Census 2021: any comments?

[DarloRich]

Not in 1941 though, for some reason that I can't quite recall.

I didn't know that - I thought it was still carried out.

 

[swt_passenger]

I didn't know that - I thought it was still carried out.

Cancelled, however there had been a “national register” taken in September 1939. It wasnt a census, but it was carried out using the basic census organisation for ID card and ration book issuing purposes. AIUI the senior census enumerators were starting to be recruited and allocated to areas by then, so it wasn’t too difficult to bring everything forward 18 months or so. Although any active servicemen were not included, it is almost as useful as a census to family history researchers, especially as full dates of birth were recorded.

After the war the register was used as the basis of the NHS index, and was maintained by them by making manual amendments (eg on marriage) until the early 90s.

 

[XAM2175]

I have either been living with parents or in shared households, so I've never actually completed a census before. This will be a first for me.

Same for me, although technically my second because my area was included in the rehearsal done in 2019. Don't go holding your breath right now though - the Scottish census has been postponed to next year. Sensible, I think, given the various complications COVID has introduced.

 

[peters]

Genuinely perplexed by the “European” identity. What is it? Europe is a vastly diverse continent, with nations within it so unbelievably contrasting that I struggle to conceive what a European identity would encompass.

Are we saying it’s a western enlightenment identity centred on France, Germany and Italy? Or a pan-europeanism including the Muslim Bosniaks and Lappish peoples?

I’m interested to know what it is, really - I hear lots of people say they “feel European”, but that was in response to Britain’s departure from a trading bloc.

Surely if you have one parent from France and one from Italy, then you would be more European than French or Italian.

Following your methodology, can you have a Canadian? There's Canadians of British, Irish, French, German, Italian, Polish, Ukrainian etc descent, as well as those who descended from what's referred to as the First Nations.

What happens if you mix British, French, German, Turkish and Russian? You get Boris Johnson. Strangely, it's sometimes those who have the least British blood, that become the most patriotic.

Same for me, although technically my second because my area was included in the rehearsal done in 2019. Don't go holding your breath right now though - the Scottish census has been postponed to next year. Sensible, I think, given the various complications COVID has introduced.

I think for historians in the future having a census done during the pandemic will be more insightful.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I am European, belong to or identify with three different nations

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely if you have one parent from France and one from Italy, then you would be more European than French or Italian.

I'd say you were French-Italian, although it isn't up to me to decide how someone feels about themselves. What would a French-Italian person have in common with the Bosniaks or the Romanians or the Swedish? Not very much - how is "European" a national identity?

Following your methodology, can you have a Canadian? There's Canadians of British, Irish, French, German, Italian, Polish, Ukrainian etc descent, as well as those who descended from what's referred to as the First Nations.

That doesn't follow my methodology at all. Canada is a sovereign state, a country, and a nation, and someone who claims to be Canadian on the UK census is at least writing down a national identity. It would be more curious for them to decide they were "North American". One of the great things about British identity is it is one of the least exclusionary identities in the world; just about anyone can belong.

I suppose I see the point of writing down "European" as a national identity, as a way of marking discontent at leaving the European Union (which I gently remind people is a political trading bloc and not a country or nation!), but I'm not really a fan of people doing stuff like that on census forms. The "Jedi" craze that went around last time was a bit cringeworthy. There is no such thing as a "European" national identity in my mind; I'm genuinely asking British people who feel this way how they arrive at that identity for themselves so I can understand it. What is it exactly?

 

[MikeWh]

I'd say you were French-Italian, although it isn't up to me to decide how someone feels about themselves. What would a French-Italian person have in common with the Bosniaks or the Romanians or the Swedish? Not very much - how is "European" a national identity?

It's no more perverse than differentiating between English and British. And indeed you can select both, as well as other.

 

[GusB]

You can call yourself whatever you want, but if you're born in the UK, you are British, whether you like it or not.

I don't like it, to be honest, and I don't care what you think - I'm Scottish. I don't feel British at all, and I don't think I ever have done.

Same for me, although technically my second because my area was included in the rehearsal done in 2019. Don't go holding your breath right now though - the Scottish census has been postponed to next year. Sensible, I think, given the various complications COVID has introduced.

I think for historians in the future having a census done during the pandemic will be more insightful.

I was just thinking about that. I have viewed much census data in the course of tracing my family history. There may be obvious reasons for someone disappearing from a household: kids growing up and moving out; people getting married and, sadly; infant deaths. It will be interesting to see what future historians make of our current situation.

