challenged when splitting

[RAZOR1965]

On a journey earlier this year from Liverpool to London Euston, carrying tickets from Liv - Staff - MKC - Eus (splits) I was asked (around Rugby) if I was going to London. I replied yes and showed my MKC to EUS ticket. In front of other passengers he said 'you're not really supposed to do this'. When I asked why he said 'because you're getting around paying the full fair (duh!!!).

Now, he didn't tell me to get off or pay another fare so I didn't say much. My question is, am I within my rights to embarrass him next time and tell him to grow up and get on with his job, Move along the carriage and check somebody else's ticket.

Either I'm legal or I'm not. Surely its not even a grey area is it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
oh, by the way. The train was 05:27 Lime st to Euston. Called at all of my 'slitting points'.

 

[VideozVideoz]

That's rubbish, you're well within your legal rights to do that! Yes you may well be getting away with a cheaper fare but the tickets are valid so he can't touch you

 

[wintonian]

On a journey earlier this year from Liverpool to London Euston, carrying tickets from Liv - Staff - MKC - Eus (splits) I was asked (around Rugby) if I was going to London. I replied yes and showed my MKC to EUS ticket. In front of other passengers he said 'you're not really supposed to do this'. When I asked why he said 'because you're getting around paying the full fair (duh!!!).

If we went by this then everyone with an off-peak ticket shouldn't buy one as they also 'getting away' with paying the full fare.

 

[yorkie]

This was already discussed here. I do not think there is anything else to add to that.

I would strongly advise against such a confrontation.

I would advise one of two things:

1) Do not engage in a discussion, and write to VT customer services (as already advised). I am happy to proof read. VT customer services do read this forum but are unable to take it forward unless you contact them directly (if it happens again, too late if you didn't complain last time!).

or

2) If you wish to have a discussion with the guard, can I suggest something more constructive? When he says you are "not supposed to do this", simply say something like "Oh, I was informed that Condition 19 of the Conditions of Carriage says I can do this. Can you check?" he will either check, and admit he's wrong, or he won't check, in which case, if you have a laptop computer with you, you can look it up and show him (or, failing that, perhaps bring a printed copy if you think you will encounter this guard on a particular service), or failing all that offer to visit the ticket office with the TM at Euston to look it up.

I've got staff to look things up a few times, and it does work (and can work better than you showing them). Sometimes they're apologetic, sometimes they slam the manual shut and don't check any further tickets, and sometimes they give an excuse like "they've changed the rules".

If you tell him to "grow up and get on with your job" he could claim you are being "abusive" and take the matter further. Not that I'd agree with that, but unfortunately that sort of thing can happen. I've heard of an occasion where a member of staff was wrong, and swore at a customer, the customer then swore back, and realised that he couldn't take the complaint further because the staff member would simply say the customer was being abusive and deny any wrongdoing. I would advise avoiding the situation escalating into something like that!

 

[RAZOR1965]

Whoops, forgot I'd posted it before. Terribly sorry chaps.

 

[185]

Should present all portions at the first ticket check.

If he tells you you're not supposed to do that, you should tell him that giving information contrary to ATOCs Conditions of Carriage is wrong and he's not supposed to do that

 

[furryfeet]

Should present all portions at the first ticket check.

Based on comments in other threads, I would not. I would only present each ticket on the relevant portion of the journey. This may especially comes to pass if Mrs. Villiers gives in to ATOC and says that "splitting is not allowed" and everyone ends up in a situation where one has to "put a toe on the platform" at the splitting stop for it work.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I have nothing to add to the question of validity of the tickets - its now been adequately covered twice already, but I will respond to this question:

My question is, am I within my rights to embarrass him next time and tell him to grow up and get on with his job, Move along the carriage and check somebody else's ticket.

