no newts) - I very much look forward to a trip on the reconstructed line ....

 

[Gareth Marston]

All good stuff - pork barrel politics and all that - but projects are justified on a business case (economic and non economic factors factored in)

Assuming of course there is a stash of ready money in Cardiff - or elsewhere.

I somehow do not think there are people sleeping on piles of money (under matresses) waiting to fund the "Great Carmarthen - Lampeter - Aberystwyth railway company inc") - for a 5% annual return.

SO - if there is a BCR - money and so on (+ no newts) - I very much look forward to a trip on the reconstructed line ....

Realistically looking at Wales and the Borders as a whole the worst passenger closure was Deeside Junction to Chester Northgate. Not only did this line have in 1961 a viable 10,000 plus users per week but development since the 60's has substantially expanded the village of Blacon into a large suburb of Chester and the land near RAF Sealand has been developed into a huge business park employing thosounds.
The southern end of the Central Wales line between Pontarddulais and Swansea Victoria would now be a busy commuter line and serve Gorsenion a town of near 20,000 population.
Pontypool has a population of 30,000 but no one railheads from Pontypool Road, the old line served the residential areas of Newtown Cwmbran much better than the mainline.
Closing Oswestry lost BR money it was a high earning station with more ticket sales than Aberystwyth but the populace do not railhead via Gobowen in anywhere near the same numbers.
Caernarfon is the no brainer in terms of re opening.
Mold with its 10k population just needs 3 miles of track to get back on the network and will generate more traffic than Lampeter.

 

[beargy]

Please do not go down the line of that particular project. There is enough angst about the subject of this thread without adding matters such as that to the discussion.

Apologies, was just being a bit flippant there with that comment Any thoughts about tram-trains for rural areas though? (I'm not sure what maximum gradient they can handle and I can't remember well enough what the roads are like between Carmarthen and Lampeter though for example, so that could be a restriction.)

 

[Gareth Marston]

Apologies, was just being a bit flippant there with that comment Any thoughts about tram-trains for rural areas though? (I'm not sure what maximum gradient they can handle and I can't remember well enough what the roads are like between Carmarthen and Lampeter though for example, so that could be a restriction.)

In terms of re opening you still have to rebuild the route before worrying about what you run on it and that's where you need loads of money. The rolling stock is rather irrelevant if you can't afford to build the line in the first place.

 

[Gareth_inBlyth]

Realistically looking at Wales and the Borders as a whole the worst passenger closure was Deeside Junction to Chester Northgate. Not only did this line have in 1961 a viable 10,000 plus users per week but development since the 60's has substantially expanded the village of Blacon into a large suburb of Chester and the land near RAF Sealand has been developed into a huge business park employing thosounds.
The southern end of the Central Wales line between Pontarddulais and Swansea Victoria would now be a busy commuter line and serve Gorsenion a town of near 20,000 population.
Pontypool has a population of 30,000 but no one railheads from Pontypool Road, the old line served the residential areas of Newtown Cwmbran much better than the mainline.
Closing Oswestry lost BR money it was a high earning station with more ticket sales than Aberystwyth but the populace do not railhead via Gobowen in anywhere near the same numbers.
Caernarfon is the no brainer in terms of re opening.
Mold with its 10k population just needs 3 miles of track to get back on the network and will generate more traffic than Lampeter.

The old line through Cwmbran served the old villages well, but would you really get a modern railway offering halts at Llantarnam, Cwmbran and Pontnewydd? A light rail service, of course, but that wasn't even thought about when they decided to build Cwmbran drive.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Apologies, was just being a bit flippant there with that comment Any thoughts about tram-trains for rural areas though? (I'm not sure what maximum gradient they can handle and I can't remember well enough what the roads are like between Carmarthen and Lampeter though for example, so that could be a restriction.)

Put it this way - the "tram train" experiment in South Yorkshire is proving a total albatross (needless in any case) - costs way too high. Only taxpayers money after all.

