Carnet ticket rejected

[rs101]

He could have issued a PF anyway on the basis that the ticket was not validated with the date correctly. Thankfully for the OP he took a different tact.

Why wasn't it validated correctly? Abellio simply state on their website/T&C that the ticket must be validated, not that the date must be written in the boxes provided. Some other TOCs do specifically state the boxes must be used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why wasn't it validated correctly? Abellio simply state on their website/T&C that the ticket must be validated, not that the date must be written in the boxes provided. Some other TOCs do specifically state the boxes must be used.

The ticket is validated by entering the date in the boxes, as is glaringly obvious by looking at it. Writing on it elsewhere isn't validating, it's defacing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[DaleCooper]

The ticket is validated by entering the date in the boxes, as is glaringly obvious by looking at it. Writing on it elsewhere isn't validating, it's defacing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I agree with this and suspect that the TOC will say the same.

 

[anme]

I agree with this and suspect that the TOC will say the same.

Given:
- the apparent difficulty of writing in the boxes
- that writing elsewhere on the ticket seems a pragmatic solution to that problem
- that doing so doesn't cause any direct or indirect financial loss to the TOC or open up any realistic avenues for abuse of the ticket...

...this seems an extreme reaction. As I wrote above, writing outside the boxes may be against the terms and conditions of the ticket, but I can't help thinking that if a TOC was unwise enough to take a case like this to court, a judge might take the view that such a trivial infringement did not justify any significant fine or costs to be awarded against the defendant. It would also be an interesting case to take to the press.

 

[Haywain]

Given:
- the apparent difficulty of writing in the boxes
- that writing elsewhere on the ticket seems a pragmatic solution to that problem
- that doing so doesn't cause any direct or indirect financial loss to the TOC or open up any realistic avenues for abuse of the ticket...

...this seems an extreme reaction. As I wrote above, writing outside the boxes may be against the terms and conditions of the ticket, but I can't help thinking that if a TOC was unwise enough to take a case like this to court, a judge might take the view that such a trivial infringement did not justify any significant fine or costs to be awarded against the defendant. It would also be an interesting case to take to the press.

Even when the TOC explain that writing elsewhere on the ticket is a typical trick of those trying to use the ticket more than once. Would the judge then take the same view?

 

[TonyR]

Even when the TOC explain that writing elsewhere on the ticket is a typical trick of those trying to use the ticket more than once. Would the judge then take the same view?

Please explain how you write on the ticket more than once. Why can you write on the face of the ticket more than once but only write in the boxes once?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[najaB]

Please explain how you write on the ticket more than once. Why can you write on the face of the ticket more than once but only write in the boxes once?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Depending on the pen you use it is sometimes possible to remove the ink. I understand that doing so damages the surface of the ticket (removes the glossy layer) meaning that it's obvious if you write in the same area again.

So you can write in different parts of the green area, but only once in the boxes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't understand why it would be an issue writing in the boxes but not on the face - isn't the entire surface of a thermal ticket the same apart from its colour?

 

[TonyR]

Depending on the pen you use it is sometimes possible to remove the ink. I understand that doing so damages the surface of the ticket (removes the glossy layer) meaning that it's obvious if you write in the same area again.

So you can write in different parts of the green area, but only once in the boxes.

I don't understand why you think the loss of the glossy layer in the boxes is not obvious unless you try to write over it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[najaB]

I don't understand why it would be an issue writing in the boxes but not on the face - isn't the entire surface of a thermal ticket the same apart from its colour?

Yes, the surface is very similar though not exactly the same (hence why the OP wrote on the face rather than in the boxes). But if you're intent on reusing a ticket you can write in different places on the face. Or once on the face, then once in the boxes.

I don't understand why you think the loss of the glossy layer in the boxes is not obvious unless you try to write over it.

It's obvious if you hold the ticket up to the light, but go over it lightly with a clear wax crayon and it's less so.

If you write over an area where the ink had been removed from the pen tends to smudge.

Note: I've only done this as an experiment (after a previous thread), I've never attempted to reuse a ticket.

 

[jon0844]

The orange part seems hardest to write on. Perhaps with the new ticket designs, the boxes could be on the non-orange bit, with clear instructions within the orange bit on how to complete (including DD/MM/YY format).

 

[rs101]

Even when the TOC explain that writing elsewhere on the ticket is a typical trick of those trying to use the ticket more than once. Would the judge then take the same view?

I'd hope the judge would ask for evidence that the ticket had been written on elsewhere in this particular case, not an irrelevant statement that it can happen in some cases.

There's also the complication in this case that the gateline staff allowed the traveller through with the ticket dated in this way. Surely they should have rejected it too?

 

[TonyR]

I'd hope the judge would ask for evidence that the ticket had been written on elsewhere in this particular case, not an irrelevant statement that it can happen in some cases.

It would be for the TOC to prove, not me to disprove. Simple forensics would easily show one way or the other.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Haywain]

I'd hope the judge would ask for evidence that the ticket had been written on elsewhere in this particular case, not an irrelevant statement that it can happen in some cases.

