Chiltern Oxford Link completed

[jimm]

Well, Swindon was reputedly chosen by the fall of Brunel's sandwich from a carriage window (although it did happen to land right by a canal junction where the line's gradient profile changes) so it seems possible that GWR HQ might have been at Abingdon or Sapperton. That, of course, depends on whether he still saw Bristol as the ideal destination when Gloucester via a Sapperton tunnel (as the Thames and Svern Canal used to run) would work more effectively.

Don't think there was much doubt that Bristol was the ideal destination - since it was the merchants of Bristol who were among the people paying him to build the railway. The point was to serve the port of Bristol as it tried to fend off competition for Atlantic trade from Liverpool. It's pretty clear from Brunel's own diaries for March and April 1833 when he made his preliminary survey that he looked at two ways to go west of Reading, the route chosen, via the Vale of White Horse and Swindon - which he recommended as the best - or via the Vale of Pewsey.

Maybe they should plan a new island, as per Cambridge.

Do you actually know Oxford station? There are two choices - flatten the lot and shuffle things over so you can squeeze two island platforms, plus two freight through lines, into the existing space, with a new station building further east on the existing forecourt, or move down the line to Oxpens, where there is more room to work with.

 

[The Planner]

The latest idea I saw was to create loops round the outside so the existing platforms became islands. The current station building would have to go.

 

[tripleseis]

A new station by Oxpens might be able to tie-in with the Westgate/West End redevelopment (if they ever get round to doing it). That part of the city centre is in dire need of sorting out (that hideous multi-story needs to go for starters). It would create a nicer pedestrian walking route into the city centre.

 

[jimm]

The latest idea I saw was to create loops round the outside so the existing platforms became islands. The current station building would have to go.

It's far more complicated than that - that's why I said you have to flatten the lot and move everything over.

On the platform 2 side there is now a road where there used to be tracks, so you can't just create loops outside - and even if you could put track back, all the existing buildings and canopy that side would have to go.

Somewhere or other - I think in the paperwork for the Evergreen3 application - it is clearly stated that the new bay platforms for Chiltern on the former parcels platforms and parcels depot and the short-stay car park are positioned specifically so that they would form the north end of any future eastern island platform if the station is rebuilt.

 

[RPM]

There was talk at one time of building a new platform on the other side of Botley Road adjacent to the long stay car park. Has that died a death or is it still an option?

 

[The Planner]

Is isn't dead as a lot of work was done with it, one of the options was for that to be an island platform to create two faces. That would form the other end of the through line from the Chiltern platforms. I think it is best described as "dormant".

 

[jimm]

However, the final worked-up option Network Rail and the County Council plumped for was a single platform with a covered footbridge over the Botley Road. Images here http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/archive...0073.All_change_for_new_look_Oxford_platform/ but they can't be expanded.

Nothing happened as the Government refused to fund the county council's share of the bill.

As a result of electrification, resignalling, Evergreen3 and East West all coming along in a rush, the Government said in the High Level Output Statement in the summer that there would be money for improvements to the station and wider Oxford area capacity enhancements. There is a joint working party involving the city and county councils, Network Rail and the train operators looking at the future shape of the station. Something may emerge from this early next year.

It is to be hoped whatever they come up with is a bit more ambitious than this bay platform, which is really not much more than a sticking plaster for the problems with the present station.

 

[LE Greys]

Don't think there was much doubt that Bristol was the ideal destination - since it was the merchants of Bristol who were among the people paying him to build the railway. The point was to serve the port of Bristol as it tried to fend off competition for Atlantic trade from Liverpool. It's pretty clear from Brunel's own diaries for March and April 1833 when he made his preliminary survey that he looked at two ways to go west of Reading, the route chosen, via the Vale of White Horse and Swindon - which he recommended as the best - or via the Vale of Pewsey.

You're right, of course. I knew that as well. <smacks forehead> Thinking too fast here.