Ask how you can pay for the infrastructure - then the rolling stock - before launching off into "cheap" tram train speculation. (which aint cheap !)

The topography n that part of Wales is "typical" rolling hills , river valleys , barren upland above 1000 ft and a fine glaciated coastal plateau from Aberaeron to Aberystwyth. In other words not great railway territory - and the roads are "unreconstructed" A roads - not fast - but fit for purpose unless you get aught behind a tractor or a caravan.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Put it this way - the "tram train" experiment in South Yorkshire is proving a total albatross (needless in any case) - costs way too high. Only taxpayers money after all.

Ask how you can pay for the infrastructure - then the rolling stock - before launching off into "cheap" tram train speculation. (which aint cheap !)

The topography n that part of Wales is "typical" rolling hills , river valleys , barren upland above 1000 ft and a fine glaciated coastal plateau from Aberaeron to Aberystwyth. In other words not great railway territory - and the roads are "unreconstructed" A roads - not fast - but fit for purpose unless you get aught behind a tractor or a caravan.

Lots of different roads all the same that come across somewhere called Cross Inn that you never see again but somewhere similar is called Cross Inn next time you get lost.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Lots of different roads all the same that come across somewhere called Cross Inn that you never see again but somewhere similar is called Cross Inn next time you get lost.

The cunning short cut via Cross Inn ! - not done for many years !

Another short cut was off the A40 via Talley - towards Lampeter ...a very slow road but very scenic.

As said before - demand is really very low for these journeys. Your previous comments on "wrong closures" - are , as ever , pragmatic and balanced.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The old line through Cwmbran served the old villages well, but would you really get a modern railway offering halts at Llantarnam, Cwmbran and Pontnewydd? A light rail service, of course, but that wasn't even thought about when they decided to build Cwmbran drive.

Torfaen is a prime example of how building roads does not bring economic prosperity, when the last freight train ran down from Blaenavon it was said the bulldozers were in position to start building the roads that were to magically transform the area. Despite being a few miles from the M4 and linked by dual carriageways it's a very poor area to this day. The trackbed around Pontypool is obliterated by roads.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The cunning short cut via Cross Inn ! - not done for many years !

Another short cut was off the A40 via Talley - towards Lampeter ...a very slow road but very scenic.

As said before - demand is really very low for these journeys. Your previous comments on "wrong closures" - are , as ever , pragmatic and balanced.

There's no coastal plain on the Ceredigion coast, the railways had to come inland and follow fairly narrow twisty river valleys. Another disadvantage of the original line between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen was that it was never built as such.it was the Manchester and Milford Railway they got to Tregaron inland about to drive through the mountains to get to the Wye valley when the scheme was abandoned and a line into Aberystwyth decided on.

 

[Gareth_inBlyth]

Torfaen is a prime example of how building roads does not bring economic prosperity, when the last freight train ran down from Blaenavon it was said the bulldozers were in position to start building the roads that were to magically transform the area. Despite being a few miles from the M4 and linked by dual carriageways it's a very poor area to this day. The trackbed around Pontypool is obliterated by roads.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There's no coastal plain on the Ceredigion coast, the railways had to come inland and follow fairly narrow twisty river valleys. Another disadvantage of the original line between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen was that it was never built as such.it was the Manchester and Milford Railway they got to Tregaron inland about to drive through the mountains to get to the Wye valley when the scheme was abandoned and a line into Aberystwyth decided on.