There's also the complication in this case that the gateline staff allowed the traveller through with the ticket dated in this way. Surely they should have rejected it too?

I think we were discussing whether, and why, the ticket could be considered defaced by writing the date in the wrong place. That argument does not depend on proving that it has previously been written on.

 

[DaleCooper]

All this talk of courts and judges is irrelevant. At the moment all that matters is the TOC's opinion; burden of proof or forensics just don't come in into it at this stage. Let's just hope for a goodwill gesture.

 

[rs101]

I think we were discussing whether, and why, the ticket could be considered defaced by writing the date in the wrong place. That argument does not depend on proving that it has previously been written on.

You raised the point that writing the date elsewhere is a method often used to try and re-use a ticket. That's the point we're discussing.

 

[Haywain]

You raised the point that writing the date elsewhere is a method often used to try and re-use a ticket. That's the point we're discussing.

No, I raised the point that the argument might be used by the TOC for stating that the ticket was defaced if the date had been written in the 'wrong' place on the ticket. Under the Conditions of Travel the TOC does not have to accept a ticket which has been defaced - what consititutes defaced is not specified.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All this talk of courts and judges is irrelevant. At the moment all that matters is the TOC's opinion; burden of proof or forensics just don't come in into it at this stage. Let's just hope for a goodwill gesture.

I agree.

 

[jon0844]

Staff advised me to write the date on the back as well - but you could argue that even that could be done fraudulently (write correct date, modify it later, write modified date on back).

We do know from back with FCC that they don't have forensic experts, nor do they handle the ticket in such a way to allow them to 'prove' a ticket has been tampered with. I think it's down to relying on the passenger admitting the offence, or being given a penalty of some sort and not contesting it.

The whole thing is a joke, hence my advice not to buy them unless you're fully prepared with the correct pen at all times. If you mess up a ticket, you bin it (and wipe out the savings very quickly).

Why we can't have these on smartcards I do not know. This is pretty much what the smart flexible season tickets would be, if the likes of Govia ever progressed on the idea.

 

[anme]

Why we can't have these on smartcards I do not know. This is pretty much what the smart flexible season tickets would be, if the likes of Govia ever progressed on the idea.

Govia (and most other TOCs) have no incentive to progress with flexible season tickets. If they save money for the passenger, they cost money for the TOC (unless they actually attract extra passengers, but that's unlikely in south east England).

The only way flexible season tickets will happen is if the government imposes them on the TOCs, and provides the necessary extra subsidy or allows the TOCs to raise other prices. Conversely, if flexible season tickets do not happen, the blame lies squarely with the government.

 

[jon0844]

Govia (and most other TOCs) have no incentive to progress with flexible season tickets. If they save money for the passenger, they cost money for the TOC (unless they actually attract extra passengers, but that's unlikely in south east England).

The only way flexible season tickets will happen is if the government imposes them on the TOCs, and provides the necessary extra subsidy or allows the TOCs to raise other prices. Conversely, if flexible season tickets do not happen, the blame lies squarely with the government.

But I thought the DfT or ATOC/RDG had spoken about these things, so I am not sure who to blame for the lack of progress.

 

[anme]

But I thought the DfT or ATOC/RDG had spoken about these things, so I am not sure who to blame for the lack of progress.

Various people may have spoken about flexible season tickets, but they clearly haven't done anything about them. The TOCs will not do anything without compensation of one form or another from the government. The ball is in the DfT's court.

If you feel strongly about this, I suggest writing to your MP.

 

[jon0844]

You seem very sure it's the fault of the Government, yet the GTR website mentions the DfT introducing a scheme for smart season tickets.

I'd like to know why it isn't happening, not who to blame. I am not sure my MP needs to get involved, and it would seem that if the DfT is behind such a scheme then the fault is more likely with the TOC anyway. Going by how slow GTR has been to introduce point to point ticketing, and no news at all on PAYG, I would definitely be thinking this is where the problem is, not the Government.

I don't buy carnets anymore, and fortunately don't really need them as I use a railcard to save money on off-peak tickets (can't use a Gold Card with a carnet) and try and arrange my meetings so I don't need to buy peak tickets at all.

 

[rs101]

Staff advised me to write the date on the back as well - but you could argue that even that could be done fraudulently (write correct date, modify it later, write modified date on back).

We do know from back with FCC that they don't have forensic experts, nor do they handle the ticket in such a way to allow them to 'prove' a ticket has been tampered with. I think it's down to relying on the passenger admitting the offence, or being given a penalty of some sort and not contesting it.

The whole thing is a joke, hence my advice not to buy them unless you're fully prepared with the correct pen at all times. If you mess up a ticket, you bin it (and wipe out the savings very quickly).

Why we can't have these on smartcards I do not know. This is pretty much what the smart flexible season tickets would be, if the likes of Govia ever progressed on the idea.