 

[102 fan]

I don't like it, to be honest, and I don't care what you think - I'm Scottish. I don't feel British at all, and I don't think I ever have done.


I was just thinking about that. I have viewed much census data in the course of tracing my family history. There may be obvious reasons for someone disappearing from a household: kids growing up and moving out; people getting married and, sadly; infant deaths. It will be interesting to see what future historians make of our current situation.

What does it say in your passport under 'Nationality'?

 

[AlterEgo]

What does it say in your passport under 'Nationality'?

Why does it matter? The census asks how *you* would describe it. If they just wanted what’s in your passport they wouldn’t be asking because they already know. People are perfectly entitled to feel Scottish if they’re Scottish.

 

[102 fan]

Why does it matter? The census asks how *you* would describe it. If they just wanted what’s in your passport they wouldn’t be asking because they already know. People are perfectly entitled to feel Scottish if they’re Scottish.

So even though I have no English ancestry, I could say I describe myself as English?

 

[AlterEgo]

So even though I have no English ancestry, I could say I describe myself as English?

Yes, if you wanted. That would be bonkers, of course.

For me, I have several identities "open" to me. British, English, "Anglo-Irish", and so on. I'd probably go with English on the census form. I am actually Irish, too; an Irish citizen with an Irish passport, yet I am not in any significant way "Irish".

 

[WelshBluebird]

Genuinely perplexed by the “European” identity. What is it? Europe is a vastly diverse continent, with nations within it so unbelievably contrasting that I struggle to conceive what a European identity would encompass.

Are we saying it’s a western enlightenment identity centred on France, Germany and Italy? Or a pan-europeanism including the Muslim Bosniaks and Lappish peoples?

I’m interested to know what it is, really - I hear lots of people say they “feel European”, but that was in response to Britain’s departure from a trading bloc.

Could you not say the same about "British" though, just on a smaller level?
You talk about diverse and contrasting nations - but I'd argue that also applies between England, Wales, Scotland and NI too, and then even more so when you drill down deeper to specific places within the constituent countries (If you compare say London and the Isles of silly, or Manchester and Anglesey etc etc, they are equally as diverse and unbelievably contrasting too).

 

[Westcountryman]

Not in 1941 though, for some reason that I can't quite recall.

The census details are available to the public after quite a few years. As far as I know, the latest one available is 1921. I don't know whether 1931 should be available yet, but unfortunately the documents were destroyed when the warehouse it was stored in in Hayes was hit by a wartime bomb.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just completed the form - no hang-ups about "Scottish", "British" or whatever. Now I've done it I'm just getting on with the rest of my life. There really is nothing to get hot and bothered about.

 

[A Challenge]

The census details are available to the public after quite a few years. As far as I know, the latest one available is 1921. I don't know whether 1931 should be available yet, but unfortunately the documents were destroyed when the warehouse it was stored in in Hayes was hit by a wartime bomb.

The 1921 details should be appearing in I think it is January next year, due to the 100 year rule, meaning that census records are kept secret for data protection reasons.

 

[SargeNpton]

Genuinely perplexed by the “European” identity. What is it? Europe is a vastly diverse continent, with nations within it so unbelievably contrasting that I struggle to conceive what a European identity would encompass.

Are we saying it’s a western enlightenment identity centred on France, Germany and Italy? Or a pan-europeanism including the Muslim Bosniaks and Lappish peoples?

I’m interested to know what it is, really - I hear lots of people say they “feel European”, but that was in response to Britain’s departure from a trading bloc.

It's for those who voted Remain in the referendum and have been a bit miffed about the result ever since.

 

[AlterEgo]

Could you not say the same about "British" though, just on a smaller level?
You talk about diverse and contrasting nations - but I'd argue that also applies between England, Wales, Scotland and NI too, and then even more so when you drill down deeper to specific places within the constituent countries (If you compare say London and the Isles of silly, or Manchester and Anglesey etc etc, they are equally as diverse and unbelievably contrasting too).

"British" is a national identity, whereas "European" isn't.

I haven't come across a convincing argument that Britain isn't a country or a nation but "Europe" is. The question asks for your national identity.

 

[peters]

including the Muslim Bosniaks and Lappish peoples

I'd say you were French-Italian, although it isn't up to me to decide how someone feels about themselves. What would a French-Italian person have in common with the Bosniaks or the Romanians or the Swedish? Not very much - how is "European" a national identity?

