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Cascading: What train will go where after electrification?

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Haydn1971

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Richmond - where's the £1Bn for the 30 EMU's coming from ?

It's clear that new EMU's will be better, but economics will rule out new stock, it's simply not gonna happen, then best we will see is cascaded IEP/SET's in 2030ish following a reduction in requirement for express trains on the ECML
 
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Haydn1971

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Also, you don't have to reduce to 6-7 carriages on all services, a balance of small faster and longer slower could nicely fit the bill - EMT run just five trains an hour out if St Pancras, speed differential isn't going to be a problem either
 

RichmondCommu

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Also, you don't have to reduce to 6-7 carriages on all services, a balance of small faster and longer slower could nicely fit the bill - EMT run just five trains an hour out if St Pancras, speed differential isn't going to be a problem either

So if speed differential isn't a problem why are you seeking to reduce the length of the 225's?
 

Haydn1971

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I'd leave them at full length, others are suggesting reducing to 6-7 carriages would improve acceleration, do keep up old boy ;)
 

RichmondCommu

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Richmond - where's the £1Bn for the 30 EMU's coming from ?

It's clear that new EMU's will be better, but economics will rule out new stock, it's simply not gonna happen, then best we will see is cascaded IEP/SET's in 2030ish following a reduction in requirement for express trains on the ECML

In answer to your question the leasing companies! Given that HS2 is likely to have very little effect on the MML there will be a requirement for 125mph capable units for many years to come; in other words the life time of a standard EMU.
 

Manchester77

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Having a homogenous fleet of short EMUs for EMT intercity stuff would be better though, capacity at St Pancras is low enough as it is so if you can double up trains and split them en route it'd allow more services out of St Pancras. Could the domestic midland line platforms at St Pancras accept 12 23m coaches with trains splitting further up the MML?
 

RichmondCommu

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I'd leave them at full length, others are suggesting reducing to 6-7 carriages would improve acceleration, do keep up old boy ;)

In other words you are losing time hand over fist and service users will simpy head to the M1. Surely you agree that would be a disaster? Just when the MML was on the up.
 

NotATrainspott

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Unlikely since HS2 will replace much of the MML intercity services and therefore new stock wouldn't have much of a long life. However if you use mark IVs with new locos as was one of the suggestions from eversholt you could use them up to 2032 when the mark IVs could be scrapped and the locos moved over the freight workings.

There will be loads of spare IEP/SET from ECML once HS2 starts running classic compatables on the York-Edinburgh services, leaving a small requirement for some Doncaster-London express services, but mostly the ECML south of Peterborough will be commuter style rolling stock

The 'idea' of IEP - 26m carriages, EMU, lots of seats, 200-230km/h - is the final form of the classic line InterCity train. After HS2 there will still be a lot of people going between Leicester or Peterborough and London and a 1/3-2/3rd door commuter train is not suitable. If you want crush-loading ability and to be able to run into Thameslink or Crossrail then a commuter EMU is fine but when you're running into the surface platforms at St Pancras or King's Cross a 26m end-door train is the best way of providing seats. The interiors may all be replaced with a high-density version but any Class 80x sent to run on the MML or ECML will have a full life ahead of them, even if the proper very long distance travellers end up on HS2.

I see where you are going, but there's lots of life in the 222's yet, common sense would suggest that replacements for the 222 fleet are procured towards 2030 (end of life) rather than 2020 when there's still a decade of life in the 222's, by which time we will have a better idea of the true passenger impact of HS2 and what exactly needs to replace the 22x fleets, specifically with respect to XC which will effectively become the second largest franchise after GWML because ECML/WCML will cease to offer the same degree of express service as today due to direct replacement of most service needs by HS2 via captive and classic compatible routes.

If the core of the CrossCountry network is electrified in CP6 then you might end up with 'bi-mode/electric 26m 200-230km/h multiple units' running on the South West-North East routes as well. Unless the Great Western bidders want the 22xs to run services to the West Country, I can very much see the 22xs being scrapped well before their natural end of life. They are thirsty trains which are rubbish at carrying large numbers of people and they were built when government policy was that the future lay in bio-diesel rather than electrification. They will be around 20 years old when XC would be able to lay its hands on Class 80x - it might be possible to use bits and bobs of them for other purposes as the 460s have been transformed into commuter units but if not then they will end up being scrapped. The high cost of running them would be as much a death sentence as the cost of retrieving 66734 from the banks of Loch Treig was to that loco, even if the trains are in perfect physical working order.

