Change of route excess with different ticket types

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IrishDave

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I have a theoretical question (in that I'm not imminently intending on using this for actually travelling, but might do so in the future) about change-of-route excesses. First of all, am I right in saying that if you have a ticket from A to B route via X, and you want to excess it to route via Y, and the same ticket type exists, you get charged half the difference in fares for excessing the ticket in one direction? Is that correct? Does it matter whether the portion you're excessing is the outward or the return?

So my question is, what is the correct procedure for excessing a ticket to a different route when the corresponding ticket type doesn't exist for the other route?

The example I was looking at was Sheffield-Blackburn, which has a via Burnley and a via Stockport route. Say I wanted a day return to go out via Burnley and back via Stockport; then presumably the correct procedure is to buy a return via Burnley and excess the return to via Stockport. However, since the Burnley route has an SDR but the Stockport route doesn't, what does it get excessed to? An SVR (which is more reasonable than it sounds given that it's restriction 8A)? An SOR? Or should I have bought an SOR in the first place (even though I wanted a day return)?

(On a related note, looking up Sheffield-Blackburn in the routeing guide gives maps MS+MH or YL+NC, none of which appear to contain Burnley...!)

Any and all advice appreciated.
 
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IrishDave

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Generally change of route excesses aren't available (eg. you can't excess a Kings Cross - Northallerton ticket to Hull instead), I'm presuming that they might be for the scenario you describe.

I think it would be the difference between the full appropriate fare on the outward journey, and half the difference on the return one.
Sorry, perhaps I was unclear: I didn't mean changing the origin or destination, I mean an excess to change the route (i.e. the "via") on the ticket from, in this case, via Burnley (which is cheaper) to via Stockport (which is more expensive). The question is, what is the appropriate fare if the ticket type I buy doesn't exist for the other flow (is flow the correct word?)?

Also, if I understand you correctly, you can't just excess the outward portion?
 

tony_mac

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Also, if I understand you correctly, you can't just excess the outward portion?
You can - this is the correct procedure if you want to take the more expensive route on the outward journey, and a cheaper route on the return.
 

IrishDave

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This might go some way to answering your first question.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46857

Burnley is not a routeing point, hence it won't appear on any of the maps.
Have you read the instructions for the routeing guide?
Thanks for the link. Yes, I've read the instructions for the routeing guide many times, it still gives me headaches now and again... I've never come across any instructions on how to deal with tickets that say "via X" on them, though. Are you meant to determine all the permitted routes from A to B, and then filter out the ones which don't go via X, or are you meant to determine the routes from A to X, and X to B?

If it is (as I have been assuming) the former: it does not appear possible to actually use the line between Halifax and Blackburn on a Sheffield-Blackburn ticket, as you can't get from Leeds to Halifax (on those maps, anyway), unless I'm reading it wrong?

---

Edit: So, if I'm reading the other thread correctly, for my example above I should be sold a Sheffield-Blackburn route Burnley SDR at £14.45, and excessed on the return to an Off-Peak Return via Stockport, which costs £15.60, thus necessitating my paying half the difference, which is half of £1.15, which is 62.5p? (should have said I have a 16-25 railcard...)
 

hairyhandedfool

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....So my question is, what is the correct procedure for excessing a ticket to a different route when the corresponding ticket type doesn't exist for the other route?....

....However, since the Burnley route has an SDR but the Stockport route doesn't, what does it get excessed to? An SVR (which is more reasonable than it sounds given that it's restriction 8A)? An SOR? Or should I have bought an SOR in the first place (even though I wanted a day return)?....
You use the most suitable ticket(s) for the journey being made.
 

yorkie

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I have a theoretical question
I prefer to deal with real examples (even if you are not doing the journey, but actual place names!)
(in that I'm not imminently intending on using this for actually travelling, but might do so in the future) about change-of-route excesses. First of all, am I right in saying that if you have a ticket from A to B route via X, and you want to excess it to route via Y, and the same ticket type exists, you get charged half the difference in fares for excessing the ticket in one direction? Is that correct? Does it matter whether the portion you're excessing is the outward or the return?
Yes that is correct, and no, the procedure is the same for either.