 

[cm39275]

My Ideas for Oxford station whould be to keep the station in its current position, with the addition of the 8 coach bays that Chiltern are going to installe for evergreen on what is the current ex-parcels bays to the north end of the station. I whould also build 2 bay platforms which can handle 12 coach trains, so incorparating the councils plan of having a bay platform to the south off the Botley road, and to ease conflicting moves to and from these new bay platforms I whould install a dive over by using part of the north end of Hinksey yard, this whould enable trains that are terminating at oxford to gain acess to the two new south facing bays or to platfrom 1 so they can enter the up carrige sidges if they are going to turn straight round and head back to Paddington. This then means the current platform two becomes dedicated to all service to the cotsworlds and northbound crosscountrys, the curretn platfrom 1 whould still be used for london bound servces from the cotsworld line and southbound crosscountrys. Service which start and terminate at Oxford from the south whould use the new south facing bays, Chilterns Marylebone service whould use the bay intended for Evergreen even some off the east to west links service which start and terminate at oxfrd could use these as well, but what about the east to west link service which are planed to go beyond Oxford well these can use platform 1 southbound but northbound one could use either platforms 1 or 2, if they use platform 1 using the earlier overpass i mention this whould eliminate conflicting moves at Oxford north Junction.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm assuming that the go ahead now means that the whole alignment from the beginning will be double track with electrification clearance, as would be required when East-West is running, and not just the stripped down Evergreen 3 proposals as originally planned, with those long single track sections, single platform at Islip, etc?

Having just read the DfT decision letter on the Chiltern Bicester-Oxford project, it is clear that the approval is independent of the East-West project:
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/twa-20121017a/twa-20121017a.pdf

Extract:
34. The Department for Transport announced on 16 July 2012 that the East West Rail project (the western end of which would, if authorised, use the Oxford-Bicester line) had been included in the High Level Output Specification (“HLOS”) for 2014 to 2019 as a committed scheme for funding purposes. The Secretary of State considers that this does not alter the case for approving Chiltern’s scheme because the likely impacts of East West Rail operations have been taken into account in assessing the effects of Phase 2 of Chiltern’s scheme and have been sufficiently addressed in the proposed mitigation measures. He is satisfied that while the East West Rail project remains to be fully defined and authorised, the HLOS announcement does not lead him to a different conclusion on the matters before him in deciding Chiltern’s application.

Therefore we should not expect the East-West enhancements to be implemented at the same time as Evergreen 3.
NR will have to design and plan the E-W work and get separate DfT approval, which will no doubt take a few years.

 

[The Planner]

I think it is a lot further forward than that as there have been several options performance modelled already for E-W. I would be surprised if it wasn't far off single option selection.

 

[joeykins82]

From http://www.chiltern-evergreen3.co.uk/index.php/faqs#construction-electrified

The Chiltern line will not be electrified, although all new structures such as bridges will be built to provide clearance for any future electrification. This is standard railway practice.

From http://www.chiltern-evergreen3.co.uk/index.php/project-overview

The route between Bicester and Oxford will also be used for the East-West Rail Link. This project is sponsored by a range of public bodies, including the relevant local authorities, and seeks to reopen the rail link between Oxford, Bletchley/Milton Keynes, and East Anglia. The Chiltern Railways scheme will materially assist in the delivery of the East-West project, and Chiltern has thus established a close working relationship with the East-West Rail Consortium. This ensures that the two projects complement each other, and that Chiltern's design work takes full account of East-West Rail needs.

 

[aylesbury]

The 280 bus from Aylesbury is an excellent way to Oxford outside of rush hours with a 15 minute headway .But when the line to Oxford opens the possibility of going to Haddenham and joining a train to Oxford is a winner.Connections into services to Didcot and connections west and south are the real winner to travelers from the north of Oxford.

 

[Ironside]

Since the station isn't pretty then pulling it down and rebuilding it with something bigger and better would be the best idea if the money can be found.

 

[MK Tom]

The 280 bus from Aylesbury is an excellent way to Oxford outside of rush hours with a 15 minute headway .But when the line to Oxford opens the possibility of going to Haddenham and joining a train to Oxford is a winner.Connections into services to Didcot and connections west and south are the real winner to travelers from the north of Oxford.

Likewise the journey will be possible all the way with only one train change at Risborough which many people will probably do. Aylesbury is an exceptionally badly connected town across all modes of transport and both Evergreen 3 and East West Rail will benefit it and its dwindling economic viability enormously.

 

[jimm]

Having just read the DfT decision letter on the Chiltern Bicester-Oxford project, it is clear that the approval is independent of the East-West project:
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/twa-20121017a/twa-20121017a.pdf

Therefore we should not expect the East-West enhancements to be implemented at the same time as Evergreen 3.
NR will have to design and plan the E-W work and get separate DfT approval, which will no doubt take a few years.