The dual carriageways up and down the Eastern Valley post date the railways by at least two decades. When I started commuting from Pontnewydd to Pontypool by bus in the late 70s the rail bed and bridges were still in place - so the bus went under a rail bridge at Pontrhydyrun which was the scene of a horrible bus crash in the 80s - similarly if I went to the match at Newport the bus weaved under a bridges at Cwmbran that was complicated by the proximity of the canal. If there was some wicked masterplan, it took two decades or more, because the trains stopped in the sixties, but the trackbed was there well into the 80s.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There's no coastal plain on the Ceredigion coast, the railways had to come inland and follow fairly narrow twisty river valleys. Another disadvantage of the original line between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen was that it was never built as such.it was the Manchester and Milford Railway they got to Tregaron inland about to drive through the mountains to get to the Wye valley when the scheme was abandoned and a line into Aberystwyth decided on.[/QUOTE]

I hate to disagree - but maybe not a "coastal plain" - but a geographical term that escapes me now (been a long , hard work week) - wave cut platform of glacial origin. (should get up in the loft and did my BA Aberystwyth lecture notes out ! - circa 1976) -

Quite right - Aberystwyth was the "secondary" option for the M+M Rly ! - and the following the twisty river valleys was a major challenge. That railway never made any real contribution to the shareholders , I regret. (and any re-opening certainly will not)

 

[Gareth Marston]

The dual carriageways up and down the Eastern Valley post date the railways by at least two decades. When I started commuting from Pontnewydd to Pontypool by bus in the late 70s the rail bed and bridges were still in place - so the bus went under a rail bridge at Pontrhydyrun which was the scene of a horrible bus crash in the 80s - similarly if I went to the match at Newport the bus weaved under a bridges at Cwmbran that was complicated by the proximity of the canal. If there was some wicked masterplan, it took two decades or more, because the trains stopped in the sixties, but the trackbed was there well into the 80s.

Big Pit produced coal for the NCB until 1980 and was rail served,here's a link to pics of a railtour in 78.

http://www.2d53.co.uk/Railtours/Welsh Wonder.htm

I have an OS map dated 1980 with the line from Llantarnam through old Cwmbran and up the valley past Pontypool as a black I.e operational railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's no coastal plain on the Ceredigion coast, the railways had to come inland and follow fairly narrow twisty river valleys. Another disadvantage of the original line between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen was that it was never built as such.it was the Manchester and Milford Railway they got to Tregaron inland about to drive through the mountains to get to the Wye valley when the scheme was abandoned and a line into Aberystwyth decided on.[/QUOTE]

I hate to disagree - but maybe not a "coastal plain" - but a geographical term that escapes me now (been a long , hard work week) - wave cut platform of glacial origin. (should get up in the loft and did my BA Aberystwyth lecture notes out ! - circa 1976) -

Quite right - Aberystwyth was the "secondary" option for the M+M Rly ! - and the following the twisty river valleys was a major challenge. That railway never made any real contribution to the shareholders , I regret. (and any re-opening certainly will not)

It's almost all hills that turn into cliffs and beach beneath apart from where a few narrow valleys go into the sea south of Aberystwyth whereas once you get to the Dyfi Estuary and north of it there's is a coastal plain which the Cambrian Coast line follows apart from the spectacular section along the cliffs at Friog.

 

[Gareth_inBlyth]

Big Pit produced coal for the NCB until 1980 and was rail served,here's a link to pics of a railtour in 78.

http://www.2d53.co.uk/Railtours/Welsh Wonder.htm

I have an OS map dated 1980 with the line from Llantarnam through old Cwmbran and up the valley past Pontypool as a black I.e operational railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It's almost all hills that turn into cliffs and beach beneath apart from where a few narrow valleys go into the sea south of Aberystwyth whereas once you get to the Dyfi Estuary and north of it there's is a coastal plain which the Cambrian Coast line follows apart from the spectacular section along the cliffs at Friog.