What if the person born to a French parent and an Italian parent, was born and raised in the UK, attended university in France and now lives in Italy? Are they not allowed to simply say they identify as European or multinational, opposed to having to go into specific details every time someone asks?

That doesn't follow my methodology at all. Canada is a sovereign state, a country, and a nation, and someone who claims to be Canadian on the UK census is at least writing down a national identity.

You bought up Muslim Bosniaks twice, that's an ethnic group not a nationality or national identity. Bosnian is a nationality but many Bosnians are Catholic or Orthodox Christian, I'm sure the church going Catholics in Bosnia & Herzegovina have a lot in common with the church going Catholics in the UK & Ireland. Canada is a country probably bigger than all European countries combined, which probably has more diversity than Europe. As soon as I posted my previous post I realised I really should have mentioned the Chinese and Korean ethnic groups in Canada as well.

The "Jedi" craze that went around last time was a bit cringeworthy.

The Jedi thing was disrespectful to people who follow religions. Anyone can prove Jedi was something created by a sc-fi writer, it's less easy to prove a God does or doesn't exist.

I am actually Irish, too; an Irish citizen with an Irish passport, yet I am not in any significant way "Irish".

It's for those who voted Remain in the referendum and have been a bit miffed about the result ever since.

Pre-Brexit it didn't usually matter if you had a British, Irish, Italian, German, Spanish or whatever passport. Some exceptions applied like entering a country in an active dispute with Britain might be easier if you didn't present a British passport. However, as far as border control with in the EU was concerned you had an EU passport and which country issued it wasn't really relevant. Now EU countries treat a British passport as a non-EU passport and even those who campaigned for Brexit see that as a huge disadvantage. Indeed, Farage's children have become German citizens to get around the problem. It's a strange situation that the most British people are the ones who benefited the most from British passports being EU passports.

I'm sure all the flaws with the way the EU referendum was managed have been debated to death on here before and don't need reigniting again.

 

[peters]

So even though I have no English ancestry, I could say I describe myself as English?

The late Tony Morris, who was the main presenter of the regional news programme for ITV in the North West described himself as more Northern than Southern, even though he was born and grew up on the South Coast. The reason being he'd spent most of his life living in Lancashire and working in Manchester. While Northern and Southern aren't national identities, you could apply similar logic to someone who has spent most of their adult life in Scotland, despite being from England, Wales or Northern Ireland initially and not having Scottish parents. If you've been living in Scotland and taking part in Scottish traditions for 40 years you're going to feel partly Scottish, even if your ancestry isn't Scottish.

 

[A Challenge]

"British" is a national identity, whereas "European" isn't.

I haven't come across a convincing argument that Britain isn't a country or a nation but "Europe" is. The question asks for your national identity.

There is no way that European identity is a national identity - you might identify with being European but unless you think that Europe should be one nation then you can't claim that as a national identity. However, home nations, which as the name suggests are national in the same way as the United Kingdom, Ireland, or France are (though despite Britain not containing NI, unionists in NI still identify as British, but I suppose there isn't an equivalent for the UK to British). It is clear that answering European is just a protest against Brexit, not minding that it doesn't actually make any sense as an answer.

 

[102 fan]

Yes, if you wanted. That would be bonkers, of course.

For me, I have several identities "open" to me. British, English, "Anglo-Irish", and so on. I'd probably go with English on the census form. I am actually Irish, too; an Irish citizen with an Irish passport, yet I am not in any significant way "Irish".

It makes a complete nonsense then, if it's only going on feeing and not fact.

 

[WelshBluebird]

There is no way that European identity is a national identity - you might identify with being European but unless you think that Europe should be one nation then you can't claim that as a national identity. However, home nations, which as the name suggests are national in the same way as the United Kingdom, Ireland, or France are (though despite Britain not containing NI, unionists in NI still identify as British, but I suppose there isn't an equivalent for the UK to British). It is clear that answering European is just a protest against Brexit, not minding that it doesn't actually make any sense as an answer.

It makes a complete nonsense then, if it's only going on feeing and not fact.

This is the same survey where a non zero number of people answer "Jedi" as a religion, and where people are free to chose if they think of themselves as say just Welsh, or Welsh and British, or just British etc. So yes, the census is as much about "feeling" as it is about "fact", and answers to some of its questions have never make a huge amount of sense as answers. And the basis of the questions being on "feeling" is even more clear when you look at some of the other questions about sexuality and gender identity - two things that people have varying labels for depending on their own individual feelings on those topics.