That is not, not even remotely, an appropriate response.
What are the likely outcomes? None that are constructive or beneficial.
The Guard, as anyone else in any customer-facing role, will be used to all sorts of attempts to be smart, all sorts of excuses and all sorts of stupid behaviour. They'll deal with it with a restrained contempt, so restrained that they maybe show a simile in the interests of de-fusing any more rudeness, but its unlikely to be a sincere smile.

Yorkie's suggested response is very good and I recommend taking that calm, factual and constructive approach. But there are other constructive ways to deal with the situation too - it might always be useful to establish in the first few words whether the Guard genuinely didn't know that there was a Condition permitting travel on two adjoining tickets, in which case a response along the lines of "I'm sorry that its me that has to tell you this, but they actually put a special clause in the Conditions which allows this (though they probably had other reasons in mind when it was being written). If you're interested, I could find it for you in the Conditions of Travel."
(That would be horribly patronising to somone who DID know the Conditions but had been led to believe that your combination of tickets were dis-allowed).

If they did know that adjoining tickets were covered but had some understanding from somewhere that yours shouldn't be permitted, then you could be sympathetic to that: "I don't know if I can help you here, you see this combination of tickets conforms to the requirements of Section 19 so I'm interested to know what you've heard that suggests that these tickets are not valid. Is it just because they allow travel for a lower price than one through ticket would?"

Whatever the line of discussion you choose, there's really nothing to be gained by being so rude as you suggest. Is that the way people speak to you in your daily work? You have my sympathy if it is, it must get quite tiring at times.

 

[steffo]

Was coming back from Manchester to Birmingham with my son last March. Showed the CC guard my split ticket at Stoke. He said 'that's the way to do it'!!!!

 

[WestCoast]

Was coming back from Manchester to Birmingham with my son last March. Showed the CC guard my split ticket at Stoke. He said 'that's the way to do it'!!!!

Yeah, I have bought split tickets from Northern rail guards (from an unstaffed station, of course), and a number of times they've commented on how I'm 'doing it the right way".

 

[Jeremy B]

Based on comments in other threads, I would not. I would only present each ticket on the relevant portion of the journey. This may especially comes to pass if Mrs. Villiers gives in to ATOC and says that "splitting is not allowed" and everyone ends up in a situation where one has to "put a toe on the platform" at the splitting stop for it work.

I recall someone getting questioned over this. The guard remembered him having a ticket to Peterborough but was still on the train afterwards. The passenger pulled out another ticket presumably from Peterborough onwards but it certainly conveyed an impression of shiftiness.

 

[RJ]

I do this on Intercity journeys using any of the Condition 19 rules and I've had guards threatening to have me detrained, withdraw my Priv and do a prosecution report for intentional fare evasion. I wouldn't worry too much about a guard who "lets you off" as let's face it, some guards will never be 100% up on the rules of travel, regardless of the amount of training/retraining undertaken.

 

[Ze Random One]

I can understand guards not being aware of all of the minutiae of ticketing policy and rules and restrictions. However, I would expect a guard to know, and be regularly tested, on the conditions of carriage, as they protect both the customer, and, importantly, their employer.

 

[Flamingo]

Should present all portions at the first ticket check.

Based on comments in other threads, I would not. I would only present each ticket on the relevant portion of the journey. This may especially comes to pass if Mrs. Villiers gives in to ATOC and says that "splitting is not allowed" and everyone ends up in a situation where one has to "put a toe on the platform" at the splitting stop for it work.

Present them all at once, it saves the guard time and hassle, and saves any potentially embarrassing confrontations of the "You only had a ticket to X" variety when the guard remembers them. Future conditions that may not come to pass are irrelevant.

 

[yorkie]

I've always thought it makes sense to show all the tickets, but some guards don't want to know, and I've even seen people be borderline told off for showing tickets that did not interest the guard! But then you get guards who are very unhappy at being drip-fed tickets at a time, so it's no wonder some passengers get rather confused. Perhaps the conflicting messages from different guards puts some people off "splitting"?

