Cheques no longer accepted

[causton]

Perhaps if this is rolled out to more phones (with chip and pin capabilities)...

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2009/12/your-iphone-can-now-swipe-credit-cards/31180/

 

[route:oxford]

It would be far better if the true cost of operating the cheque clearing system (as it stands or as it will become) was settled by the people who use it.

The early 90s was the time that free banking became the norm. Prior to that people generally paid for each individual transaction. It was between 45p-60p per cheque drawn from your account and 15p to 20p for each cheque deposited. Businesses still tend to pay an individual rate per item paid or collected.

I see no reason why it would be fair for me to have to pay indirectly for a service I rarely use, nor wish to use. I certainly have no desire to pay for a clearing system to operate simply so the chuggers can pester me with raffle tickets.

Last week, I bought some new NS&I Premium Bonds. No cheques, no visits to the post office, no stamps and no forms. I simply sent a BACS payment to the relevant sort code and account number, with my existing holders number as a reference. I set up the payment on the Sunday, it debited my account on the Monday, was received by NS&I on Wednesday and I received my new bond certificate on the Friday. I suppose I "lost" 3p in interest during the transaction - but it would have cost me 15 times that for a 1st class stamp.

 

[SS4]

....and how do I send in the stubs for the raffle tickets which they always say should accompany the cheque, as they check them on receipt of their inward mail? This is their ruling, not mine. Many elderly people do not use computers....despite the banks stating the case somewhat differently.

That would mean it's a vested interest by the elderly to keep cheques going just as it's the banks vested interest to state they're all online.

On another VERY relevant manner, there are very many people who will refuse ONLINE banking services, because of the fact that these are NEVER totally proof against criminals who are always finding new methods of crime using the computerised expertise offered by people with much computer skills, especially from the Asian continent. Only a few days ago, SONY gave a press release about many millions of accounts (some with credit card details) that have been accessed by computer fraud...AND THIS WAS STATED TO BE THE SECOND SUCH OCCURRENCE THIS YEAR!!

Good one. Except the Sony case and online banking are entirely separate. My bank uses 128 bit encryption to process data, in other words there is a 1 in 2^128 chance of someone brute forcing their way into my account. Some even use 256 bit encryption which is 1 in 2^256. Online fraud is not caused by hackers as much as user error - for example leaving your passwords written next to the pc or failing to log out. I would certainly hazard a guess that posting an unencrypted cheque in the post is far less secure than shopping online. In addition if someone was to obtain your card details you're protected and you can put an instant block on your account. I know you can cancel a cheque but in all honesty would you realise until the money had left the account?

You mentioned the elderly earlier, while a fair number are offline it still makes sense for them to get paid directly than to receive a cheque which requires cashing or depositing. It is just as inconvenient for business as it is for ordinary people to deal with cheques.

Are you sure that such banking facilies exist for payment to all very small businesses such as our window cleaner, who will accept a cheque rather than cash, for fear of being mugged

They cannot deny cash though as it is legal tender although I certainly sympathise with their fear of being mugged.

 

[Magicake]

I completely understand why the banks want to get rid of cheques but as a student I find them really useful. I get through a cheque book about once every 6 months just for paying things like sports clubs, dinners, etc. and receive just as many. It would be possible to do this by bank transfer but its so much easier to work out who had paid money if you are collecting cheques in.

 

[Tom B]

I administer a sports club, that holds a couple of tournaments and a few beginners' courses each year. Entry at about £6; courses at £40 We are looking into PayPal, but not everyone has online access, and we would need to develop online application forms etc. Cash by post is not on. Sure, cheques are a nuisance, but there should be a better alternative before they are dropped completely.

This is exactly the problem with getting rid of cheques. Similarly, I administer an event that traders can book stalls for - they fill in a form and send a cheque. The event is run by a small charity which doesn't have the money to invest in an online payment system, and in any case the vast majority of people still elect to fill in a paper form and send it with their cheque rather than filling it in electronically (they're given the option of both). You *could* ask people to send money via BACS, but that'd need us to set up online banking and spend ages cross-referencing application forms with BACS payments, not forgetting people who will forget to put a reference in.... aaaah give me a cheque any day!!

And what happens when your debit card is lost/nabbed by an ATM/chewed up/etc? Oh, you go to the bank and write a cheque to allow you to get cash out...!

I actually think the status quo is fine, most people and companies will use debit cards etc but where cheques are the best (e.g. in this sort of case) they'll still get used.

 

[Flamingo]

In six years I've only ever been offered cheques twice to pay for tickets on-board. Both in the same week, a few months ago.

- One was a guy who was having a snit because I was making him pay a new ticket as his split ticket was not valid, and he said he was going to pay by cheque as it was the biggest pain to process. I let him write it out, then refused to accept it as the card he produced was not a cheque card, but an ordinary debit card (which I used to process the £30 instead ).
- The other was a drunk with no cheque card who paid cash when told that leaving the train at Reading was his next option, and it was the last train to South Wales.

