Charged for 2 journeys instead of 1 on Oyster/contactless

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by themeone, 15 Aug 2015.

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  1. themeone

    themeone Member

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    I also ran foul of Tfl's fares system a few weeks back.

    The journeys I made were as follows:

    1. West Croydon (Z5) - Canada Water (Z2) (Overground) - touched pink reader at Canada Water
    2. Canada Water (Z2) - Canary Wharf (Z2) (Jubilee Line)
    3. Canary Wharf (Z2) - Stratford (Z3) (DLR)
    4. Stratford (Z3) - Enfield Lock (Z6) (West Anglia direct service)

    I would normally have gone straight from Canada Water to Stratford on the Jubilee Line, but that day it was terminating at North Greenwich, hence the diversion onto the DLR.

    Fare should have been £2.60. I was actually charged for two journeys: £1.50 for West Croydon to Stratford, plus £2.40 Stratford to Enfield Lock, even though my touch out and touch in times at Stratford were only 3 minutes apart. I assumed the system would be intelligent enough to work out it was one journey, but apparently not.

    Journey number 2:

    1. Hackney Wick (Z2) - Stratford (Z3) (Overground)
    2. Stratford (Z3) - Canary Wharf (Z2) (DLR)
    3. Canary Wharf (Z2) - Canada Water (Z2) (Jubilee Line) touched pink reader at Canada Water
    4. Canada Water (Z2) - West Croydon (Z5) (Overground)

    Fare should have been £1.50 - charged £3.10. It was the same day as journey 1, so the same issue with the Jubilee Line terminating at North Greenwich caused me to divert onto DLR.

    Tfl have agreed to refund the difference for both journeys today, but I'm just surprised to have been wrongly charged in the first place.
     
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  3. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Why did you touch anything at Stratford though? It is one common paid area isn't it?
     
  4. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    Stratford is not an Out of Station Interchange (OSI; see OSI list) so touching out ended that journey.

    All interchanges within Stratford should be done within the paid side of the station, ie without passing through any ticket gates.
     
  5. hassaanhc

    hassaanhc Established Member

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    When leaving the DLR Platform 4 at Stratford, there are standalone validators with next-to-no indication that you don't use them if interchanging and continuing on Oyster/Contactless.
     
  6. themeone

    themeone Member

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    I had a feeling afterwards that touching out from the DLR at Stratford had been a mistake. I don't use DLR very often and get a bit confused with it.
     
  7. bb21

    bb21 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    They can be a little confusing as the standalone readers on Pfm 4 are only meant for people continuing their journey on NR using paper tickets.
     
  8. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    If you are not starting/finishing your journey on Oyster/contactless you should not touch any 'standalone validator' that you see at an intermediate station.

    These validators are 'continuation exits' meaning if you then do continue the journey and touch out at your true destination you should still be charged the correct fare, though some badly trained revenue protection inspectors/officers may give you hassle. See Continuation exits
     
  9. themeone

    themeone Member

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    So that seems to mean I should have been charged the correct fare after all for West Croydon - Enfield Lock.
     
  10. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    What exactly happened at Stratford? Earlier you said...
    Which and how many validator(s)/reader(s) did you touch exactly?
     
  11. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    One good thing I like about TfL is that their Customer Service centre are always really helpful in my experience, at providing refunds in situations like this.
     
  12. themeone

    themeone Member

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    I touched out of the DLR at the first yellow validator I saw after alighting. Can't be specific where it was as I don't know the station that well.

    I then had a bit of a hunt for the West Anglia train for Enfield Lock (platform 12 I think) and to cut the story short I touched in at the yellow validator just outside the Jubilee Line platforms three minutes later then made my way to platform 12.

    I didn't touch any pink validators, or exit the gateline.
     
  13. causton

    causton Established Member

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    That is probably why.

    If you did not touch at all (as per the intended use) it would have all been okay.
    If you touched once, from what has been said above, it would have been okay as well.
    But as you touched out, then touched another reader, it probably treated the first as a proper exit and the second as an entrance of an entirely new journey.
     
  14. hassaanhc

    hassaanhc Established Member

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    On the other hand, I got an incomplete journey at Waterloo, by not touching out from the Waterloo & City standalone validators before touching in at the mainline barriers (peak hours subway).
     
  15. themeone

    themeone Member

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    Does anyone have any theories as to why I was charged £3.10 for journey 2 (Hackney Wick - West Croydon)?
     
  16. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    Did you touch on the pink reader on the Overground platforms at Stratford?

    (I agree it's very confusing if you're not used to it.)

