Chiltern failure to tell passengers which platform.

[Kettledrum]

You can announce the two trains; you simply tell passengers to go to the front/rear train. You also make sure they get frequent onboard announcements before departure and the info screens inside are scrolling through the booked calling points, so the pax. are reassured they're on the right train. I've seen this done at locations such as Waterloo, and it works fine, provided you make it absolutely clear what is going on.

Birmingham New Street is another place where they announce 2 trains on the same platform, and that's really packed in the rush hour

 

[barrykas]

There's a big difference between Marylebone, which has six platforms and a two track approach, and Euston, which has eighteen platforms and a six track approach!

They do try to post trains as early as possible, but where there are multiple trains in a platform, or they need to split/join on arrival, etc this isn't always feasible.
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Birmingham New Street is another place where they announce 2 trains on the same platform, and that's really packed in the rush hour

Again, Birmingham New Street has the platforms divided into separate "A" and "B" (and I believe "C" in some cases) sections, and their CIS can handle that...

 

[Bevan Price]

This same situation happens every hour at Lime Street. xx22 on the front is the TPE express to Scarborough, the xx25 on the blocks is the Northern stopper to Oxford Road. Advertised as the front / rear train as appropriate, all up on the boards. Seems to work fine.

And they usually seem to keep the doors of the xx25 locked until the TPE has departed.

 

[Pumbaa]

Sometimes, yes. Depends on the crew than any official policy I think. Many a time it's been wide open and ready to roll.

 

[grid56126]

The software can't do it.

The hardware layout can't do. Where on a 10 car platform is the front and rear section going to be when the platform can have any length of train from 2 to 7 carriages. With a 7 car and a 2 car, one of the trains will be in both halves. With 2 x 2 cars both trains will be in the rear section.

Multiple trains have been boarded at Marylebone (most notably a 2 car 165 to Gerard's cross on top of a w&s 67 rake), but it requires good co-ordination and extra staff, not available at MYB at 22:45.

Not saying it's acceptable what happened, but not always as easy or cheap as seems to have been assumed here and definitely not because of a jobs worth as was put somewhere up thread

So how come it happens at Kings Cross late at night, onemember of staff, two trains, some 3 cars some 4?

It COULD be resolved with a bit of work stream and a few head banging sessions. Or it could just be left to carry on ad infinitum as it's easier to say sorry to people who miss their trains.

Grid.

 

[causton]

How much does it cost to have 2 posters printed?

One could say front train/train A/Blue zone and the other could say a contrasting message, then add a fake "first stop" or a note along the bottom of the departure boards. Or give the dispatcher a whiteboard on wheels and a pen and get someone to add a note saying "check notices on platform" to the trains surely? Is there any remote access (i.e. from Control) to the CIS or does the dispatcher have to add notes/amend details?

 

[Eagle]

The software can't do it.

The hardware layout can't do. Where on a 10 car platform is the front and rear section going to be when the platform can have any length of train from 2 to 7 carriages. With a 7 car and a 2 car, one of the trains will be in both halves. With 2 x 2 cars both trains will be in the rear section.

It copes fine at Edinburgh Waverley, where trains of between 2 and 6 cars are double-banked in the bays, usually right up against one another. The announcements simply go "Platform 14 for the 13.30 service to Glasgow Queen Street. Travel in the front four coaches for Haymarket, Linlithgow, Polmont (etc)" I see no reason why Marylebone couldn't have a similar system.

 

[causton]

I see no reason why Marylebone couldn't have a similar system.

Presumably the CIS at Marylebone normally works vaguely alright and so it isn't worth the cost of getting an entirely new CIS!

 

[hick]

It copes fine at Edinburgh Waverley, where trains of between 2 and 6 cars are double-banked in the bays, usually right up against one another. The announcements simply go "Platform 14 for the 13.30 service to Glasgow Queen Street. Travel in the front four coaches for Haymarket, Linlithgow, Polmont (etc)" I see no reason why Marylebone couldn't have a similar system.

Anything is possible with money. I'm not familiar with the Edinburgh example, but how does the CIS know which monitors along the length of the platform to display which trains. I.e. how does it know which train is along side?

 

[Eagle]

Anything is possible with money. I'm not familiar with the Edinburgh example, but how does the CIS know which monitors along the length of the platform to display which trains. I.e. how does it know which train is along side?

The monitors along the platforms all say "First Departure" and "Second Departure" and display both trains (as well as telling you "front 3"/"rear 2"/etc., of course).

Example (this being 17/18).

 

[trainophile]

So long as they don't announce (as heard by me recently) "passengers for *** please board the train standing on the eastern end of Platform *. We don't all have a built-in compass!

 

[Eagle]

So long as they don't announce (as heard by me recently) "passengers for *** please board the train standing on the eastern end of Platform *. We don't all have a built-in compass!