The Manual said:
A customer holds an Anytime Single from Hereford to Alton routed “not via London”. The customer wishes to travel via London on a day at a time when a Super Off-Peak Single is valid. If the customer does not wish to break their journey, they should be charged the difference between the fare already paid: Anytime Single (£38.50p) and the Super Off-Peak Single (£43). The Excess fare is £5·50. Note: This example is not necessarily the current fare.
So my question is, what is the correct procedure for excessing a ticket to a different route when the corresponding ticket type doesn't exist for the other route?
Not sure what you mean, the excess is to the appropriate fare in all cases, for a Change of Route Excess.
The example I was looking at was Sheffield-Blackburn, which has a via Burnley and a via Stockport route. Say I wanted a day return to go out via Burnley and back via Stockport; then presumably the correct procedure is to buy a return via Burnley and excess the return to via Stockport. However, since the Burnley route has an SDR but the Stockport route doesn't, what does it get excessed to? An SVR (which is more reasonable than it sounds given that it's restriction 8A)? An SOR? Or should I have bought an SOR in the first place (even though I wanted a day return)?
Ah, a real example, that's better :)

You buy the cheaper ticket, in this case, Sheffield-Blackburn SDR £21.90. The excess via Stockport for one portion is 85p, providing the restrictions applicable to the Off Peak Return SVR (£23.60) suits your needs.

(Edit: The fares above are without a Railcard. With a Railcard the fares are £14.45 via Burnley, £15.60 via Stockport, the full difference is therefore £1.15 so you'd be charged half of that - subject to rounding - for an excess on one portion only, so between 60p and 65p, occasionally I have heard of excesses being made in odd numbers, but they should be rounded (down I think) to the nearest 5p)

In this case the restrictions are:

Restriction : 8A
Available as listed below on
any day.

OUTWARD TRAVEL
Valid on any train.

Break of journey is not
permitted except to change
trains at an intermediate
station or to access station
facilities.

RETURN TRAVEL
Valid on any train.

As you propose excessing your ticket to the SVR routed via Stockport on the return portion, there is no restriction. In this case both portions are unrestricted. However for other flows, the restrictions may well be completely different. The restriction of the ticket you are excessing to applies for the relevant portion(s).

(On a related note, looking up Sheffield-Blackburn in the routeing guide gives maps MS+MH or YL+NC, none of which appear to contain Burnley...!)

Any and all advice appreciated.
Where a route specific fare exists, for a route that is not normally a permitted route, then it is of course a permitted route when holding a ticket routed via that location. Additionally, any higher priced tickets (where they exist) are also valid via that location, as are Any Permitted tickets (again where they exist).

However in this particular case, the maps do show the route via Burnley.

Valid Routes from Blackburn [BBN] to Sheffield [SHF]:

  1. Direct trains from Blackburn to Sheffield (in this case there aren't any)
  2. Shortest Route: 59.25 miles (subject to any errors in the NRT; this may not be accurate)
    • Blackburn
    • Darwen
    • Entwistle
    • Bromley Cross (Lancs)
    • Hall-i-th-Wood
    • Bolton
    • Manchester Piccadilly
    • Hazel Grove
    • Chinley
    • Edale
    • Hope (Derbyshire)
    • Bamford
    • Hathersage
    • Grindleford
    • Dore & Totley
    • Sheffield
  3. Mapped Routes (in this cases origin & destination are both Routeing Points):
    Blackburn - SHEFFIELD GROUP:
Maps NC + YL should permit travel via Burnley. Burnley is located between Blackburn & Halifax. However it appears there is an error and the maps do not connect! Instead, somewhat bizarrely, the maps do permit travel via Preston-Lancaster-Leeds-Sheffield. This is clearly an error with the maps.

Burnley is not a Routeing Point and is therefore not shown on the maps (as already identified by tony_mac)

In some cases there are route specific fares where there are no permitted routes. In this case, of course tickets with that route are valid, and additionally tickets routed Any Permitted and also any higher priced route specific fare, are also valid (where applicable).
 
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tony_mac

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Ok, I'm just checking that you haven't jumped straight to the maps - some people do that!

I can see the confusion - it looks like the routeing guide is wrong.

I think that YL+NC is probably meant to allow via Halifax and Leeds, but it doesn't - instead it only allows via Lancaster, Hellifield and Leeds, which is silly!

As the 'route Burnley' appears to be impossible, I guess you must come to the conclusion that you take a permitted route to Burnley, then one from Burnley. (Or just guess what you think the routeing guide is supposed to say).

