Channel Tunnel Problem

[Mike Redding]

Hi, i'm suprised that no one has mentioned this yet, the Breaking News account on twitter has tonight posted these "tweets"

www.twitter.com/breakingnews

Eurostar train from Brussels to London stuck in Channel Tunnel - Sky News

Update: British transport service confirms 'incident' in Channel Tunnel - msnbc.com

Three Eurostar trains stuck in Channel Tunnel between France, England; 'it's a very bad situation' - BNO News

Eurostar warns of many train cancellations Saturday after #chunnel logjam - BNO News

Update: Eurotunnel says Channel Tunnel arrivals closed in France, no tickets being sold in U.K. - msnbc.com

Update: Eurotunnel says passenger vehicle trains 'indefinitely suspended' - @breakingnews

Does anyone know what's happening?

 

[IanXC]

Three Eurostar trains stuck in Channel Tunnel
(AFP) – 46 minutes ago
LONDON — Three Eurostar passenger trains were stuck in the rail tunnel between Britain and continental Europe, a spokesman for the operator said Saturday.
The trains broke down due to the cold weather snap affecting the region. The difference in temperature between the chilly open air and the warm tunnel under the English Channel caused the trains to break down.
"Because of the weather, the snow and the extreme cold, we have severe problems with our trains," a Eurostar spokesman told AFP.
"At the moment we have three trains stuck in the tunnel and we are trying to get them out with a rescue locomotive."
The three trains, all from Paris to London, were in the same tunnel. Two further trains from Brussels and Paris heading for the tunnel had turned back, the spokesman said.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hh_i1fEuxdwm4azl2WCa5QzoVn5A

 

[EM2]

19.34 arrival pulled into St Pancras at 21.54. No further arrivals between then and 23.00.
Services are now suspended.

 

[Lampshade]

Has Eurostar never encountered the cold before? :???:

 

[jon0844]

It does surprise me how they couldn't evacuate all of the trains quickly.. or why they chose not to (as it wasn't an emergency in that way).

Surely they could have run a train or two in from the English side, then moved people over via the service tunnel. The trains were designed to accommodate all the people in just half the train - so one train gets twice the number of people back to London? Okay, not in any sort of comfort - but it gets you back relatively quickly and at the other end you give everyone a voucher for another return journey free of charge.

Job done.

Or something close to that - not keeping people on a train for 14 hours!

That said, someone on the BBC reported that there were fights breaking out - and that's just uncalled for by passengers. The lights were out at some points (but there must be emergency lights so it wouldn't have been pitch black) and everyone had a seat, and the toilets presumably still worked - so it wasn't life threatening.

Perhaps they could have got emergency supplies of water to the trains via the service tunnel?

Finally, the question must be asked; has this highlighted a major design flaw in the trains?

 

[MrC]

Finally, the question must be asked; has this highlighted a major design flaw in the trains?

It does seem a bit weird. I suppose one theory would be that, due to the low temps in N. France, the external components of the trains were well below freezing point and, on entering the (relatively ) warm and humid tunnel environment, they iced up due to water vapour condensing and freezing.

If this affected traction equipment (eg inside motors, control gear etc) then I suppose you could get a complete electrical breakdown.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If this affected traction equipment (eg inside motors, control gear etc) then I suppose you could get a complete electrical breakdown.

And it's a known problem:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/feb/01/transport.world

(taken from a post on uk.r)

 

[Mojo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8421875.stm

If they think Eurostar's treatment of them was bad then maybe they should fly next time and if there were any problems there it would be many times worse!

 

[EM2]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8421875.stm

If they think Eurostar's treatment of them was bad then maybe they should fly next time and if there were any problems there it would be many times worse!

I do sometimes think that customers expect miracles. You're in a train, in a tunnel, under the bottom of the sea, if they can get food to you, then they'd be able to get you out!

 

[David Pemberton]

A lack of information for/communication with the passengers seems to have been a recurring theme with those who have been interviewed. People will put up with an awful lot, even become understanding and helpful, if they know what is happening to them.

I don't think that general passenger information has improved very much in the past twenty years. Not in comparision with the information we are now able to get in most other parts of our lives.