In terms of the European argument - Purple Orange below has put it way better than I could. But I will add that yes, for me part of my reasoning for putting that when I field in the census last night was a protest. But that wasn't all of the reason.

 

[Purple Orange]

I'd say you were French-Italian, although it isn't up to me to decide how someone feels about themselves. What would a French-Italian person have in common with the Bosniaks or the Romanians or the Swedish? Not very much - how is "European" a national identity?


That doesn't follow my methodology at all. Canada is a sovereign state, a country, and a nation, and someone who claims to be Canadian on the UK census is at least writing down a national identity. It would be more curious for them to decide they were "North American". One of the great things about British identity is it is one of the least exclusionary identities in the world; just about anyone can belong.

I suppose I see the point of writing down "European" as a national identity, as a way of marking discontent at leaving the European Union (which I gently remind people is a political trading bloc and not a country or nation!), but I'm not really a fan of people doing stuff like that on census forms. The "Jedi" craze that went around last time was a bit cringeworthy. There is no such thing as a "European" national identity in my mind; I'm genuinely asking British people who feel this way how they arrive at that identity for themselves so I can understand it. What is it exactly?

Why do you question the validity of a European identity? Do you question people who identify as African, Asian, Middle Eastern or Latino? All are regions that contain many varied countries.

I identify as European. I was born in a European country, have lived in a European country all my life, a European country that shares a lot in common with other European countries, with many shared cultures such as music, art, cuisine, science and even religions. Liberal outlooks and beliefs that are just as common between European countries as they are between different regions of the U.K. It’s also a basis for embracing the differences too, such as different languages. In fact the vast number of languages is an identity in itself. It’s not about the European Union, even though a common flag and parliament adds to that identity.

I view the opposition (or bewilderment) to the idea of a European identity to be the same as opposing (or bewilderment) to a British identity - four countries united, with many shared cultures.

One final point: the issue you are raising is nonsense. The question on nationality has “Other”. In order to declare your nationality as European, you have to state “Other” and then type what you think your nationality is. That is the same as anyone who wants to state they are Japanese, African or Martian. Nationality and Identity are two very different things.

 

[XAM2175]

I think for historians in the future having a census done during the pandemic will be more insightful.

I was just thinking about that. I have viewed much census data in the course of tracing my family history. There may be obvious reasons for someone disappearing from a household: kids growing up and moving out; people getting married and, sadly; infant deaths. It will be interesting to see what future historians make of our current situation.

My reference to COVID complications was related more to immediate practical considerations - the official justification given is that National Records of Scotland have experienced delays and complications in co-ordinating the logistics of conducting the census, and further that they believe that the pandemic will negatively affect response rates - especially from groups of people that may need additional assistance to respond online or request a physical form.

With regards to the value of the data in comparison to the rest of the UK I can see that there would be concerns about the postponement, yes. I wonder though if, on the other hand, there is a certain value in postponing - and thus "smoothing out" the immediate effects of the pandemic - when it comes to comparisons with previous census datasets.

It makes a complete nonsense then, if it's only going on feeing and not fact.

Does the question ask for one's "nationality" or "national identity"? If the former then strictly speaking answers such as "English", "Scottish", and "Welsh" are also invalid as at the present time they are not distinct nationalities. If the latter then such answers would be valid, just as much as - hypothetically - "Cornish" could also be.

 

[Purple Orange]

You can call yourself whatever you want, but if your born in the UK, you are British, whether you like it or not.

If you are born in the UK, you are also European. Is a person born in China, Asian? Is a person born in Nigeria, African?

 

[102 fan]

If you are born in the UK, you are also European. Is a person born in China, Asian? Is a person born in Nigeria, African?

A person born in China is Chinese, in Nigeria they're Nigerian. Would you describe yourself as a Northern Hemisphereon? It's geographically correct. Or a Worldian? What about a Solar Systemian??

Or is it because they don't have a union that we've left and that annoys you?

 

[Typhoon]

Seems relatively early this year - I thought first week of April was more usual, has there been a reason why?

Sorry if I've missed it, but I could not see a response to your question.

First weekend of April is Easter. I suppose the census date was planned ages ago and they anticipated that people might go away for Easter so complicating the completion. Just a guess!

 

[birchesgreen]

So even though I have no English ancestry, I could say I describe myself as English?

Well its the fashion these days to self-identify as you like.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you are born in the UK, you are also European. Is a person born in China, Asian? Is a person born in Nigeria, African?

How many of those are national identities? That’s what the question asks.
Nobody is denying your right to call yourself an African or a European, but those are not national identities.