Caught Using a 11-15 card

[AlterEgo]

A key question for anyone investigating this matter is - if you haven't had your ZIP card for nearly six months because it was lost/broken, how have you been making journeys?

They'll audit the use of your own card, so have a think about how that might look if there are no journeys on it for a while.

 

[2019292]

I would either walk to school or walk back home. My parents would drop me and my brother to school in mornings and sometimes pick us up.
I spent most of the journeys walking since the school was local. I also passed driving and my friends drive so there was also that option.

my parents hadnt sent it yet as i had a exam.
this is what they wrote:
any feedback will be appreciated
YB= younger brother
M= me ( who messed up )

To whom this may concern,
YB was not aware of his brother taking his oyster. On 17th May 2023 YB and M were together at this point M was visibly distressed and asked YB for his oyster which he replied its on the table. YB left to go school with his mother. He didn’t take his oyster with him because he had a bike injury in which his mother has to take him to school and home.
Then afterwards M who you already know was very stressed out took the oyster.
I as a parent am ashamed and wished M would have asked me before doing this. I am very disappointed and will make sure that this will never happen again. As you already will know that we ordered both oysters for both of my children.
As well as M has offered to pay for the fare and any additional charges.
Please forgive both M for his behaviour.
I promise to you that he did not mean for any of this to happen and was only focusing on his exams.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I think that this is in reply to the request to your parents for information about whether YB knew about your use of the card? I've assumed that in what I say here but if I've got it wrong then please say!

So if I have got that right, I think that's generally a good reply, but there's a few small suggestions and comments that I'd make: I've put them in italics

To whom this may concern, [No one should get too worked up about how the letter is addressed and there's nothing wrong with this, but 'Dear Sir or Madam' is more normal]
YB was not aware of his brother taking his oyster. On 17th May 2023 YB and M were together: [I'd break this sentence here to make it read a bit more easily] at this point M was visibly distressed [why? I appreciate that you might not want to share this with the forum, but if you're going to make this assertion in the letter to TfL then they do need to know why] and asked YB for his oyster which he replied its on the table. YB left to go school with his mother. He didn’t take his oyster with him because he had a bike injury in which so his mother has to take him to school and home.
Then afterwards M who you already know was very stressed out took the oyster.
I as a parent am ashamed and wished M would have asked me before doing this. I am very disappointed and will make sure that this will never happen again. As you already will know that we ordered both oysters for both of my children.
As well as M has offered to pay for the fare and any additional charges.
Please forgive both M for his behaviour.
I promise to you that he did not mean for any of this to happen and was only focusing on his exams.

 

[Dai Corner]

One observation.

M asking YB for his Oyster and YB replying that it was on the table could be read as YB giving M permission to use it.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

No - that doesn't happen in these situations. I think we can assume you were only borrowing it, can't we? In law, theft requires an intention of permanently depriving the owner. Amongst other things, they would have to prove you intended not to return it, which they'd struggle to do unless you admitted that or you'd deliberately destroyed and discarded it - so theft wouldn't normally be considered. (Caveat: This doesn't apply here, but if the Oyster card had credit on it that was spent, then you might be able to say the owner had been permanently deprived of that value. Also if you kept it long enough preventing him from using it when he needed to so he had to buy tickets.) You can read a summary of the law here - https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/theft-act-offences

Hence, of course, the need for a “Taking Without Consent” offence for vehicles. (I’ve never heard of someone being charged for theft of the fuel used in such situations, which is somewhat analogous to Oyster credit in the above situation.)

 

[2019292]

thanks for the replies.

m was distressed due to his exams that were coming up.

M asking YB: the way my parents wrote that was to say thats how M knew where it was.

Dear Sir or Madam
YB was not aware of his brother taking his oyster. On the morning of 17th May 2023 YB and M were in the kitchen. M was visibly distressed because he was worrying about his upcoming A-level exam. M asked YB where is his oyster which he replied its on the table. YB left to go school with his mother. He didn’t take his oyster with him because he had a bike injury so his mother has to take him to school and home.
Then afterwards M who you already know was very stressed out took the oyster.
I as a parent am ashamed and wished M would have asked me before doing this. I am very disappointed and will make sure that this will never happen again. As you already will know that we ordered both oysters for both of my children.
As well as M has offered to pay for the fare and any additional charges.
Please forgive both M for his behaviour.
I promise to you that he did not mean for any of this to happen and was only focusing on his exams.