I think there are other cases where a route 'via' point is not on a permitted route - doubling back through London, for example, so this seems like the most reasonable interpretation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Maps NC + YL do permit travel via Burnley. Burnley is located between Blackburn & Halifax.
You can't go via Halifax on those maps, Halifax is on the edge of NC, but not on YL.
 

yorkie

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...I guess you must come to the conclusion that you take a permitted route to Burnley, then one from Burnley...
That is the only logical conclusion. A similar situation applies when "LONDON" appears in the Routeing Tables (for which specific instructions are given to permit the routes from origin to London, and London to destination).

You can't go via Halifax on those maps, Halifax is on the edge of NC, but not on YL.
There's a huge error here, the only way those maps connect appears to be going via Preston, Lancaster and Leeds!
 

IrishDave

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First of all, many thanks for all your replies, particularly for Yorkie's comprehensive answer.

You buy the cheaper ticket, in this case, Sheffield-Blackburn SDR £21.90. The excess via Stockport for one portion is 85p, providing the restrictions applicable to the Off Peak Return SVR (£23.60) suits your needs.

(Edit: The fares above are without a Railcard. With a Railcard the fares are £14.45 via Burnley, £15.60 via Stockport, the full difference is therefore £1.15 so you'd be charged half of that - subject to rounding - for an excess on one portion only, so between 60p and 65p, occasionally I have heard of excesses being made in odd numbers, but they should be rounded (down I think) to the nearest 5p)

In this case the restrictions are [8A text snipped]

As you propose excessing your ticket to the SVR routed via Stockport on the return portion, there is no restriction. In this case both portions are unrestricted. However for other flows, the restrictions may well be completely different. The restriction of the ticket you are excessing to applies for the relevant portion(s).
Lovely. That's the first time in a while that railway ticketing has actually made sense! :D

Maps NC + YL should permit travel via Burnley. Burnley is located between Blackburn & Halifax. However it appears there is an error and the maps do not connect! Instead, somewhat bizarrely, the maps do permit travel via Preston-Lancaster-Leeds-Sheffield. This is clearly an error with the maps.
Yes, I suspected that might be a mistake. What does one do in these circumstances then? Throw myself upon the mercy of Northern Rail guards? The "obvious" route via Burnley is Sheffield-Leeds-Burnley-Blackburn, but I suspect the shortest route via Burnley is Sheffield-Huddersfield-Halifax-Burnley-Blackburn; is the via Burnley ticket (intended to be) valid via either of those routes?

(Also, if I read easement 30075 correctly - "Journeys routed (Route Stockport) may travel via Leeds" - I believe the round-the-houses route of Sheffield-Leeds-Hellifield-Lancaster-Preston-Blackburn is in fact valid on a via Stockport ticket?!)

In some cases there are route specific fares where there are no permitted routes. In this case, of course tickets with that route are valid, and additionally tickets routed Any Permitted and also any higher priced route specific fare, are also valid (where applicable).
In such circumstances how does one determine what route(s) such tickets are valid on (and can you give an example that isn't due to an obvious error in the maps)?

Thanks again for all your help. :)
 

yorkie

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Yes, I suspected that might be a mistake. What does one do in these circumstances then? Throw myself upon the mercy of Northern Rail guards? The "obvious" route via Burnley is Sheffield-Leeds-Burnley-Blackburn, but I suspect the shortest route via Burnley is Sheffield-Huddersfield-Halifax-Burnley-Blackburn; is the via Burnley ticket (intended to be) valid via either of those routes?
The shortest route via Burnley has to be valid.

Arguably the permitted routes for a Burnley-Sheffield (Rte Halifax) ticket, plus the permitted routes for a Burnley-Blackburn tickets, must surely overall be the permitted routes for a Burnley-Sheffield ticket. No other interpretation makes sense to me.

However, feel free to write to ATOC and ask them. They hate hypothetical questions but they should answer real questions, such as this one. You could also write to Northern rail as they are the provider of the majority of trains along the routes that you would use.
(Also, if I read easement 30075 correctly - "Journeys routed (Route Stockport) may travel via Leeds" - I believe the round-the-houses route of Sheffield-Leeds-Hellifield-Lancaster-Preston-Blackburn is in fact valid on a via Stockport ticket?!)
Route Stockport costs more than Route Burnley, therefore it is also permitted on all the routes that a Route Burnley is valid on.