I quite like the suggestion of asking a TOC employee to validate the ticket instead - just a 'my pen doesn't work, can you date this ticket for me please'.

 

[jon0844]

I got some stamped with the date using a gripper, but you need to find someone who has one and have the time for them to do it.

I really do detest them and simply don't buy them now. The fairly minimal saving just isn't worth the effort, and if you mess up one of them you've not saved anything at all. Mess up more and you've lost money.

 

[Failed Unit]

I got some stamped with the date using a gripper, but you need to find someone who has one and have the time for them to do it.

I really do detest them and simply don't buy them now. The fairly minimal saving just isn't worth the effort, and if you mess up one of them you've not saved anything at all. Mess up more and you've lost money.

I have found (maybe because of a loophole) that they are exceptional value. I would need to go in 5 days per week rather than my current 4/5 to make a saving. (4/5 is cheaper so I use them, more because others can use them).

I still see no reason why the can't be on the key - considering how easy they are to defruad I would expect it was in the TOCs interest.

I will call out my journey.
Welwyn Garden City (barriers frequently open)
Old Street (barriers always open in the morning peak)

Chance of see RPI in peak - slim.

You can see my point... If they put it on the key and forced to tap in / out the revenue protection would be much easier.

I return from Moorgate - it is frustrating the amount of times I see error code 9 at that station.

 

[anme]

You seem very sure it's the fault of the Government, yet the GTR website mentions the DfT introducing a scheme for smart season tickets.

I'd like to know why it isn't happening, not who to blame. I am not sure my MP needs to get involved, and it would seem that if the DfT is behind such a scheme then the fault is more likely with the TOC anyway. Going by how slow GTR has been to introduce point to point ticketing, and no news at all on PAYG, I would definitely be thinking this is where the problem is, not the Government.

Why would a TOC introduce something that would cost them money unless they are forced to do it by the government?
Why aren't the government forcing them to do introduce flexible season tickets? Why isn't it part of all new franchise agreements?

It wouldn't be hard for a TOC to introduce this - a "write the date in the box" implementation as for rail rovers (*) would be sufficient, although proper smart tickets would be better, of course.

(*) carnet-style multiple undated tickets would not allow multiple journeys per day, which are allowed on normal season tickets, but perhaps even this would be acceptable to start with.

 

[TonyR]

I really do detest them and simply don't buy them now. The fairly minimal saving just isn't worth the effort, and if you mess up one of them you've not saved anything at all. Mess up more and you've lost money.

The savings for me are more than much more than minimal. Because of peak pricing I am frequently travelling into KGX off-peak from CBG but the return journey is either afternoon peak (16:00-19:00) or peak the next morning. An off peak Carnet is £11.10 and Anytime is £18.20. A single with a railcard. An Anytime single is £23.60 or £15.60 off-peak with a Network Card. On my return journeys its therefore the difference between £29.30 and £39.20. Its more marginal if I'm travelling day off-peak return where its £22.20 or £23.90.

The other big benefit is I don't have to worry about ticket queueing at the station so I can just turn up and walk on without having to arrive 10-15 mins early in case there is a big queue for tickets.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Govia (and most other TOCs) have no incentive to progress with flexible season tickets. If they save money for the passenger, they cost money for the TOC (unless they actually attract extra passengers, but that's unlikely in south east England).



The only way flexible season tickets will happen is if the government imposes them on the TOCs, and provides the necessary extra subsidy or allows the TOCs to raise other prices. Conversely, if flexible season tickets do not happen, the blame lies squarely with the government.

Its not just flexible season tickets. Everywhere else I travel - planes, German, Swiss, Danish etc trains, Eurostar, even Heathrow Express, I can buy a ticket and have it on my phone. As for cost, you get it a lot cheaper on Heathrow Express if you use their app and your phone than if you try to buy one on the train. So presumably they see a cost advantage to it.

So why, on the 10th birthday of the iPhone, are we still messing around with bits of paper on our national rail system?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[jon0844]

Not needing to queue up is a big advantage. No denying that!

The concept is sound, and if you make sure to get everything right then they're fine. I just stopped because I ruined a couple of tickets and said enough is enough. Plus my circumstances are a bit different because I try and travel off peak only, and there's no evening peak for me.

 

[Haywain]

I will call out my journey.
Welwyn Garden City (barriers frequently open)
Old Street (barriers always open in the morning peak)

Chance of see RPI in peak - slim.

You can see my point... If they put it on the key and forced to tap in / out the revenue protection would be much easier.

I return from Moorgate - it is frustrating the amount of times I see error code 9 at that station.

If the journey was on the Key, wouldn't those people who "forget" to fill in the date simply "forget" to tap in and out instead?

 

[Failed Unit]

If the journey was on the Key, wouldn't those people who "forget" to fill in the date simply "forget" to tap in and out instead?

They would - but the RPI could hit them a lot harder.

At the moment with the Carnet, you see an RPI coming down the coach you date the ticket before they get to you. If it was on the key you can't suddenly validate it just because an RPI is on the train.