 

[MotCO]

thanks for the replies.

m was distressed due to his exams that were coming up.

M asking YB: the way my parents wrote that was to say thats how M knew where it was.

Dear Sir or Madam
YB was not aware of his brother taking his oyster. On the morning of 17th May 2023 YB and M were in the kitchen. M was visibly distressed because he was worrying about his upcoming A-level exam. On this one occasion, M asked YB where is his oyster which he replied its on the table; at other times, I either walk to school or my parents give me a lift. YB left to go school with his mother. He didn’t take his oyster with him because he had a bike injury so his mother has to take him to school and home.
Then afterwards M who you already know was very stressed out took the oyster.
I as a parent am ashamed and wished M would have asked me before doing this. I am very disappointed and will make sure that this will never happen again. As you already will know that we ordered both oysters for both of my children.
As well as M has offered to pay for the fare and any additional charges.
Please forgive both M for his behaviour.
I promise to you that he did not mean for any of this to happen and was only focusing on his exams.

Based on your earlier comments, is it worth adding the few words I have included in bold if it is true? This is to head off any other suspicions TfL may have that it has happened on more than one occasion.

 

[2019292]

thanks for the reply MotCo

in the email i wrote to tfl regarding myself only, not my brothers pov. i wrote i needed a place to cool off, i didnt specify where.
it is true that i either walk to school or my parents give me a lift but in this case im unsure how thatll work.


i will post my email i sent here.

To whom it may concern,
I accept that the fact I have committed a offence.

I firstly would like to apologise for my actions on 17/05/2023 and the time I have wasted of who is reading this. While there is no excuse for my behaviour I would like to thank TFL for allowing me to explain it.
I was very stressed out that day due to my A-Level exam that will happen on the 19th, I decided to leave the house to go to another place to cool down previously I had a 16-18 oyster however I found it broken a couple of days prior to the offence when I was cleaning up my room. Without thinking and feeling the pressure of stress I took my brother's oyster under the impression I wasn’t committing such a serious offence since my card was also free however that does not excuse my behaviour and now have learnt that it is illegal and to never ever attempt to use another person oyster other than myself. The days after my offence I have spent ashamed and very upset since I never have had a conviction nor been in trouble like this ever. While this does not rectify my behaviour I applied for an Oyster card straight away after the offence took place and did have to call customer service prior to applying due to an issue with the account.
I know this does not begin to justify my behaviour and there is no excuse I should be punished but I made a honest mistake please do not prosecute me because this will impact my future in the pharmaceutical/medical field I will pursue this year due to the enhanced DBS checks they conduct.
If it is possible to pay the outstanding fare and additional costs, please allow me to do this. As well as I will make sure to spread my story to others so they do not make the same mistake.
Please forgive me
Thank you
I have attached proof of my exam, proof I have applied for a new oyster and a signature on paper as a pdf.

 

[MrJeeves]

Dear Transport for London,

To whom it may concern,
I accept that the fact I have committed a offence.

I firstly would like to apologise for my actions on 17/05/2023 and the time I have wasted of who is reading this. While there is no excuse for my behaviour, I would like to thank TFL TfL for allowing me to explain it.

I was very stressed out on that day due to my A-level exam that will happen on the scheduled for 19th May,. I decided to leave the house to go to another place to cool down relax. pPreviously, I had a 16-18 oyster Oyster, however I found it broken a couple of days prior to the offence when I was cleaning up my room. Without thinking, and feeling the pressure of stress, I took my brother's oyster Oyster under the impression I wasn’t committing such a serious offence this was not a major issue since my card was also free, however that does not excuse my behaviour and now have learnt that it is illegal and to never ever attempt to use another person's discounted oyster Oyster other than myself.

The days after my offence I have spent ashamed and very upset since I never have had a conviction nor been in trouble like this ever. I have never had issues with TfL or other railway operators in the past. While this it does not rectify justify my behaviour, I have now re-applied for an Oyster card so that I do not repeat this error again. straight away after the offence took place and did have to call customer service prior to applying due to an issue with the account.