I do not show the entire combination if I expect a crew change, as in general the guard will want to see all the tickets for the part of the train he/she is working but not be interested in any tickets beyond that (unless of course there is a delay and then the entire combination may be rather relevant!), of course many passengers won't have a clue where crew changes take place!

 

[sheff1]

I've always thought it makes sense to show all the tickets, but some guards don't want to know, and I've even seen people be borderline told off for showing tickets that did not interest the guard!

I have said it before and will say it again. After being rudely reprimanded for showing more than one ticket, I now only ever show the ticket for the section of journey during which the inspection takes place.

 

[bb21]

I have said it before and will say it again. After being rudely reprimanded for showing more than one ticket, I now only ever show the ticket for the section of journey during which the inspection takes place.

What are you going to do when next time you're rudely reprimanded for showing one ticket at a time?

Just curious.

 

[sheff1]

What are you going to do when next time you're rudely reprimanded for showing one ticket at a time?

Just curious.

Well I have never been reprimanded for showing a ticket valid for the section of journey I have been on. I don't remember a guard coming back after the split station to ask for another ticket either.

If a guard were to come back to me specifically (rather than 'any tickets from XXX'). I would probably show all the tickets, if there were more than the two, and explain that I had been previously advised to just show the ticket relevant at the time.

If it ever happens I will let you know.

 

[bnm]

Whatever you chose to show, be it the one ticket for the portion of the journey you are currently on, or both (or even multiple) tickets for the entire journey, then you should have nothing to fear. As long as you have valid tickets for your entire journey, it matters not one bit.

As long as you are complying with the NRCoC for the entirety of your journey and show the relevant tickets on demand, then on board staff should have no reason to challenge you.

 

[RAZOR1965]

DAVENEWCASTLE, you are quite right, my response would be inappropriate and no, I'm not used to people talking to me like that either. Which was why I was surprised when the guard was trying to embarrass me in front of lots of passengers.

My point was, I will match his rudeness so that I don't look like a 'fare dodger' who has been 'let off', in a 'don't do that again' type of way.

 

[Oswyntail]

...
My point was, I will match his rudeness so that I don't look like a 'fare dodger' who has been 'let off', in a 'don't do that again' type of way.

That is only likely to provoke an escalation, though. Keep your side of the exchange "adult" and rational, factual, and it will usually draw his responses to the same rational level, away from the "parental" controlling he is trying on.

 

[bb21]

DAVENEWCASTLE, you are quite right, my response would be inappropriate and no, I'm not used to people talking to me like that either. Which was why I was surprised when the guard was trying to embarrass me in front of lots of passengers.

My point was, I will match his rudeness so that I don't look like a 'fare dodger' who has been 'let off', in a 'don't do that again' type of way.

There is no point getting drawn to the same level as the other person. Who cares what other passengers think, as long as you're certain that your tickets are valid. It isn't worth the hassle and the worry. Do you really think it would resolve the issue there and then by giving that type of response? Put yourself in the guard's position, what would you do if you get that sort of reaction from a punter?

You're far more likely to get a reasonable response sorting it out with Customer Services later on.

 

[AlterEgo]

Oh brilliant.

I must remember that if someone is rude to me, I should be unspeakably rude back. Then that solves everything.

Or not.

:roll:

Years of being as polite and civil as possible to everyone (including rude agents of companies) has worked for me.

Honestly, is this how society is going?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

DAVENEWCASTLE, you are quite right, my response would be inappropriate . . . . .

My point was, I will match his rudeness so that I don't look like a 'fare dodger' who has been 'let off', in a 'don't do that again' type of way.

Thanks for responding, I understand your thinking and was never in any doubt why you asked the question.

Others have replied already with exactly the same sentiment that I would have wanted to express. When we are humiliated by a situation, or find someone's behaviour unpleasant, we should never take the bait of behaving in the same way. Never. It demeans us further to adopt the very attitude that we despised in others.

I'll have to remain firm in my belief that we always remain above any attempt to humiliate anyone else.