Chiltern Oxford Link completed

[The Planner]

I'd expect it to be clear for W10 gauge freight as a minimum, would IEP fit in that profile ?'

 

[Andyjs247]

Actually a lot of people living around Thame and Haddenham commute into Oxford for work, so a direct train would make plenty of sense. And for those of you saying that people will just get the Arriva 280 bus as they do now, take a look at the timetable first.

Due to rush-hour traffic conditions around Oxford, even those 280s which bypass Wheatley are allowed almost an hour from Thame (and 15 minutes more from Haddenham) to reach the centre of Oxford. Set that against 14 or 15 minutes on a train from Haddenham & Thame to Bicester and 14 more on into Oxford and the potential for rail to grab a slice of the action is obvious, even if it looks a long way round to make the journey.

Oxford's road traffic is why commuting in and out of the city on all the existing rail routes (even the current low-speed Bicester service since the recent increase in frequency made it a reasonable option again) is growing fast. Chiltern's eyes are firmly fixed on London commuters but a 14-minute journey time means that in conjunction with East West services, they stand to clean up on Bicester-Oxford commuting as well.

I'd wager that many if not most commuters from Haddenham towards Oxford would still use the bus. I agree that a train would be quicker to Oxford city centre but a significant proportion of commuters will be going to work in Headington at the hospitals or Brookes University rather than in the city centre.

I'd hope that bus links to the hospitals from the adjacent Water Eaton Park&Ride would improve (the current 700 runs hourly) once Water Eaton Parkway opens. From Bicester the commute via Water Eaton to the hospitals and Headington could become very attractive. Only yesterday I know it took someone 1.5 hours returning from the JR Hospital to Bicester via the A34.

Although preferable to going all the way to the city centre and doubling back, it's debatable if there would be much advantage in catching a train from Haddenham to Water Eaton then a bus rather than the direct 280 which stops in Headington if going to the hospital. Having said that I do hope Chiltern can manage to run at least some services which call High Wycombe - Princes Risborough - Haddenham & Thame - Bicester Town - Islip - Water Eaton - Oxford. Maybe there is scope to extend one of the Wycombe semi-fasts at peak times as well as the 2tph fast service to Oxford? It would restore an Oxford - Thame - Princes Risborough - High Wycombe service after many years but I guess it depends on paths being available on the Chiltern mainline.

 

[The Ham]

I'd wager that many if not most commuters from Haddenham towards Oxford would still use the bus. I agree that a train would be quicker to Oxford city centre but a significant proportion of commuters will be going to work in Headington at the hospitals or Brookes University rather than in the city centre.

I'd hope that bus links to the hospitals from the adjacent Water Eaton Park&Ride would improve (the current 700 runs hourly) once Water Eaton Parkway opens. From Bicester the commute via Water Eaton to the hospitals and Headington could become very attractive. Only yesterday I know it took someone 1.5 hours returning from the JR Hospital to Bicester via the A34.

Although preferable to going all the way to the city centre and doubling back, it's debatable if there would be much advantage in catching a train from Haddenham to Water Eaton then a bus rather than the direct 280 which stops in Headington if going to the hospital. Having said that I do hope Chiltern can manage to run at least some services which call High Wycombe - Princes Risborough - Haddenham & Thame - Bicester Town - Islip - Water Eaton - Oxford. Maybe there is scope to extend one of the Wycombe semi-fasts at peak times as well as the 2tph fast service to Oxford? It would restore an Oxford - Thame - Princes Risborough - High Wycombe service after many years but I guess it depends on paths being available on the Chiltern mainline.

Given that Water Eaton looks like it would be within the Oxford Plusbus travel area, it is likely people would travel in the way you suggested.

 

[route:oxford]

Just a bit of clarificiation about the 700 service between Water Eaton P&R and Headington Hospitals...

The service service operates every 15-20 minutes.

Now that it is operated by Stagecoach (following the collapse of RH), it falls within the "Smartzone*" area. Smartzone passes are available with a significant subsidy to OUH, University and Brookes staff. It's unlikely that Plus-bus would be an economical add-on for uni/health rail commuters compared to Smartzone pass.