I know this does not begin to justify my behaviour and there is no excuse I should be punished but I would like to reaffirm that this was an made a honest mistake, and I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to pay any outstanding fare owed, as well as the administrative costs of your investigation so as to not negatively affect my future career prospects as a future medical student. please do not prosecute me because this will impact my future in the pharmaceutical/medical field I will pursue this year due to the enhanced DBS checks they conduct.

If it is possible to pay the outstanding fare and additional costs, please allow me to do this. As well as I will make sure to spread my story to others so they do not make the same mistake.
Please forgive me
Thank you

Yours faithfully
<YOUR NAME>

I have attached proof of my exam, proof I have applied for a new oyster and a signature on paper as a pdf.

I've made some changes to shorten your letter, and more clearly state your end goal in your closing paragraph. It is worth waiting for others to come along and read what you have written, too.

 

[Papyrus]

Certainly wouldn’t advise volunteering a conversation with your brother in the privacy of your home which no-one else heard, that could be construed as putting him on notice that you were intending to use his card.

Unnecessary (finding it on the table seems perfectly plausible without directions) and risks your brother losing his card owing to a breach of the terms on which it was issued.

 

[2019292]

Mr Jeeves, thank you for your feedback however that was sent last week. i attached it to show MotCo why i was unsure adding his line.

Can anyone tell me what are the likely consequences for writing that my brother wasn't aware of me taking the oyster?
The positive is that my brother will not be affected whatsoever?
Also is there a difference in the bylaws for rail and bus?

Certainly wouldn’t advise volunteering a conversation with your brother in the privacy of your home which no-one else heard, that could be construed as putting him on notice that you were intending to use his card.

Unnecessary (finding it on the table seems perfectly plausible without directions) and risks your brother losing his card owing to a breach of the terms on which it was issued.

okay thank you

is this better?

On the morning of 17th May 2023 YB and M were in the kitchen. M was visibly distressed because he was worrying about his upcoming A-level exam. YB left to go school with his mother. M found his oyster on the table.
YB didn’t take his oyster with him because he had a bike injury so his mother has to take him to school and home.

 

[MrJeeves]

Mr Jeeves, thank you for your feedback however that was sent last week. i attached it to show MotCo why i was unsure adding his line.

Ah, sorry!

Also is there a difference in the bylaws for rail and bus?

I believe convictions from offences on bus are few and far between. The bigger issue is the misuse of a discounted Oyster over anything else.

 

[2019292]

Hello! Thank you for everyone who has been advising me and giving me feedback.
I will be sending this draft.

Dear Sir or Madam
YB was not aware of his brother taking his oyster. On the morning of 17th May 2023 YB and M were in the kitchen. YB left to go school with his mother. YB didn’t take his oyster with him because he had a bike injury so his mother had to take him to school and home. M found the oyster on the table which he ended up using a hour later.
I as a parent am ashamed and wished M would have asked me before doing this. I know that M had been very stressed out that week but even so I am very disappointed and will make sure that this will never happen again. As you already will know that we ordered both oysters for both of my children.
As well as M has offered to pay for the fare and any additional charges.
Please forgive both M for his behaviour.
I promise to you that he did not mean for any of this to happen and was only focusing on his exams.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hello! Thank you for everyone who has been advising me and giving me feedback.
I will be sending this draft.

Dear Sir or Madam
YB was not aware of his brother taking his oyster. On the morning of 17th May 2023 YB and M were in the kitchen. YB left to go school with his mother. YB didn’t take his oyster with him because he had a bike injury so his mother had to take him to school and home. M found the oyster on the table which he ended up using a hour later.
I as a parent am ashamed and wished M would have asked me before doing this. I know that M had been very stressed out that week but even so I am very disappointed and will make sure that this will never happen again. As you already will know that we ordered both oysters for both of my children.
As well as M has offered to pay for the fare and any additional charges.
Please forgive both M for his behaviour.
I promise to you that he did not mean for any of this to happen and was only focusing on his exams.

This, I think is good. Ask your parents to send it, and while you will have to worry about what TfL will decide, you won't have to worry any more about what to write.

 

[43066]

(I’ve never heard of someone being charged for theft of the fuel used in such situations, which is somewhat analogous to Oyster credit in the above situation.)

Making off without payment would cover this kind of thing, where the elements of “traditional” theft aren’t made out. See also the scenario of running out of a restaurant without paying the bill.

 

[2019292]

Hello,
An update for those who are interested or those similar in my position. While I did say my brother had no involvement in what has happened, his oyster has been suspended for one year, and they have said he can volunteer to reduce the suspension time.