It may well be the DfTs pet project but if they're serious about keeping out of the rolling stock procurement process then new intercity trains for the MML would have to go out to competitive tender and IEP sounds like it would have competition; especially after alstom seem to want to re enter the UK market with intercity stuff and avoid the highly competitive commuter stuff.

If the DfT asks for a not-large fleet of the highest capacity InterCity train with no need for tilt, to be delivered around 2020, then in all likelihood the only bid that would be feasible would be the Hitachi one. If Hitachi want to make some minor changes to the Class 80x based upon experiences with the GWML and ECML fleets then they would be more than able to but the differences they would make would be like the differences between a Meridian and a Voyager.
 
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Qwerty133

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Having a homogenous fleet of short EMUs for EMT intercity stuff would be better though, capacity at St Pancras is low enough as it is so if you can double up trains and split them en route it'd allow more services out of St Pancras. Could the domestic midland line platforms at St Pancras accept 12 23m coaches with trains splitting further up the MML?

I don't know about St Pancras, but Leicester can't and I can't really see how they could be extended, especially at the southern end.
 

Haydn1971

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I'm afraid I don't agree with your viewpoint Richmond, leasing companies still have to magic circa £1Bn for new trains, the current leasing company will be willing to be very competitive on rates for the 225 fleet as they haven't anywhere else to go, there is no real conclusive evidence that journey times will significantly change by swapping from 222's to 225's, so I'm afraid we shall have to agree to disagree once again
 

The Ham

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To add, IEP/SET deliveries are set to continue into 2019 by which time MML electrification should be complete thus Hitachi couldn't supply IEP/SET units for the interim period whilst MML is being wired

I was more thinking about the fact that there would still be services beyond the MML which are not included in electrification yet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Once again you are posting on a railway line of which you clearly have very little knowledge. For many peak time services on the MML six coaches is simply not enough. The fact is HS2 is likely to have very little affect on the MML which is something that NR / DfT have already stated. By using 225's on the MML you are simply staving off the inevitable purchase of new trains. EMU's will always be quicker than 225's and five car EMU's will of course be far more flexible.

When it comes to capacity there's 6 coaches and 6 coaches. In that 6 mark 4's have potentially more capacity than a 6 coach 222.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There will be loads of spare IEP/SET from ECML once HS2 starts running classic compatables on the York-Edinburgh services, leaving a small requirement for some Doncaster-London express services, but mostly the ECML south of Peterborough will be commuter style rolling stock

I'm not so sure, as there will still be about the year 2000's number of passengers looking to use the ECML and WCML, OK they are not going to be going end to end, but there will still be plenty of people wishing to travel fairly fast between key points not served by HS2.

Also there are only so many paths on HS2, so it may only be an hourly service for some CC services. Meaning that there will be demand to get to HS2 stations or even either side of HS2 stations.

Yes that is unlikely to need all the IEP's, but there is likely to be a significant prepotion of them in use.

Then of course an bi-modal IEP's could find a use on the outer edges of the IC network were electrification could not have reached. (Scotland, Cornwall, etc.) and/or on lines where OHLE is difficult and has been put in the too dificult to do yet pile (i.e. southern end of Chiltern).

I see where you are going, but there's lots of life in the 222's yet, common sense would suggest that replacements for the 222 fleet are procured towards 2030 (end of life) rather than 2020 when there's still a decade of life in the 222's, by which time we will have a better idea of the true passenger impact of HS2 and what exactly needs to replace the 22x fleets, specifically with respect to XC which will effectively become the second largest franchise after GWML because ECML/WCML will cease to offer the same degree of express service as today due to direct replacement of most service needs by HS2 via captive and classic compatible routes.

However it is likely that XC would require significant numbers of trains to replace their 22x's as they become life expired at that point. Also anyone else who has taken on any of the 22x's would also be looking for new stock at that time.

As I have said before I could see the 22x's being reformed to provide longers sets once they start to be less heaverly used so as to keep them being of use (i.e. leasing company would find it better to lease a 6 coach 220 and store/scrap 2 end coaches than not lease 2 x 4 coach 220's).

I could even see them being used on services like Exeter to Waterloo (depending on electrification) as a 9 coach set (or a pair of 5 coach sets) would have a similar number of seats as a 10 coach 158/159 train.

Alternitively the IEP's could find a use on HS3 (or at the very least TPE), as they would be able to benefit from any linespeed improvements above 125mph.

Failing all of that there is the possibility that the GWML services could be looking to lengthen their trains beyond 9 coaches, which would could reduce the number of 9 coach sets by 5 (assuming a minimum lenght of 5 coaches on the shortened sets) and use up 20 of the "spare" coaches.