Well they kind of do a bit, but in the form of platforms 8E, 8W, 9E and 9W (which are clearly signed as such). :P

 

[barrykas]

So how come it happens at Kings Cross late at night, onemember of staff, two trains, some 3 cars some 4?

Kings Cross, like various other stations that have been mentioned, has separate "a" and "b" sections for the platforms in the "Suburban" trainshed (Platforms 9 to 11), with separate feeds for their monitors...However, I don't recall seeing two trains advertised on the same platform at the same time there.

And again, Kings Cross has more than one member of TOC Operations staff around late night, unlike Marylebone, where it's just one Dispatcher after a certain time.

The other issue is that, regardless of how many announcements you make and posters you put up, people will manage to get on the wrong train, potentially resulting in them activating the emergency alarm when the train they've board goes through the station they wanted to alight at at 100mph!

 

[furlong]

When the platform doesn't appear on the monitors until very close to its actual departure time (or there is a late platform alteration), that should override the setting that removes the train from the display two minutes before departure.

In other words, there should be a minimum amount of time the platform must be displayed on the monitors before the train can be removed due to the closeness of the departure time.

 

[RPM]

At the moment at MYB trains on the far platforms disappear from all screens at T-2 minutes under normal circumstances. An improvement would be to have the trains disappear off the main board and summary screens at T-2 mins, but retain them on the screens on the platform itself until T-30 secs. That would avoid the common problem of passengers setting off for the platform but then getting confused and lost when all trace of the train they are looking for disappears from the system whilst they are en route to the platform.
Appreciate it wouldn't have helped in this particular instance, but worth mentioning whilst we are on the subject.

 

[barrykas]

At the moment at MYB trains on the far platforms disappear from all screens at T-2 minutes under normal circumstances. An improvement would be to have the trains disappear off the main board and summary screens at T-2 mins, but retain them on the screens on the platform itself until T-30 secs. That would avoid the common problem of passengers setting off for the platform but then getting confused and lost when all trace of the train they are looking for disappears from the system whilst they are en route to the platform.

The CIS at Marylebone does have the facility to keep the trains on the platform monitors for a minute after they've been taken off the main departure board...but it can only be done manually in the current version of the software, as most of the time you'd only use the facility for trains at the country end of platforms 5 and 6.

 

[TDK]

I have heard many an announcement along the lines of "The next train to arrive on Platform One will be the Oh Nine Whatever South West Trains Service to London Waterloo, calling at Rowlands Castle, Petersfield, Liss, Liphook, Haslemere..." and there's been no train there.

"The train now standing at Platform One" announcements do tend to have a train there.

"

I was referring to terminus stations
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What are the safety reasons?

Overcrowding at a terminus station casuising risk to death and injury - I should of added terminus station in my post
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You can announce the two trains; you simply tell passengers to go to the front/rear train. You also make sure they get frequent onboard announcements before departure and the info screens inside are scrolling through the booked calling points, so the pax. are reassured they're on the right train. I've seen this done at locations such as Waterloo, and it works fine, provided you make it absolutely clear what is going on.

Sorry but this does not happen as the general public using the trains do not either listen to the announcements and will still try and on many occasions board the wrong train. I have actually seen passengers trying to board a sandite train before. It is OK if the passenger has a basic knowledge of how the system works but unfortunately they do not. I have worked at Marylebone before and you would not believe how many passengers try to board the wrong train when it is on the information board as "Far Train". the doors are locked on the train at the stops with the lights out and they still try to board.

 

[Trainfan344]

I have heard many an announcement along the lines of "The next train to arrive on Platform One will be the Oh Nine Whatever South West Trains Service to London Waterloo, calling at Rowlands Castle, Petersfield, Liss, Liphook, Haslemere..." and there's been no train there.

I was referring to terminus stations

I present Norwich, "The Next train to arrive at platform 5 is the 15:40 Greater Anglia service to Lowestoft, Calling at....."

Example of trains being announced before arrival.

 

[TDK]

I present Norwich, "The Next train to arrive at platform 5 is the 15:40 Greater Anglia service to Lowestoft, Calling at....."

Example of trains being announced before arrival.

You cannot compare Norwich to Marylrbone at Peak

 

[barrykas]

I present Norwich, "The Next train to arrive at platform 5 is the 15:40 Greater Anglia service to Lowestoft, Calling at....."

Example of trains being announced before arrival.

That has been done at Marylebone where there's been a tight turnaround, or if the inbound working is an ECS move, but they try to avoid it due to the relatively narrow platforms and conflicting passenger flows.

 

[Eagle]

I present Norwich, "The Next train to arrive at platform 5 is the 15:40 Greater Anglia service to Lowestoft, Calling at....."