The only thing that is clear is that you haven't read the press release put out by Chiltern on October 18, which says the following:

The recently announced East West Rail project will also benefit from Chiltern’s new line from Oxford to London with both routes using the line between Oxford and Bicester. Chiltern Railways will now work in partnership with the East West Rail team to determine a joint project approach.

Hope that's clear enough. They are smart enough to realise that doing all the work in one go makes sense. Chiltern did all the basic work determining what was required to reinstate a double-track railway throughout a long time ago and have designs for a double-track station at Islip (which was not required in the plain vanilla basic Evergreen3) ready to go, to name but one example.

Chiltern aren't going to want to launch a new service and then see it hobbled by further work on the line for EastWest, are they? There is a big window between now and 2015 to get a lot of work done, with the heavy stuff likely to start no later than early summer next year, if not sooner. Chiltern have had contractors lined up for a very long time now, so it's really a question of how long they need to get geared up.

Of course the approval is separate from East West, because it is approval for the Transport and Works Act Order Chiltern had applied for in order to implement the work required for Evergreen3, not anything else, but in effect it says it is fine to improve the existing operational railway between Oxford and Bicester.

Another order, or something similar, will presumably be required for Bicester-Bletchley.

The 280 bus from Aylesbury is an excellent way to Oxford outside of rush hours with a 15 minute headway

but most people want to travel in the rush hour, when Oxford traffic is not at all excellent, hence, as you say, the likelihood of rail being a very attractive option at those times of the day.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Likewise the journey will be possible all the way with only one train change at Risborough which many people will probably do. Aylesbury is an exceptionally badly connected town across all modes of transport and both Evergreen 3 and East West Rail will benefit it and its dwindling economic viability enormously.

Going back to an earlier point in the topic, this assumes that the OXF-MYB services will be calling at Princes Risborough, which I am pretty confident they wont.

 

[barrykas]

Going back to an earlier point in the topic, this assumes that the OXF-MYB services will be calling at Princes Risborough, which I am pretty confident they wont.

I would have guessed it'd be Marylebone - High Wycombe - Princes Risborough - Haddenham & Thame Parkway - Bicester Town - Oxford myself, if only due to the long signal sections between Princes Risborough and Bicester.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I still think you will struggle to get the fabled 66 minute journey time with all of those stops.

MYB - HWY - BIT - Water Eaton - OXF is my guess. Maybe there will be an express with this stopping pattern and a semi fast which calls at Princes Risborough, Haddenham & Thame and Islip each hour, but will that be attractive to the people who Chiltern are trying to tempt onto their trains? I think this is more about having an attractive London - Oxford service and less about making convoluted connections between middle sized towns in Buckinghamshire & Oxford a bit easier.

 

[cle]

I still think you will struggle to get the fabled 66 minute journey time with all of those stops.

MYB - HWY - BIT - Water Eaton - OXF is my guess. Maybe there will be an express with this stopping pattern and a semi fast which calls at Princes Risborough, Haddenham & Thame and Islip each hour, but will that be attractive to the people who Chiltern are trying to tempt onto their trains? I think this is more about having an attractive London - Oxford service and less about making convoluted connections between middle sized towns in Buckinghamshire & Oxford a bit easier.

I think that's the exact stopping pattern, with the odd Islip thrown in of course.

I guess that in peaks there will be a few random stops like Seer Green as they do a fair bit of skip stopping to enable most shacks to have one or two fasts, and to path better.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I dont know much about Islip at all. In terms of elsewhere the Chilterns, which I am familiar with, is it the same kind of size as somewhere like Kings Sutton, Lapworth or one of the other village stations which are extremely quiet outside of peak hours? Passenger numbers seem to suggest less than a hundred people a day use the place, but is that due to the size of the local population or the service the place gets? (or both?) Will having a better service to Oxford and a direct service to London see Islip's numbers significantly increase over time?

 

[The Planner]

Spot on with that, Islip is tiny and isn't more than a 10 minute drive to Kidlington or the new Water Eaton Pwy.

 

[Metrailway]

I've always thought that a west facing curve at Claydon LNE Junction would be nice to have so Aylesbury - Oxford was possible. Even though an indirect route, I bet an Aylesbury - Oxford shuttle would be quicker than road and take a decent amount of traffic off the A41 and/or A418. Would also allow a diversionary route to Marylebone if anything happened on the Chiltern Main Line.

 

[cle]

It always adds flexibility I guess and for freight too. Would give AVP another train also. I'd like Quainton Road reopened too, but it might not be viable.