I don't think that we need to worry about work for about 900 coaches of intercity class trains (some of which are able to run away from the wires) which as yet haven't been delivered and most of which (easily 500; as 369 will still be in use on the core GWML services and there will still be a need for the Scotish Highland services) will still be in day to day use on the lines for which they were ordered. Before any are used on any other suitable routes.
 

Boothby97

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Wouldn't the 222s be best suited to either London-Penzance (I'm assuming GW aren't getting any bi-mode IEPs) or Scotland (could they be refurbished as these 'tourist trains' that are required in the next franchise).
Would IEP work for CrossCountry services, just need do some short sections of infill electrification (such as Sheffield-Doncaster, Derby-Birmingham, Bromsgrove(?)-Bristol) and then then main parts of the XC will be electrified.
 

Haydn1971

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Agree that consolidating the Voyager/Meridian fleets into longer units is a logical way forward for that fleet at some point after MML is wired... The big question for me is about the 222 fleet going to VT and the VT 221 fleet moving to XC which would boast both services, although I'm still thinking EMT would keep some 222's for their other long distance non wired routes, Norwich-Liverpool for example, which could still go to TPE.

I'd be interested to know just how much of the XC network is wired and more importantly, how much will be wired by 2020 when the fairly large 222 fleet becomes available...
 

SpacePhoenix

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What will be the approximate remaining life span of the 158s and 159s by 2020? If it's very little, then the 222s could be moved to SWT to take over the Waterloo-Exeter route (assuming that electrification of that route is not in the pipeline by then).

If 22x's are consolidated to form longer trains, could the spare end coaches be converted to all standard class, with a normal toilet in some, a disabled toilet in others and used as two-car DMUs (possibly replacing some 15xs which might be knackered by that point)?
 

The Ham

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What will be the approximate remaining life span of the 158s and 159s by 2020? If it's very little, then the 222s could be moved to SWT to take over the Waterloo-Exeter route (assuming that electrification of that route is not in the pipeline by then).

If 22x's are consolidated to form longer trains, could the spare end coaches be converted to all standard class, with a normal toilet in some, a disabled toilet in others and used as two-car DMUs (possibly replacing some 15xs which might be knackered by that point)?

22x's are likely to be able to provide the same number of seats on the WofE line into Waterloo as the 158's/159's if they were formed as full 10 coach trains (i.e. only 2 end vehicles). Which would only likely to happen if there was a lack of use for them elsewhere.
 

Qwerty133

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Agree that consolidating the Voyager/Meridian fleets into longer units is a logical way forward for that fleet at some point after MML is wired... The big question for me is about the 222 fleet going to VT and the VT 221 fleet moving to XC which would boast both services, although I'm still thinking EMT would keep some 222's for their other long distance non wired routes, Norwich-Liverpool for example, which could still go to TPE.

I'd be interested to know just how much of the XC network is wired and more importantly, how much will be wired by 2020 when the fairly large 222 fleet becomes available...

VT can't use the 222s, they don't have tilt :roll:
 

edwin_m

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Richmond - where's the £1Bn for the 30 EMU's coming from ?

That figure seems very high. New straight EMUs (rather than IEPs) shouldn't be much more than £1.5m per car at today's prices. London-Sheffield will probably mostly transfer to HS2 but London-Leicester certainly won't and London/Derby-Nottingham will be somewhere in between, so nearly all journeys will be well under 2hr. The spec is very similar to that of Transpennine and Scotland.

The IEP figure for East Coast may not reduce as much as some people think, given that London-York is only about 30min quicker via HS2 and there will still be a need for trains between Kings Cross and north of York. The number available for cascade will depend on exactly how attrative HS2 proves to be and how much growth there is on GWML and ECML in the meantime.

West Coast Pendolinos will also be getting towards life expiry by the time HS2 phase 2 opens.
 

The Ham

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Agree that consolidating the Voyager/Meridian fleets into longer units is a logical way forward for that fleet at some point after MML is wired... The big question for me is about the 222 fleet going to VT and the VT 221 fleet moving to XC which would boast both services, although I'm still thinking EMT would keep some 222's for their other long distance non wired routes, Norwich-Liverpool for example, which could still go to TPE.

I'd be interested to know just how much of the XC network is wired and more importantly, how much will be wired by 2020 when the fairly large 222 fleet becomes available...