Just as an aside the cold weather sent the passenger information system a bit mad at Sheffield yesterday morning. I heard that the SHF-NOT wouldn't call at Wakefield, Barnsley or Meadowhall (not that it normally would/could). And that one of the CrossCountry services wouldn't convey smoking accomodation....

Overall it seems to have been a PR disaster for Eurostar - it took them ages to put up anyone to talk to the media, by which time the passengers had plenty of time to say what they thought of the situation.

 

[jbou]

I was happily not involved in the incident, but I do have some comments to make.

It seems to me extraordinary that one tunnel is operated with five trains in it at the same time. Considering that it only takes a Eurostar train 20 minutes to go through at normal speed, there is no need to have more than 2 trains in the tunnel at the same time. That way, both trains could be reached by locomotives and pulled out in case of train failure. With 5 trains in the tunnel, the process will take much longer. Goodness knows what they would do in a fire.

If it takes 12 hours to get some people out of the tunnel in breakdown then either: 1. if the tunnel authorities have the ability to get people out quicker, then why didn't they bother in this case and 2. if they don't have the capacity to get people out quicker then what on earth would they do in a fire situation?

It is worth remembering, and I think news organisations should be reporting this, that this is far from the first incident of breakdown where passengers have been given little information and left for hours: see http://www.metro.co.uk/news/727732-6-hr-tunnel-hell-as-train-breaks-down for a report from just this summer.

It is very frustrating when authorities don't explain what the problems they are facing are. The tunnel was built with many safety features (for example, the service tunnel), but it seems to me that it is operated in a way that makes passengers question just how safe it is.

 

[Tom B]

A lack of information for/communication with the passengers seems to have been a recurring theme with those who have been interviewed. People will put up with an awful lot, even become understanding and helpful, if they know what is happening to them.

I don't think that general passenger information has improved very much in the past twenty years. Not in comparision with the information we are now able to get in most other parts of our lives.

Rail companies seem to like to do the "let's give passengers information" rubric. Unfortunately, this tends to be a series of generic announcements played repeatedly, with very little real information and staff disappearing to the tea hut the moment anything goes wrong. Vauge messages aren't helpful, either - it would be useful to give precise information and be honest.

 

[jon0844]

If it was quite clear people would be kept on the trains for hours, and then pushed out by a diesel engine or hooked up to another train, I see no reason for not being able to deliver bottles of water or light snacks to hand out.

It's not like they were literally stranded in the middle of nowhere - it was just a logistical problem that Eurostar appears to have managed very badly.

And the lady representing Eurostar earlier today was smiling and thinking it was all quite funny when explaining the problem. She may have been nervous, but it didn't look good. It came over as 'yeah, it was pretty bad - but can you believe it's just down to such a simple problem? Still, it's over now and it wasn't our fault - damn weather'.

No, the weather wasn't their fault - but the way they reacted to it definitely was.

 

[generalvegitable]

idiots, they could have just sent a loco in as soon as they heard of the problem and got some of the passengers out within 1 to 1.5 hours not 12!

 

[SWT Driver]

So what if the brakes system was malfunctioning & they were locked solid?

The E* are probably the worlds most complex train, it's not just a case of popping out & isolating a few valves!

 

[gwr2006]

Just seen on the BBc News a Eurostar set being hauled by two locomotives through the snow-covered Kent countryside and all the way to St Pancras. Wasn't a type of locomotive we normnally see in this country.

Does anyone know what they were and wjhere they came form? I guess because HS1 is a dedicated line they don't have to be TOPS-registered these days. Anyone know?

 

[Old Timer]

Here is a photograph of them at St Pancras

http://www.rtranmer.fotopic.net/p62576835.html

 

[dave12435]

Look very French....
Anyways on the news report just now on Local ITV said they were hooing to run 3 emergency trains with and i quote now "another type of train that isnt badly affected by the weather" Now i dont know what "Other Trains" eurostar has got unless they we planning on towing a e* set all the way with one of them diesels

 

[Vulcan]

A eurostar wrapped in an electric blanket

with a hot water bottle

 

[gwr2006]

Look very French....
Anyways on the news report just now on Local ITV said they were hooing to run 3 emergency trains with and i quote now "another type of train that isnt badly affected by the weather" Now i dont know what "Other Trains" eurostar has got unless they we planning on towing a e* set all the way with one of them diesels

These three emergency trains have now been cancelled and rumour is there will be no Eurostar service until Monday!!!