Fantasy hat on, but it could maybe run from Watford Junction via the Croxley link, adding another orbital route.

Linking Rickmansworth and Amersham to Oxford might be of some use I suppose? No idea, but it'd create more intra-Bucks/Oxon journey possibilities, and again help reduce driving.

It could maybe be the train that stops at Islip, if stops are required...

 

[barrykas]

I think this is more about having an attractive London - Oxford service and less about making convoluted connections between middle sized towns in Buckinghamshire & Oxford a bit easier.

My understanding is that the key market for Chiltern's Oxford services is from the Heartlands area, rather than London, as there's no way to achieve an end to end journey time of under an hour.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[LexyBoy]

I'm sure they could grab a sizeable share of the market if they wished to though, putting themselves at an intermediate price point between FGW (or whoever) and the X90/Tube.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

But given how difficult getting to Oxford station is for a lot of people who live in Oxford because of the geography of the place and the nature of the roads in the centre then enticing Oxford residents to use Water Eaton Parkway for London is the battle that Chiltern are trying to fight?

I accept that getting people based in London who are headed towards Oxford to use Marylebone instead of Paddington will be much more difficult to do, but for those who currently sit in traffic jams in Oxford every morning, going from Water Eaton to Marylebone might offer a shorter door to door time surely?

 

[jimm]

I'm sure they could grab a sizeable share of the market if they wished to though, putting themselves at an intermediate price point between FGW (or whoever) and the X90/Tube.

And that intermediate price point would be where? FGW offer advance OXF-PAD singles as low as £5 via their website, so if you can shop around they are an absolute bargain. Find two of them that suit your journey and you are paying less than a single on the M40 coaches.

Chiltern's key target is traffic between Water Eaton and London - Oxford station is a secondary consideration.

Current use of Islip is no guide to what may happen there in future - there are likely to be a number of people currently driving to bicester North who would welcome the opportunity to leave the car at home and walk to their local station instead.

Other than limited local traffic to and from Bicester, for obvious reasons the key flow at Islip is to and from Oxford, with some traffic going beyond to the likes of Didcot and Reading. Preserving the ability to travel in and out of Oxford at something like the current frequency is a key issue for the locals - traffic was slowly dying as a result of timetable cuts in the mid-2000s but since the current enhanced frequency came in from 2009, it has bounced back in a big way.

Draft timetables Chiltern has come up with previously have shown a skimpier post-Evergreen3 Islip service than at present, with some very big gaps between trains, though obviously some East West stops could help maintain Oxford frequencies. One version was posted on the Oxford Bicester Rail Action Group website, based on what was said at the public inquiry, with eight trains each way, rather than current 12 branch trains.

http://www.obrag.org.uk/375/possible-islip-timetable-post-evergreen-3-upgrade/#more-375

All that is said on a powerpoint presentation on the Evergreen3 website about train services is

2 trains each hour Marylebone-Oxford
London – Oxford 66 minutes
London – Water Eaton Parkway 58 minutes
Bicester - Oxford 14 minutes
High Wycombe – Oxford 38 minutes
All trains will call at High Wycombe, Bicester Town, Water Eaton Parkway and Oxford
Selected trains will also call at Islip
Chiltern “Clubman” rolling stock
* exact times and service pattern subject to change

 

[joeykins82]

Presumably Chiltern will take a slice of the Any Permitted tickets which are sold for London-Oxford journeys and both FGW and Chiltern will offer cheaper one operator only tickets, same as London-Birmingham with VT/LM/Chiltern all competing. We'll also likely see single operator only season tickets which might tempt people on a tighter budget.

Plus, Chiltern's evening peak restrictions aren't as strict; an Any Permitted off-peak ticket could get you to Oxford from Marylebone but wouldn't be valid on most evening peak trains out of Paddington.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure they're mostly after the London-Oxford market.

 

[barrykas]

Presumably Chiltern will take a slice of the Any Permitted tickets which are sold for London-Oxford journeys and both FGW and Chiltern will offer cheaper one operator only tickets, same as London-Birmingham with VT/LM/Chiltern all competing. We'll also likely see single operator only season tickets which might tempt people on a tighter budget.

My guess would be that Chiltern will introduce "via High Wycombe" walk-up fares and "Chiltern only" Advance fares, as per the existing tickets for Leamington and points North thereof.

But there's a good 18 months or so before they need to worry about specifics like that, such that they're in the system when the service starts.

Cheers,

Barry