Occasionally youngsters turn up at the buffet with them, invariably without cheque card or other ID.

 

[Deerfold]

And what happens when your debit card is lost/nabbed by an ATM/chewed up/etc? Oh, you go to the bank and write a cheque to allow you to get cash out...!

This happened to me last week. I didn't need a cheque - though I did need ID and had more security questions than usual (which seems fair enough!).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

- One was a guy who was having a snit because I was making him pay a new ticket as his split ticket was not valid, and he said he was going to pay by cheque as it was the biggest pain to process. I let him write it out, then refused to accept it as the card he produced was not a cheque card, but an ordinary debit card (which I used to process the £30 instead ).

A lot of people don't realise that they've been phasing out cheque guarantee cards for a while and though they used to have a guarantee card they don't now.

I had a peek at my cheque book - over the last 10 years I've written 9 cheques. The most recent was to my employer for an over payment in my pay (oddly enough for rail-related reasons) which they could have easily sorted by removing it from my next pay.

 

[bb21]

... which they could have easily sorted by removing it from my next pay.

Tax purposes I would imagine, if the original amount is paid as expenses.

 

[43167]

The only real use I had for paying by cheque was my phone bill. However I recently discovered an orange phone shop in Keighley, so I now use that.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'm still getting through about three cheque books a year; about ½ of this is my withdrawing cash at the counter ( I don't trust the machines and I like to keep the people in work ); about ½ of the rest is paying the Readers' Digest for books and various magazines for subscriptions and binders.

 

[bb21]

I do still use cheques, at the rate of about one book (25) a year, mainly to pay for things bought off ebay, as paypal really annoys me after a few problems I had with them some years back. It takes a few days longer, however the whole thing has always run rather smoothly.

Like Peter Mugridge, I also use them to pay for magazine subscriptions and group memberships at various places. I prefer them to Direct Debits as I'm more in control of when and how much something is paid, making it easier to budget.

 

[Smethwickian]

Direct Debits, Credit and debit cards for paying by post, and online payment for your credit card bill and most other things each month, makes the cheque all but redundant now. Good riddance to them and thank heavens for the internet!

A cheque is a clear, concise, single written instruction - signed and dated - for a specific single amount of money to be paid over to one specific person or business once only.

Handing over your credit or debit card number and expiry date on a mail order form or on the internet is giving licence to take any sum at any time - including to anyone whose hands the letter or email might inadvertantly fall into.

Yes, I know you can complain to the bank - but then the onus is on proving fraud and battling to get a refund.

So no, I do not welcome the demise of cheques.

 

[Oswyntail]

A simple question. Under the Cheques Act 1957 (dunno if there are any later!) a cheque was a legally defined financial instrument, and there were legal duties and definitions surrounding it. Is there an equivalent for electronic transfers, or are they a legal black hole?

 

[island]

There are far fewer regulations around bank transfers. I believe a copy of a lodged cheque is conclusive proof of payment of a debt, whereas there's nothing similar for bank transfers. You can also (allegedly) write a cheque on any material, including a cow.

 

[pdq]

What about business cheques? I work for a Govt agency and get a season ticket loan which is paid as a company cheque to the station operator - First Keolis in my case. It's an easy way of giving me access to the funds without (a) me having to pay £2400 up front or (b) my employer giving me the cash up front, which they cannot do for tax reasons, as I could just use it as an interest free loan for anything.

 

[wintonian]

What about business cheques? I work for a Govt agency and get a season ticket loan which is paid as a company cheque to the station operator - First Keolis in my case. It's an easy way of giving me access to the funds without (a) me having to pay £2400 up front or (b) my employer giving me the cash up front, which they cannot do for tax reasons, as I could just use it as an interest free loan for anything.

I agree with your point, but they could extend warrants to allows the purchase of season tickets (or are they allowed now?) and ask for the loans to be paid back by standing order/ direct debit.

 

[Deerfold]

It's an easy way of giving me access to the funds without (b) my employer giving me the cash up front, which they cannot do for tax reasons, as I could just use it as an interest free loan for anything.

I don't see why not. Mine does. I got a £2900 loan in my normal pay packet and paid for my season ticket the next day on my debit card.

They do make it clear that they'll regard it as a disciplinary offence if you use it to buy anything else.

 

[route:oxford]

What about business cheques? I work for a Govt agency and get a season ticket loan which is paid as a company cheque to the station operator - First Keolis in my case. It's an easy way of giving me access to the funds without (a) me having to pay £2400 up front or (b) my employer giving me the cash up front, which they cannot do for tax reasons, as I could just use it as an interest free loan for anything.

My company travel agent organises season tickets for me (they need a valid photo card number).

I think it's all processed through the trainline.