Yep, but Big Pit would have been railway served via the main line and Pontypool, not via the Cwmbran branch. I played rugby for a side in Old Cwmbran from about 1975, and we would routinely walk home from matches or training along the rail line. In fact we would decide, at Forgehammer, between continuing up the railway line to go for a possibly illegal drink in the Pontnewydd Inn, or switching to the canal towpath to go up to the Top Bridge.
I can't put a date on when it was lifted, which probably post dates the Pontrhydyrun accident, after which the bridge was demolished, but I know that the last time a train ran along it would have been when I was still in school. We all knew the difference between the line through Lower Pontnewydd, which was mainline, and busy, and the upper line which was a playground and short cut for us all.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yep, but Big Pit would have been railway served via the main line and Pontypool, not via the Cwmbran branch. I played rugby for a side in Old Cwmbran from about 1975, and we would routinely walk home from matches or training along the rail line. In fact we would decide, at Forgehammer, between continuing up the railway line to go for a possibly illegal drink in the Pontnewydd Inn, or switching to the canal towpath to go up to the Top Bridge.
I can't put a date on when it was lifted, which probably post dates the Pontrhydyrun accident, after which the bridge was demolished, but I know that the last time a train ran along it would have been when I was still in school. We all knew the difference between the line through Lower Pontnewydd, which was mainline, and busy, and the upper line which was a playground and short cut for us all.

My OS map clearly shows the branch coming off at Llantarnam and through Sebastapol. No junction at Pontypool Road anymore. What we need is a track atlas from 1979 or a description of a railtour using Llantarnam Junction in 1978.
Here's one
http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/70s/780311fw.htm

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My OS map clearly shows the branch coming off at Llantarnam and through Sebastapol. No junction at Pontypool Road anymore. What we need is a track atlas from 1979.

Was any of this a part of the line system of the former Monmouthshire Rail and Canal Company?

 

[Gareth Marston]

The dual carriageways up and down the Eastern Valley post date the railways by at least two decades. When I started commuting from Pontnewydd to Pontypool by bus in the late 70s the rail bed and bridges were still in place - so the bus went under a rail bridge at Pontrhydyrun which was the scene of a horrible bus crash in the 80s - similarly if I went to the match at Newport the bus weaved under a bridges at Cwmbran that was complicated by the proximity of the canal. If there was some wicked masterplan, it took two decades or more, because the trains stopped in the sixties, but the trackbed was there well into the 80s.

5 dead as double decker hit bridge only single decker could use it appears but were going off thread!

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?serial=9&img=Y-25-20
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was any of this a part of the line system of the former Monmouthshire Rail and Canal Company?

Yes but built as Newport and Pontypool Railway

 

[Gareth_inBlyth]

Was any of this a part of the line system of the former Monmouthshire Rail and Canal Company?

There were two lines half a mile apart; MRCC through Pontnewydd and Pontrhydyrun to Pontypool and beyond, and the old GWR line through Lower Pontnewydd which is still in use. The line I'm talking about is the old MRCC line, although, sometime around the 60s, the MRCC route to Newport was lifted, and the Cwmbran branch connected to Newport via Llantarnam Junction. (Our school cross country route included the closed section of the MRCC around Llantarnam).

 

[Tilehog]

Looks like an interesting meeting in carmarthen the other day. There was a lot of local media coverage.
http://www.trawslinkcymru.org.uk/?p=618
People aggrieved that we can talking about a cable car ride in Cardiff and ignoring the rest of the country's transport needs

 

[Gareth Marston]

Looks like an interesting meeting in carmarthen the other day. There was a lot of local media coverage.
http://www.trawslinkcymru.org.uk/?p=618
People aggrieved that we can talking about a cable car ride in Cardiff and ignoring the rest of the country's transport needs

Looks like Ed won't need Plaid votes so very unlikely to even get funding for a study out of the next Parliament. Scotland will do well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's no coastal plain on the Ceredigion coast, the railways had to come inland and follow fairly narrow twisty river valleys.

When one considers the effect that the recent winter storms had upon open unprotected coastal sections of the line south of Harlech, further up the bay coastline, that may have been a blessing of sorts.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A fully funded study into reopening in the line including a full cost benefit analysis capturing wider factors than time savings/ costs has appeared in Plaid Cymrus election manifesto.

 

[Greenback]

They've just lost my vote then!