    Similar happened to me at Lewisham a couple of years ago; I arrived by DLR and was changing to Southeastern and didn't touch out on the standalone validators on the DLR platforms as I assumed it was all part of the same station, but it didn't work like that...
     
    Last edited: 15 Aug 2015
  17. themeone

    themeone Member

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    No, I touched the pink reader at Canada Water.

    I didn't touch the pink reader at Stratford because I already touched the yellow reader there to enter the DLR, in other words there's a record of me travelling via Stratford.

    So I touched in at Hackney Wick, touched in at Stratford DLR, touched out at Canary Wharf DLR, touched in at Canary Wharf Jubilee Line gateline, touched the pink reader at Canada Water, and touched out at West Croydon.

    It was charged as one journey, £3.10.
     
  18. Be3G

    Be3G Established Member

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    This concerns me a tad. At Tottenham Hale there used to be an OSI between a gateline and a standalone validator, and it used to be the case that touching in somewhere like Enfield Lock, walking past the standalone (NR) validator at Tottenham, touching in again at the tube gateline and then out at one's destination would charge the correct fare. (For obvious reasons, this didn't work in reverse.) From what the both of you describe, it sounds like this automatic filling-in-the-blank no longer takes place; either that or it was a special arrangement just for Tottenham Hale in the days before the NR gateline.

    There's the problem then: to get the £1.50 fare, you need to touch a pink reader at Stratford as Indigo2 showed. This is probably slightly poor programming on TfL's part as they've assumed that everyone would use the Jubilee direct hence the system will only be ‘looking out’ for a pink touch rather than a yellow one at Stratford. TfL are always happy to refund any overpayment however if someone's fare is increased through the need to take a diversionary route owing to problems.
     
  19. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Coming in late to this, sorry. Did you actually use Oyster or contactless? Is it possible to list all the touches with times?

    If you touched two validators at Stratford within 3 minutes then it should have been recorded as two continuation exits. I'm sure it would be with Oyster, not quite so sure with contactless, but there could be other issues which contactless has tried to resolve by switching one to an entry.

    Re Tottenham Hale: I have a feeling that before the NR gateline was installed there was quite a generous attitude applied if the validator was missed. The same applies at Finsbury Park after the NR platforms were gated. Sadly it doesn't apply at places like Lewisham and Canary Wharf where forgetting a DLR touch out can be expensive.
     
  20. Jonfun

    Jonfun Established Member

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    I think it was Stratford where I managed to end up in a complete muddle with Oyster too. Coming off the DLR platforms there's big huge signs saying "Don't forget to touch out" so I did, and it said "Exit". Then went to another platform, touched the reader there to start my next journey, and it said "Exit" again. Found a gateline chap eventually who tried to retrace my journey on his reader with limited success, and eventually touched the card on the 'wrong' side of the gateline, which seemed to work, as the barriers at the other end let me out and didn't seem to charge me wrongly.

    It's far simpler just to use a normal ticket than mess around with this Oyster stuff. Nobody can take away the bit of paper that says I've paid, whereas if an inspector checks my Oyster and the yellow reader has Exited me instead of Entered me, then I've little way of proving what actually happened.
     
  21. themeone

    themeone Member

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    Full details attached for both journeys - all done on contactless.

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  22. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Thanks for that. I'll take both those up with my contact at TfL. The second journey has been confused by touching out at Stratford and I don't think there are any pink readers at Canary Wharf, so it must be trying to regularise things - badly. The first one looks like they've started a new journey, but there's no obvious reason why. I'll report back when I hear something.
     
  23. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    So in summary when changing at Stratford:

    -dont touch the yellow inside pads

    -do touch the pink inside pads

    -dont leave the paid area

    Is that about right?

    What happens if the yellow one near platform 4 is touched and not pink? Does it still realise you've been via there and apply the correct fare (assuming a continuation exit later, as already explained)?
     
  24. themeone

    themeone Member

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    Thanks very much Mike.

    The final piece of the saga is that on 2 August I tried to contact TFL online by clicking "Contact us about this journey" and never received any acknowledgement or response, so I ended up having to get my refund agreed on the phone.
     
  25. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    That team is hopeless at the moment. You'll probably get a response shortly apologising for the delay and noting that you've been refunded
     
  26. Reason077

    Reason077 Member

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    Yes.

    The only reason to use these at Stratford is if you are travelling on a mix of paper tickets and Oyster. The Oyster system does make some attempts to try to resolve incomplete journeys, but you shouldn't count on it. Unless you are starting or ending an Oyster journey, or doing an out-of-station interchange, don't touch that yellow reader!
     
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