 

[barrykas]

I agree with your point, but they could extend warrants to allows the purchase of season tickets (or are they allowed now?) and ask for the loans to be paid back by standing order/ direct debit.

Warrants come in two varieties...Season Ticket warrants (which come in books of 25) and "normal" ones (which come in books of 50).

Cheers,

Barry

 

[island]

Just a reminder that cheques cease to be an ATOC-required accepted method of payment for tickets as of 1st July. Several TOCs have stated they will continue to accept company cheques (with various supporting documents such as a payslip) in payment for season tickets until further notice.

 

[Holly]

Are Travellers' Cheques still accepted?

A number of Americans visiting Europe has been surprised to discover that American issued credit cards are nowhere near as widely accepted as they were, probably because theirs typically incorporate no "modern" features. Consequently they have been falling back onto carrying Travelers' Checks (sic) which can be purchased in various major currencies from AAA without commission.

No-one wants to be carrying large sums of cash but it is getting to be more common among international travellers.

 

[island]

Are Travellers' Cheques still accepted?

On trains and at stations? They haven't been for some time.

American-issued (i.e. non-chipped) credit cards are absolutely fine at any ticket office, for buying on-train, or for collecting tickets booked online at a TVM. I don't think they will work to purchase a ticket there and then at a TVM though.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Spotted yesterday onboard 156460. Note the old Card logos, which were replaced with newer logos some time ago. Does Delta still exist?

 

[HST Power]

I think so, but I could be wrong. I don't use it.

 

[DJ737]

American-issued (i.e. non-chipped) credit cards are absolutely fine at any ticket office, for buying on-train, or for collecting tickets booked online at a TVM. I don't think they will work to purchase a ticket there and then at a TVM though.

G'day there

I had trouble with my non-chipped AUS issued AMEX at Tesco in Pembroke Dock when I was over in Febuary, the checkout chick had to get a supervisor to sort it out.

When I returned to Melbourne, I contacted AMEX and they advised that cards will be re-issued with chips from August 2011, not sure if it is in all markets though.

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

 

[swt_passenger]

Spotted yesterday onboard 156460. Note the old Card logos, which were replaced with newer logos some time ago. Does Delta still exist?

Delta was originally the Debit Card side of the VISA payment system but has been obsolescent since about mid 2009, but there are still some bank's cards out there marked as Delta, as they can last 2 - 3 years.

 

[Nym]

It was rebranded Visa Delta, then Visa Debit...

Visa now consisting of

Visa (Credit)
Visa Debit
Visa Electron

With a couple of subtypes in the debit reigon.

The only cards that ever present a problem in the UK for most retailers is the Amex 'Black' card because it is made of graphite / carbon and is much thicker. Problems can occur with anything that requires online authorization. These being Visa Electron and Solo, as well as some pre-paid mastercards, depending on chip configurations.

Just goes to show how good the training is in retail if they don't know how to swipe a card any more... (Coming from a former shift manager at a popular high street retailer) Granted it was at an airport, so I saw a fair few international cards, Chip+Sign is quite popular for international ones, confuses the hell out of some staff.

 

[Mike395]

Swiping a card is liable to have the TOCs card acceptance facilities removed as per their agreement with the bank(s).

Have a look for PCI-DSS and you can find some of the standards.

Agreed for customers with cards issued in this country with a chip, but surely TOCs can't discriminate against non-chip cards or international cards?

 

[Nym]

I know...

If the card has a chip, you can't swipe it except for certain circumstances, same as you can't key if you can swipe or chip. But if there's no chip, you have to swipe & sign.

Such as, non UK/EU cards, fuel cards, pre pay cards.

Note: depending on the system in use, some cards are swipe+sign, or chip+sign, or chip+sign+pin...

 

[island]

Swiping a card is liable to have the TOCs card acceptance facilities removed as per their agreement with the bank(s).

Have a look for PCI-DSS and you can find some of the standards.

I'm afraid that's quite inaccurate. A merchant that swipes a chipped card who cannot provide justification for doing so on request by the issuer (which might include that the chip didn't work after several tries) is liable to have the transaction reversed and be charged a penalty. Conceivably doing this an excessive number of times could get the merchant's card acceptance facilities removed or suspended. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with swiping a non-chipped card — quite the opposite, in fact; if a merchant refuses a non-chipped card for no other reason than because it is not chipped, that is a fast-track way of getting card acceptance facilities removed. Bear in mind that MasterCard and American Express are American companies (Visa is several different associated companies for the different regions) and the last thing they want is complaints from their American members that cards aren't being accepted abroad.

PCI-DSS (Payment Card Industry Data Storage Standards) has to do with the storage of card details after the transaction (e.g. for subscriptions or where the customer wants to be able to do future transactions easily, like when you tick the "remember this card" box on a TOC's website). For cardholder-present transactions where the card details aren't going to be retained, it doesn't come into it.