Chiltern Oxford Link completed

[route:oxford]

How many more times do you need to be told? It just is not going to happen. The route via Thame and Wheatley was a rural backwater, with single track, not some lost main line like the Great Central, never mind the state the route is in now. So it's a bit shorter, so what?

Just rebuilding Oxford-Bicester and creating the chord line plus station work will cost £130m. What on earth do you think what you suggest would cost? Why do you think Chiltern took a look and decided against the idea? Especially once the stark staring obvious benefits of creating Water Eaton Parkway are factored in.

The demise of fotopic took with it a gallery of photos taken along the route from Princes Risborough about eight or so years ago, showing what a dismal state it was in then, never mind now. If you had seen that, you might understand what a total fantasy reopening between Cowley and Princes Risborough is.

That's the trouble with the rail industry. There is the official rule that prevents a former line being re-opened on any route - with the exception of the original.

Just like the official rule that prevents the East Coast and West Coast mainline being operated by the same firm.

 

[The Planner]

Far from it, plenty of new schemes and ideas get looked at but never get anywhere due to them not washing their face cost or affordability wise. Thame to Cowley is just an impossibility now as has been mentioned previously, just too much of it is built on and a new route is implausible.

 

[tbtc]

Just like the official rule that prevents the East Coast and West Coast mainline being operated by the same firm.

Where's that rule?

How come nobody noticed it when Virgin were bidding for the ECML franchise a decade ago?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Maybe that's why they didn't win.

 

[route:oxford]

Where's that rule?

It's kept locked in the the book safe at the DfT. Next to the verbal agreement stamp.

 

[mr_jrt]

Far from it, plenty of new schemes and ideas get looked at but never get anywhere due to them not washing their face cost or affordability wise. Thame to Cowley is just an impossibility now as has been mentioned previously, just too much of it is built on and a new route is implausible.

There's actually very, very little of the required route built on. Wheatley has the only really large chunk that has been built on, but you don't have to use the same alignment. You could probably manage far fewer demolitions and straighten out the route if you so wanted. Purchase orders are also not exactly an impossibility if need be. They're just buildings after all.

Besides, I never claimed it would be easy or cheap by any means, but it is quite viable if factors come into play that alter the BCR balance. Just so happens the Bicester chord is a quick win that gives the majority of the benefits for much less outlay.

 

[Andyjs247]

There's actually very, very little of the required route built on. Wheatley has the only really large chunk that has been built on, but you don't have to use the same alignment. You could probably manage far fewer demolitions and straighten out the route if you so wanted. Purchase orders are also not exactly an impossibility if need be. They're just buildings after all.

Besides, I never claimed it would be easy or cheap by any means, but it is quite viable if factors come into play that alter the BCR balance. Just so happens the Bicester chord is a quick win that gives the majority of the benefits for much less outlay.

The main obstacle is the M40 Birmingham extension and the Oxford service area at Junction 8A Wheatley. It would likely require a lengthy new alignment to avoid the services but given enough money and willpower it could make sense. I really don't see it happening any time soon though.

 

[calc7]

This is an interesting point, one which hasn't been touched upon much in all the excitement about "competition".

If Chiltern had got their Oxford plans sorted out a decade ago, they could have had many years of providing a fast alternative to the FGW service between London and Oxford.

However they are going to be introducing their new Marylebone service a couple of years before the London - Reading - Oxford line is upgraded with electrification/ IEP/ 110mph running even on the "slow" services... they may have picked a bad time to tap into that market (if the end to end market was what they were chasing after).

Maybe they will get a first-mover advantage, and loyalty from commuters who are upset at the current woe and even worse situation as the electrification happens?

 

[The Planner]

There's actually very, very little of the required route built on. Wheatley has the only really large chunk that has been built on, but you don't have to use the same alignment. You could probably manage far fewer demolitions and straighten out the route if you so wanted. Purchase orders are also not exactly an impossibility if need be. They're just buildings after all.