In such circumstances how does one determine what route(s) such tickets are valid on (and can you give an example that isn't due to an obvious error in the maps)?
I can only suggest tony_mac's suggestion is the only logical, sensible interpretation. However I suggest asking ATOC for their view on this particular ticket.
Thanks again for all your help. :)
You're welcome :)
 

IrishDave

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However, feel free to write to ATOC and ask them. They hate hypothetical questions but they should answer real questions, such as this one. You could also write to Northern rail as they are the provider of the majority of trains along the routes that you would use.
That's a good idea, I'll write to ATOC - is emailing them on the address at the bottom of their contact us page the best way?

Route Stockport costs more than Route Burnley, therefore it is also permitted on all the routes that a Route Burnley is valid on.
The problem is that the ridiculous Sheffield-Leeds-Hellifield-Lancaster-Preston-Blackburn route doesn't pass through either Stockport or Burnley, so in the absence of easement 30075 it isn't valid on either ticket (though it would, I guess, be valid on an Any Permitted if such a ticket existed on Sheffield-Blackburn?).

Also, is it that the Route Stockport ticket is actually valid on all the routes via Burnley? Or is it just that it is accepted, even though it technically isn't valid, so that staff don't have to bother issuing a change-of-route excess coupon at a cost of £0.00?
 

hairyhandedfool

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....Arguably the permitted routes for a Burnley-Sheffield (Rte Halifax) ticket, plus the permitted routes for a Burnley-Blackburn tickets, must surely overall be the permitted routes for a Burnley-Sheffield ticket. No other interpretation makes sense to me....
The Routeing Guide does say "The Routeing Guide may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description", it doesn't really explain how to do that though.
 

IrishDave

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After three weeks, ATOC have got back to me and confirmed that, in this case, to determine the permitted routes on a Sheffield-Blackburn ticket routed "via Burnley" one should look up the routes from Sheffield to Burnley and from Burnley to Blackburn:

ATOC said:
Thank you for your enquiry. My apologies for the lateness of reply but we have been waiting for clarification from industry colleagues.

The Routeing Guide lists the permitted routes for a particular flow. The actual routes that the customer can use, is sometimes limited by the route shown on the ticket, which may stipulate that the journey must go via a particular location. In some cases however, the opposite applies and the particular “via” location is outside the range of the usual permitted routes and travel via that location would not normally have been permitted. But because a flow specifically routed via that location has been priced by the Train Company , travel is permitted via that location. It appears that this is the case for Sheffield – Blackburn, via Burnley.

In this instance you are correct and you should look up the permitted routes for Sheffield-Burnley and Burnley-Blackburn.
Clearly the advice applies to any case where you have a ticket from A to B routed via C, but where there are no permitted routes via C. But it's not clear if this would apply in other cases; what if there were some permitted routes from A to B which go via C, but looking up A to C and C to B yields other routes as well? (I don't have access to the fares manual at the moment in order to find a specific example, if one exists...)
 

Indigo2

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ATOC said:
In this instance you are correct and you should look up the permitted routes for Sheffield-Burnley and Burnley-Blackburn.
Am I mistaken, or is it fantastic news to get that clarification? I think that's an answer people have been trying to get out of ATOC for years!
 

MikeWh

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Am I mistaken, or is it fantastic news to get that clarification? I think that's an answer people have been trying to get out of ATOC for years!
I think so!:D

Anyone want to try asking what the permitted routes between an out-boundary station and boundary zone-x are?
 

bb21

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Anyone want to try asking what the permitted routes between an out-boundary station and boundary zone-x are?
... or how to calculate the shortest distance on a boundary zone ticket?
 

John @ home

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it's not clear if this would apply in other cases; what if there were some permitted routes from A to B which go via C, but looking up A to C and C to B yields other routes as well? (I don't have access to the fares manual at the moment in order to find a specific example, if one exists...)
Example:

Edinburgh - Croydon Stations route ✠ Any Permitted is valid via Reading, but not via Staines.

The combination of tickets
  • Edinburgh - Reading Stations route Not Via London, and
  • Reading Stations - Croydon Stations route ✠ Any Permitted
is valid via Reading and Staines.
 

IrishDave

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Example:

Edinburgh - Croydon Stations route ✠ Any Permitted is valid via Reading, but not via Staines.

The combination of tickets
  • Edinburgh - Reading Stations route Not Via London, and
  • Reading Stations - Croydon Stations route ✠ Any Permitted
is valid via Reading and Staines.
That's not quite what I had in mind - I was looking for something with an explicit "via C" ticket (e.g., if Edinburgh-Croydon were route via Reading your example would be what I was looking for). I can take a look at the Fares Manual tomorrow when I'm home again.
 
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