Based on the last ICWC (failed) bids, I doubt that there would be the need for the number of the 221's which there are currently are on the WCML.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Agree that consolidating the Voyager/Meridian fleets into longer units is a logical way forward for that fleet at some point after MML is wired... The big question for me is about the 222 fleet going to VT and the VT 221 fleet moving to XC which would boast both services, although I'm still thinking EMT would keep some 222's for their other long distance non wired routes, Norwich-Liverpool for example, which could still go to TPE.

I'd be interested to know just how much of the XC network is wired and more importantly, how much will be wired by 2020 when the fairly large 222 fleet becomes available...

Voyagers running under the wires on XC:

187 miles Doncaster-Edinburgh-Glasgow Central
110 miles Coventry-Manchester
5 miles Birmingham-Kings Norton (fast lines not wired Kings Norton-Barnt Green)
60 miles Basingstoke-Bournemouth (DC)
Total 302 miles (plus 60 DC)

TP electrification will add: 25 miles Leeds-York
GW electrification will add:
24 miles Oxford-Reading
15 miles Reading-Basingstoke (eventually)
6 miles Bristol TM-Parkway
34 miles Bristol Parkway-Cardiff
MML electrification will add: 37 miles Derby-Sheffield
Electric spine may or may not add:
53 miles Oxford-Coventry
32 miles Basingstoke-Southampton (AC conversion)
Total 226 miles, or 528 miles altogether, plus 28 still DC)

For the purists, XC also run under the wires Ely-Stansted (40 miles), but not with Voyagers.
Nottingham-Derby and Severn Tunnel Jn-Cardiff also go electric under GW/MML schemes (Nottingham-Cardiff XC services).
 
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Haydn1971

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VT can't use the 222s, they don't have tilt :roll:


I'm not entirely convinced that having slightly faster point to point speeds vs having a seat will win favour with passengers - I for one like to have a seat for my £100 odd ticket, arriving 3-4 minutes slower isn't a problem
 

Domh245

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But I think that Virgin won't like having a slower train chugging along the fasts getting in the way of their shiny fast tilting trains, something that would happen unless you rejigged the timetables
 

Qwerty133

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I'm not entirely convinced that having slightly faster point to point speeds vs having a seat will win favour with passengers - I for one like to have a seat for my £100 odd ticket, arriving 3-4 minutes slower isn't a problem

I disagree that passengers (read commuters) would be happy with slower journey times , but even if they'd were it would reduce the number of paths available on an already crowded mainline. Non tilt trains are limited to 110MPH, and to get the maximum number of paths all trains need to be able to do the same speed and on the WCML this speed is 125MPH.
Which service would you remove from the timetable to allow non tilt units onto the WCML?
 
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Class83

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That figure seems very high. New straight EMUs (rather than IEPs) shouldn't be much more than £1.5m per car at today's prices. London-Sheffield will probably mostly transfer to HS2 but London-Leicester certainly won't and London/Derby-Nottingham will be somewhere in between, so nearly all journeys will be well under 2hr. The spec is very similar to that of Transpennine and Scotland.

The IEP figure for East Coast may not reduce as much as some people think, given that London-York is only about 30min quicker via HS2 and there will still be a need for trains between Kings Cross and north of York. The number available for cascade will depend on exactly how attrative HS2 proves to be and how much growth there is on GWML and ECML in the meantime.

West Coast Pendolinos will also be getting towards life expiry by the time HS2 phase 2 opens.

I'm not sure that 'most' of the Sheffield market will transfer to HS2, the station is in the wrong place for the West Sheffield business travellers so by the time they get a northern rail service to meadowhall and change to HS2 (or just stay in their taxi for another 10 minutes and go straight there) the time saving won't be very much so they may well just use the existing MML. Also, HS2 isn't scheduled to open to East Mids/Meadowhall until 2035 so there will be 15 years after electrification before it stops being the primary intercity route, by which time the IC225s will be 45 years old.
 

Haydn1971

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That figure seems very high. New straight EMUs (rather than IEPs) shouldn't be much more than £1.5m per car at today's prices.


The £1Bn I quoted was based on IEP prices, that was the cost of the 30 unit extension, well actually £1.2Bn for 30 nine car 125mph EMU's, that's £3.7m per car - the £1.5m you quote is close to the £1.4m per car cost of the Class 700 fleet but less than the £1.7m per car of the Class 345 fleet, both of which are relatively simple 90/100mph EMU's, no complex bi-modes or mix of diesel and electric - so perhaps yes, 30 trains for MML could be less than £1Bn, with perhaps 10x 110mph 8 car EMU's for the inner services at let's say Crossrail prices - that's £136m plus 20x 8 car 125mph Express Trains (could be a mix of lengths, but let's say standard 8 cars for now) at a cost somewhere between Crossrail and IEP, let's say £2.5m per car - that's £400m so still at very least £536Bn plus infrastructure changes at depots and stations, I'd expect the cost to be more in the order of £700m, because smaller fleets will end up costing more per car - economies of scale
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Thank you ;) how does that translate to percentage of total mileage for XC ?