 

[Hadders]

Hello,
An update for those who are interested or those similar in my position. While I did say my brother had no involvement in what has happened, his oyster has been suspended for one year, and they have said he can volunteer to reduce the suspension time.

Thanks for letting us know. That is an interesting outcome, not one I have come across before.

Have they said how much volunteering has to be done, or what sort of volunteering it should be?

 

[island]

Thanks for letting us know. That is an interesting outcome, not one I have come across before.

Have they said how much volunteering has to be done, or what sort of volunteering it should be?

This process has been around since August 2009 and involves 4 hours' volunteer work at Thames21, Spitalfields City Farm, or other options selected by the person who lost their pass; Google "TfL earn your travel back".

 

[MrJeeves]

Never knew of this scheme, but I'm definitely a fan. It gives young people the chance to make up for a mistake while also helping their community. 4 hours of volunteering is nothing for the benefit of free travel.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

This scheme seems like a really good idea... OP, just out of interest, how does your brother feel about the volunteering idea?

 

[2019292]

Update
This is a email that i received 10 minutes ago regarding my case:

Thank you for responding to our enquiry letter and apologise for the late response.



With the onus on the passenger to have the correct ticket or Pass for the journey being taken, Transport for London takes Fare Evasion and Concessionary Pass abuse very seriously. With this in mind your comments will be taken into consideration when reviewing this case and I am satisfied that this case will proceed in accordance with our prosecution policy.



Please do not hesitate to contact the Investigations, Appeals and Prosecutions department if you have any other information you wish to add, to assist with your case. For more information see https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/prosecutions. And for further advise please contact either the Citizens Advise Beau or The Law Society.


Does this mean that I'm actually ****ed?

 

[island]

If they're deciding to take forward a prosecution, then it will likely end up in a fine for yourself. TfL usually prosecutes under their byelaws, which aren't a recordable offence and in principle won't appear on a criminal record.

 

[2019292]

So I’ll be fined. Not likely to have a criminal record?

Even if they do like an enhanced dbs check there will be nothing?
Is a fine similar to like getting a parking ticket?

 

[Hadders]

A prosecution under the TfL Bylaws is the likely outcome.

This is normally dealt with under what’s called the Single Justice Notice Procedure. What this means is that you have the option to plead guilty and a single magistrate will decide the outcome. You can write any mitigation that you want the magistrate to take into consideration on the form.

You can also decide to plead guilty and request to be dealt with in person. Also, you can plead guilty and but you would then have to attend court.

If you plead guilty or are found guilty you are likely to have to pay:

A fine imposed by the court as punishment (usually discounted by a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity)
A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine.
A contribution towards TfL’s costs
Compensation for the fare avoided

A Bylaw conviction isn’t normally recorded on the Police National Computer and won’t normally appear to DBS checks, although we would normally advise be honest about what has happened if asked if you have any convictions. A conviction for a minor ticketing matter won’t normally have an adverse impact on your career.

 

[2019292]

is it possible to avoid a by-law conviction altogether?
Do you think it is wise to contact a solicitor?

 

[AlterEgo]

is it possible to avoid a by-law conviction altogether?
Do you think it is wise to contact a solicitor?

You could try Manak Solicitors whom we have heard of on here before. However, legal representation is expensive and there is no guarantee of success.

This is not a parking fine. You are being prosecuted for committing a criminal offence.

 

[2019292]

okay thank you
Ive heard people mention "out of court settlements" this is not whats going to happen to me right?

 

[Haywain]

okay thank you
Ive heard people mention "out of court settlements" this is not whats going to happen to me right?

It's not looking good for that now, although there's nothing to stop you writing again and specifically asking if a settlement could be considered. If you were to hire a solicitor, you will stand a much better chance of getting a settlement but at a much greater expense - I think another poster suggested paying Manak something like £600 on top of the settlement they negotiated for them.

 

[2019292]

so you would have to ask tfl if you could get a settlement rather than them offering it

would it be more appropriate to email tfl myself or is it better to contact manak solicitor first?

 

[Haywain]

so you would have to ask tfl if you could get a settlement rather than them offering it

Yes.

would it be more appropriate to email tfl myself or is it better to contact manak solicitor first?

Have you got £600 to spare?