 

[Vulcan]

For 5 eurostars to have failed at the same time I imagine its more a problem with the power supply then the trains themselves? Especially as each eurostar set is actually two independant half sets. This is only a guess though.

 

[CosherB]

It seems that the supercooled trains (due running across frozen France at 186mph) entered the warm (27C) and very humid air of the tunnel, and large quantities of water condensed out of the hot humid tunnel air onto the cold power cars, causing electrical problems with the units.

 

[Vulcan]

So how did this happen to 5 seperate units at the same time?

 

[Old Timer]

Look very French....

They are MaK DE1004's. There are five which were built between 1991 and 1992 for the purpose of shuttle rescue.

They are very similar to the Dutch NS6400 which are owned by Railion and can be found aroiund Amsterdam Westhave, Kijfhoek Yard, Roosendaal, Tilburg, Emmerich am Rhein (Germany), Amersfoort, Venlo, and Zwolle

The Eurotunnel ones are maintained by Nedtrain in the Netherlands, where they are transported by road because they are too big to run by rail.

Here is the NS 6400 loco site.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...mage_result&resnum=6&ct=image&ved=0CBUQ9QEwBQ

 

[Vulcan]

And since when has water on the wires been a problem when they run in the rain all the time with no problem?

 

[SWT Driver]

There can be a problem though if the water has a high salinity level.

Salt water conducts electricity brilliantly!

 

[generalvegitable]

And since when has water on the wires been a problem when they run in the rain all the time with no problem?

its not the water that caused the problem, its the sudden temperature change

 

[SWT Driver]

So a E* goes bombing through the snowy countryside at 186mph, along aside a French autoroute which has been salted & gritted.

The high speed will keep the external temperature, very low, so any salt or other impurity is kept within the frozen snow, it then enters the Chunnel where temperatures are somewhere around 24-27°C, the snow will then rapidly melt & any salt & other nasty will then leech out into the system & needless to say affect the electrical circuits, especially if the cabling hasn't been checked.

Can you imagine how many miles of cabling is in a E*?

 

[Vulcan]

But surely the problem would arise soon after the train has entered the tunnel, rather then deep enough in for more trains to follow it, which they must have done for 5 of them to be in there at once.

 

[SWT Driver]

Don't forget it's still going to be drawing in the icy cold air into the tunnel, it'll enter the tunnel at anywhere between 60-85mph, so the suction will be considerable, also you have the wind speed as well, so that will cool it down & it's probably not going to get really warm until near the crossover cavern on the French side.

Then you have the ventilation system running as well, as the trains get deeper into it the cooling effect is soon negated, temperature rises.

 

[subway156]

Hi people. Haven't been here for a while. Been very busy at work and haven't been on the net much lately. My wife (an expate from England/Scotland), always checks Skye news daily when she saw this story and we talked about it at length. What is up with this? Is there now evacuation/disaster plan for this system? It would seem very likely that there is, but it sounds like liability and cost to the operator came first. I am not knocking the system at all. But if they want repeat customers, rudamentary survival of their passengers should have come first. I understand how sever weather can wreak havoc on electronics. I also understand that this costly venture, as well as it's profitablity can't be that precarious because of it. How are you all coping with your snowstrom? Our just started about an hour ago. Here's how it shapes up. We live about 120 miles due west of NYC and about 60 m iles north of Philly. They are about to be hammerd with 11-15 inches of snow. They predict we'll get around 8. Washington, D.C. is crippled by over 15 inches. The word on the street is that the Long Island RailRoad may very well shut down because of snows volumes as it's mostly 3rd rail. Quite a conundrum. Hope you are all well and ready for the coming holidays. Merry/Happy Christmas.