It just leaves:
295 miles Kings Norton-Penzance
30 miles of missing link in south Yorkshire (which I'm sure will be wired),
42 miles Derby-Birmingham
20 Birmingham-Solihull-Leamington
130 miles Edinburgh-Aberdeen

I'll let you do the sums.
In any case, who says XC will survive in its present form?
It might be carved up between the regions at the next franchise relet.
 

Haydn1971

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Non tilt trains are limited to 110MPH, and to get the maximum number of paths all trains need to be able to do the same speed and on the WCML this speed is 125MPH.
Which service would you remove from the timetable to allow non tilt units onto the WCML?


It has been said elsewhere that there are considerable sections of the WCML that could be operated at 125mph without tilt, there are also considerable sections where 110mph or less is the maximum speed regardless of tilt - I'm not convinced that running non-tilt on the WCML in particular on the most congested sections which are already shared with numerous slower local and freight services is going to make any impact overall.
 

Haydn1971

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I'll let you do the sums.

Thanks, your a star !

In any case, who says XC will survive in its present form? It might be carved up between the regions at the next franchise relet.


Fair comment, but to be fair, we haven't seen any consultation hints at this, so I'd assume XC will stay similar for the short-medium term at least.
 

LLivery

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I really struggle to buy that HS2 will do anything to MML & ECML services. Hardly anyone in Nottingham, Derby and maybe Sheffield are going to go out of city to get on a more expensive train and to save minutes (which will be contradictory as it will take longer to get to the station for most people). To be honest I wouldn't even have the East Midlands branch of HS2. I see HS2 as increasing capacity for the WCML, nothing more.

As for knowing the MML. I'm from Wellingborough so I know all about the MML. Electras or 225s I don't think would be unpopular. I mean did anyone see the comments from people when they announced the millions NR spent on reducing journey time by a few minutes? The jist of what mainly said was: what a stupid waste of money. The journey times have never really been an issue for people, the ridiculous fares from London to Northamptonshire, yes. The lack of capacity, yes. The one train per hour from Northants to Lecister/Notts/Derby, yes. Hour(ish) time from London to Leicester, no.

Oh and when First Great Western decided to swamp the GWML with HSTs, ridding the 180s, passengers didn't really have a meltdown over journey times.

225s would work on Anglia but I think they want better acceleration to have ''Norwich in 90'' Currently its about the same time to go via Cambridge. The 222s would be good for Norwich to Liverpool but better on London to Penzance. I find it strange the Multiple Units are soo popular, don't get me wrong I'm a big fan of the Meridians but Loco Hauled brings flexibility that DMUs/EMUs don't, just look that the Deutsche Bahn 101 class - its incredible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The £1Bn I quoted was based on IEP prices, that was the cost of the 30 unit extension, well actually £1.2Bn for 30 nine car 125mph EMU's, that's £3.7m per car - the £1.5m you quote is close to the £1.4m per car cost of the Class 700 fleet but less than the £1.7m per car of the Class 345 fleet, both of which are relatively simple 90/100mph EMU's, no complex bi-modes or mix of diesel and electric - so perhaps yes, 30 trains for MML could be less than £1Bn, with perhaps 10x 110mph 8 car EMU's for the inner services at let's say Crossrail prices - that's £136m plus 20x 8 car 125mph Express Trains (could be a mix of lengths, but let's say standard 8 cars for now) at a cost somewhere between Crossrail and IEP, let's say £2.5m per car - that's £400m so still at very least £536Bn plus infrastructure changes at depots and stations, I'd expect the cost to be more in the order of £700m, because smaller fleets will end up costing more per car - economies of scale

The problem with Corby, is that it seems a little shortsighted. A fleet of 10 sounds stupid unless they are 10 of many which are run elsewhere. I would have 10 more 700s, built for 110mph at 10 car lenghts. With some Thameslink services going to Corby at peaks. Electrification from Corby to Melton and Leicester should also happen, then extend trains, hourly, to Melton Mowbray. Also works as a good diversion, and lessen the demand on capacity via Market Harborough as freight would go via Corby.
 
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