In the near future, the 700 service will be merged with the 600 service and shuttle between Redbridge & Water Eaton.

 

[jimm]

yes especially when we see the wires being put up on the GWML.

However we have to ask will the east west route actually be cleared for IEP?

It would be pretty daft it if it wasn't and Network Rail policy, as it was on BR before it, is to future-proof whenever practical on projects big and small. There are places where there isn't an overhead electric wire for miles yet but they are on their second footbridge with clearances to allow for electrification.

If 26m stock is to be the new standard for express services, then it seems a fair bet that when the Chiltern Line is wired, the new rolling stock would be to those dimensions. With East West and Evergreen3 requiring a pretty thorough rebuild of the Oxford-Bicester-Bletchley route, I'm sure the design work has allowed for 26m coaches from the start. The Chiltern Line would need tackling as well for diversion use, though the loading gauge is generous, being an ex-GW route, so not likely to be many locations to sort out.

I'd wager that many if not most commuters from Haddenham towards Oxford would still use the bus. I agree that a train would be quicker to Oxford city centre but a significant proportion of commuters will be going to work in Headington at the hospitals or Brookes University rather than in the city centre.

I work west of the city centre and west of the River Thames and there are two people in my office who live in Thame, who would gladly give up attempting the journey to Oxford on rubber tyres if they could. For those working on the eastern side of the city, any gain would be marginal but in the centre and nearby, there is likely to be a clear time saving (and a lot less stress, if they are driving themselves at present).

 

[route:oxford]

I work west of the city centre and west of the River Thames

The Isis surely!

there are two people in my office who live in Thame, who would gladly give up attempting the journey to Oxford on rubber tyres if they could. For those working on the eastern side of the city, any gain would be marginal but in the centre and nearby, there is likely to be a clear time saving (and a lot less stress, if they are driving themselves at present).

It'll be a long time before a definitive timetable is cast, but I imagine there'll be scope to deliver a stop in peak times to serve people who'd prefer a quicker route to work - or who seek to change to a MK bound service at Bicester Village.

 

[jimm]

The Isis surely!

Sorry, I'm a bit of a pleb...

 

[barrykas]

Looking at Google Maps and the Plusbus site, Oxford Plusbus extends as far North as Kidlington, so Water Eaton is inside the area.

 

[Mojo]

I'd wager that many if not most commuters from Haddenham towards Oxford would still use the bus.

I'd have thought most would drive, if not all the way, but to the Park and Ride site; rather than use a slow, clapped out, expensive, uncomfortable bus.

 

[tbtc]

I'd have thought most would drive, if not all the way, but to the Park and Ride site; rather than use a slow, clapped out, expensive, uncomfortable bus.

Are you basing this on regular use of Oxford buses, or is this just general sentiment?

 

[jimm]

I'd have thought most would drive, if not all the way, but to the Park and Ride site; rather than use a slow, clapped out, expensive, uncomfortable bus.

You just try finding a parking space at Thornhill park-and-ride

Looking at Google Maps and the Plusbus site, Oxford Plusbus extends as far North as Kidlington, so Water Eaton is inside the area.

You seem to have missed the point routeoxford was making - I have added the italics

Now that it is operated by Stagecoach (following the collapse of RH), it falls within the "Smartzone*" area. Smartzone passes are available with a significant subsidy to OUH, University and Brookes staff.

IE they get a very attractive discount on the normal prices of the Smartzone passes. They don't with Plusbus.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Actually, while not up to Stagecoach Gold standards (but what is), most (although it must be admitted, not all) of the Arriva buses on the 280/200 are pretty smart, modern, well-maintained, clean and reasonably comfortable (high-backed seats; and with free wifi too). Expensive? Depends what you're comparing it with...

(The Red Rose buses on the 275 between High Wycombe and Oxford, on the other hand....now they are horrid)

Still, the rush hour traffic is horrendous. The main problem for the train is, as ever, the pretty unhelpful location of Oxford Station.