Formerly the 15.40 One service? :P

 

[NSEFAN]

Sorry but this does not happen as the general public using the trains do not either listen to the announcements and will still try and on many occasions board the wrong train. I have actually seen passengers trying to board a sandite train before. It is OK if the passenger has a basic knowledge of how the system works but unfortunately they do not. I have worked at Marylebone before and you would not believe how many passengers try to board the wrong train when it is on the information board as "Far Train". the doors are locked on the train at the stops with the lights out and they still try to board.

This is why I am saying that the trains and stations need to have enough information. The sooner pax. realise they are on the wrong train the sooner they can move to the correct one. It can't be beyond the wit of man to say "the front train / N coaches on platform X for A, rear train / M coaches on platform X for B". It also must be possible to ensure that all trains have working PIS that is continually displaying the calling pattern so that anyone who accidentally boards the wrong train knows about it ASAP.

As for platform overcrowding, there should be enough trains to allow a continual flow of people, such that crowding doesn't become a problem. Allowing people onto the platform a couple of minutes before the train arrives shouldn't be causing safety issues. Obviously if there is disruption/exceptionally large crowds then things are different, but for day-to-day operation it should be fine.

There's always going to be some passengers who get confused, but if you treat all passengers like idiots then eventually that's what they become. Perhaps if we had fewer useless announcements about cases, parcels, smoking and slippery floors, the pax. might take announcements more seriously.

 

[aleph_0]

As for platform overcrowding, there should be enough trains to allow a continual flow of people, such that crowding doesn't become a problem. Allowing people onto the platform a couple of minutes before the train arrives shouldn't be causing safety issues. Obviously if there is disruption/exceptionally large crowds then things are different, but for day-to-day operation it should be fine.

Not entirely relevent in this case, but I arrived on a train into Reading Platform 4 yesterday, my late-running train set to go straight back out again. There weren't a huge amount of passengers waiting around to board the train, but those that did, did constrain the flow a lot, which caused the platform to clear slower, and was terribly counter-productive towards the goal of the waterloo-bound passengers catching the train.

Ideally, what's really needed is for everyone to act optimally. In this case, passengers waiting on the platform was a good idea, as long as they moved to the London-end before the train arrived, and stood single file nearer the london end.

 

[Goatboy]

Overcrowding at a terminus station casuising risk to death and injury - I should of added terminus station in my post

Could you possibly be any more dramatic? Possible death from announcing platforms before trains arrive? Goodness me.

 

[Tibbs]

Could you possibly be any more dramatic? Possible death from announcing platforms before trains arrive? Goodness me.

Don't forget, all commuters (without exception) are lemmings and can not be trusted not to step off the edge of a platform without a train there to stop them.

Daily at Euston there are people walking into the side of trains as they don't understand where the platform ends and the train begins. :roll:

lol

 

[TDK]

Could you possibly be any more dramatic? Possible death from announcing platforms before trains arrive? Goodness me.

Look, I drive trains for a job and when coming into a terminus when the platform is packed the passengers are not interested in the possibility of the consequences of falling under the train but jostling with fellow passengers to get to the front to get the seat. So a train comes in to a platform, surely it is safer and better if the passengers are allowed to alight safely without the risk? It is not announcing but the consequences. I have driven trains into Victoria, London Bridge, Charing Cross, Marylebone, Manchester, Liverpool and others and belive that it is safer if the platform is clear when the train arrives, so announcing a train before it arrives is creating a risk to the passengers, a safer way would be to diplsy the platform and ensure the passengers queue at that alocated platform and then let them through once the train has stopped and the alighting passengers are clear!.

 

[Goatboy]

Look, I drive trains for a job and when coming into a terminus when the platform is packed the passengers are not interested in the possibility of the consequences of falling under the train but jostling with fellow passengers to get to the front to get the seat. So a train comes in to a platform, surely it is safer and better if the passengers are allowed to alight safely without the risk?

And this is different to arriving at somewhere like Birmingham New Street, with a pre-packed platform, errrr how exactly?

 

[Pumbaa]

It clearly isn't that big a risk if it happens daily at many locations...

 

[barrykas]

Having seen how close to the platform edge people walk, or even ride a bike, I'm quite frankly amazed that there aren't daily occurrences of drivers making emergency brake applications part way into the station.

Bonus points for cyclists with their lights on in the platform area. (Hint: Showing a train driver a red light = Stop...)

 

[Tibbs]

Look, I drive trains for a job and when coming into a terminus when the platform is packed the passengers are not interested in the possibility of the consequences of falling under the train but jostling with fellow passengers to get to the front to get the seat.

I think they're pretty interested in not getting hit tbh.

Go on, go against type and have some respect for the intelligence of commuters.