 

[QJ]

the pretty unhelpful location of Oxford Station

On a railway line.

An ex GW one at that hence a long walk to the city centre, the universe and beyond. How about a connecting free bus shuttle (like Chester - or maybe not! No such thing as a free ride these days).

 

[LE Greys]

Hooray!

We're finally going to get on with building something rather than just talking about it. Let's hope they push on eastwards as soon as this is finished.

...the pretty unhelpful location of Oxford Station.

On a railway line.

An ex GW one at that hence a long walk to the city centre, the universe and beyond. How about a connecting free bus shuttle (like Chester - or maybe not! No such thing as a free ride these days).

Isn't that another of those 'please don't corrupt our students' stories like Cambridge and Slough?

 

[jimm]

On a railway line.

An ex GW one at that hence a long walk to the city centre, the universe and beyond. How about a connecting free bus shuttle (like Chester - or maybe not! No such thing as a free ride these days).

You make it sound like it's out in the country somewhere - it's a perfectly straightforward walk to the centre and there are buses to pretty much anywhere beyond in the city from the station forecourt or the road outside. The free Chester buses were axed the best part of a year ago unless my memory is playing tricks on me.

The location has nothing to do with it being GWR, the old LNWR/LMS station was right next door to it as well. Given the physical geography of Oxford, short of smashing the railway through the centre (which the university's colleges wouldn't allow), it would have been hard to get a station much closer to the heart of the city in any case.

 

[HSTEd]

Why do I get a feeling this whole thing is going to end up as a collosal subsidy farm......

Oh well.

 

[barrykas]

Why do I get a feeling this whole thing is going to end up as a collosal subsidy farm......

There is just one flaw in that statement...Last I heard, Chiltern were paying a premium to the DfT.

 

[Nym]

and the DfT arent funding any part of the evergreen improvments.
Im personally hoping someone also joins the croxley rail link into EWR proposals. So I can get to Bristol via Didcot or Oxford avoiding London...

 

[Buttsy]

You make it sound like it's out in the country somewhere - it's a perfectly straightforward walk to the centre and there are buses to pretty much anywhere beyond in the city from the station forecourt or the road outside. The free Chester buses were axed the best part of a year ago unless my memory is playing tricks on me.

The location has nothing to do with it being GWR, the old LNWR/LMS station was right next door to it as well. Given the physical geography of Oxford, short of smashing the railway through the centre (which the university's colleges wouldn't allow), it would have been hard to get a station much closer to the heart of the city in any case.

The original thinking as to where the station would go was south of the Isis at Folly Bridge as, I understand, the Bristol line was to run via Wallingford and Oxford from Maidenhead. The terrain and the Universities put a kybosh on that idea, hence why the Bristol line missed one of the more important towns (at that time) en route.

 

[jopsuk]

If that route had happened, I wonder if "Swindon" (or its equivalent) would have been in the same place? It is after all very much a railway town. Reading almost certainly wouldn't have been the large town it is today.

 

[Edvid]

There is just one flaw in that statement...Last I heard, Chiltern were paying a premium to the DfT.

When you take Government Subsidies (franchise subsidies + revenue support) and Network Grants into account, the only true contributor among all franchises is First Capital Connect. In the latest financial year, Government Subsidies to Chiltern were ~1p per passenger mile, plus ~12.4pppm in Network Grants to Network Rail for their territory. DfT - Rail subsidy per passenger mile

 

[transmanche]

How about a connecting free bus shuttle (like Chester

Sadly no longer a free service. Although (allegedly) it now costs the local council more in concessionary travel payments than the contracted service cost to run!

 

[HSTEd]

There is just one flaw in that statement...Last I heard, Chiltern were paying a premium to the DfT.

They may be paying a premium, but it is paid for by money churned to them through lower track access charges thanks to the collosal grant to Network Rail.
Only one TOC is in net contributions according to the DfT's own figures, and that is First Capital Connect.

and the DfT arent funding any part of the evergreen improvments.
Im personally hoping someone also joins the croxley rail link into EWR proposals. So I can get to Bristol via Didcot or Oxford avoiding London...

Yes, which just means it will be an effective PFI as I am pretty sure Chiltern will be able to extort increased subsidy payments in return for funding the capital cost of the improvements.

 

[joeykins82]

My understanding was that NR borrowed the money for the Chiltern route upgrades which Chiltern were then repaying via a surcharge on the track access fees which will be passed on to any future franchisee if Chiltern are unsuccessful in retaining the franchise when it comes up for renewal prior to the surcharge period lapsing. This is totally separate to any subsidy/premium agreement between TOC & DfT.

 

[giblets]

Great News that this is finally going ahead, hopefully take a lot of the traffic off the A34, and the roads into Oxford. Should have been started ages ago, will this make the East_west construction any easier? (compared to current plans), or was this taken in mind?

 

[LexyBoy]

If that route had happened, I wonder if "Swindon" (or its equivalent) would have been in the same place? It is after all very much a railway town. Reading almost certainly wouldn't have been the large town it is today.

I think Reading would still have been on the route; the Chilterns prevent a more northerly alignment without giving up Brunel's "billiard table" vision (or massive amounts of tunnelling). Plus, Reading was already a fairly significant town at the time the line was built.

The original thinking as to where the station would go was south of the Isis at Folly Bridge as, I understand, the Bristol line was to run via Wallingford and Oxford from Maidenhead. The terrain and the Universities put a kybosh on that idea, hence why the Bristol line missed one of the more important towns (at that time) en route.

Interesting; I knew the University (where were the others?!) blocked the railway initially and eventually only accepted a station some distance from the town. I had thought the original plan was for Wallingford and Abingdon then west. I'd think that a route through Oxford would be disadvantaged by presumably having to tunnel under the hills round Botley, which could be easily avoided with a slightly more southerly route.

Anyway, back on-topic - very exciting news. Oxford looks set to become quite a hub with this and Chiltern's Marylebone services (and maybe services to Swindon and Bristol which are poorly served currently).

 

[LE Greys]

If that route had happened, I wonder if "Swindon" (or its equivalent) would have been in the same place? It is after all very much a railway town. Reading almost certainly wouldn't have been the large town it is today.

Well, Swindon was reputedly chosen by the fall of Brunel's sandwich from a carriage window (although it did happen to land right by a canal junction where the line's gradient profile changes) so it seems possible that GWR HQ might have been at Abingdon or Sapperton. That, of course, depends on whether he still saw Bristol as the ideal destination when Gloucester via a Sapperton tunnel (as the Thames and Svern Canal used to run) would work more effectively.

 

[Eagle]

And if the GWR didn't build to Bristol immediately, then the LSWR certainly would have, and Basingstoke might not have existed as we know it today.

 

[cle]

I think Reading would still have been on the route; the Chilterns prevent a more northerly alignment without giving up Brunel's "billiard table" vision (or massive amounts of tunnelling). Plus, Reading was already a fairly significant town at the time the line was built.



Interesting; I knew the University (where were the others?!) blocked the railway initially and eventually only accepted a station some distance from the town. I had thought the original plan was for Wallingford and Abingdon then west. I'd think that a route through Oxford would be disadvantaged by presumably having to tunnel under the hills round Botley, which could be easily avoided with a slightly more southerly route.

Anyway, back on-topic - very exciting news. Oxford looks set to become quite a hub with this and Chiltern's Marylebone services (and maybe services to Swindon and Bristol which are poorly served currently).

Hub indeed! There will be 2tph to Marylebone, 2tph to Bletchley (and MK/Bedford) and 2tph to Reading (E/W) - all of which don't operate today. Quite an increase.

All this with electrification too - so lots of development!

Maybe they should plan a new island, as per Cambridge.

 

[Eagle]

Hub indeed! There will be 2tph to Marylebone, 2tph to Bletchley (and MK/Bedford) and 2tph to Reading (E/W) - all of which don't operate today. Quite an increase.

But minus the 1tph to Bicester that currently operates. Still a net increase of five departures an hour.