You would be surprised. Tiddington station now has new houses on it, the services as mentioned. Wheatley is in a steep valley and would require something quite dramatic considering what has been built. Then there is Littleworth and Horspath where great chunks on the embankment have gone for houses. The best you could hope for is a P&R by the services but then that detracts from Haddenham and Water Eaton.

 

[aylesbury]

I wonder what design the station at Winslow will be as it will be situated next to the A413 ,car parking could be a problem ?

 

[route:oxford]

I wonder what design the station at Winslow will be as it will be situated next to the A413 ,car parking could be a problem ?

Park&ride is always a solution, never a problem.

I imagine the station would be in the cutting, the car-park to East of the A413 to the North of the cutting.

 

[jimm]

There's actually very, very little of the required route built on. Wheatley has the only really large chunk that has been built on, but you don't have to use the same alignment. You could probably manage far fewer demolitions and straighten out the route if you so wanted. Purchase orders are also not exactly an impossibility if need be. They're just buildings after all.

Besides, I never claimed it would be easy or cheap by any means, but it is quite viable if factors come into play that alter the BCR balance. Just so happens the Bicester chord is a quick win that gives the majority of the benefits for much less outlay.

No it is not viable - it is a fantasy - an insanely expensive fantasy at that. And one Chiltern were not prepared to entertain.

Apart from Wheatley village, as has been said, other parts of the alignment in that area were destroyed when the A40 bypass and M40 were built. Farmers have also removed the formation west of Thame. And the bats will be staying put at horspath tunnel, so that is a rather large and expensive obstacle to overcome there. Nor is there anything like the London commuter traffic potential in the south of Oxford that there is in the north around Water Eaton.

Maybe they will get a first-mover advantage, and loyalty from commuters who are upset at the current woe and even worse situation as the electrification happens?

Much of the "current woe" is outside FGW's control. And your evidence for the statement "even worse situation" is what? Most of the wiring work is going to be done overnight. Reading rebuilding is going to be completed ahead of the original schedule. If the post-electrification GW route delivers a 45-minute express journey and is punctual, people for whom Oxford station is the logical first choice will go that way. For those for whom Water Eaton is the more convenient station to use, they will likely choose Chiltern, though it is worth bearing in mind the rather limited onward travel options available at Marylebone, never mind the impact of Crossrail when that opens.

 

[barrykas]

though it is worth bearing in mind the rather limited onward travel options available at Marylebone, never mind the impact of Crossrail when that opens.

Fsvo "limited". The walk from Marylebone to Baker Street isn't that much further than the walk from The Lawn at Paddington to the H&C platforms, and it's certainly less far than the walk from The Lawn to the car park at Paddington, which is beyond the country end of platform 1.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[RPM]

The quality of the available rolling stock will also be a factor when pax chose which way to go to London from Oxford. I don't know what the latest news is, but the last thing I saw was that cascaded 319s would be used on the Thames Valley services. Even if thoroughly refurbished we will still be looking at appalling window alignment and doors that bang and rattle every time another train passes. Personally I would prefer a slightly longer journey in the comfort of a 168. However if new stock is authorised for the Thames Valley the balance might tip the other way.

 

[The Ham]

The quality of the available rolling stock will also be a factor when pax chose which way to go to London from Oxford. I don't know what the latest news is, but the last thing I saw was that cascaded 319s would be used on the Thames Valley services. Even if thoroughly refurbished we will still be looking at appalling window alignment and doors that bang and rattle every time another train passes. Personally I would prefer a slightly longer journey in the comfort of a 168. However if new stock is authorised for the Thames Valley the balance might tip the other way.

I thought that it was the branch lines which were EMU's (possibly 319's, but possibly new stock able to run above 100mph to have a unified fleet which would reduce the impact of them running on the main line with IEP). The main line was getting IEP, including services to Oxford which would allow the bi-model versions to run beyond the wires with the services through Moreton-in-Marsh.

 

[hwl]

I thought that it was the branch lines which were EMU's (possibly 319's, but possibly new stock able to run above 100mph to have a unified fleet which would reduce the impact of them running on the main line with IEP). The main line was getting IEP, including services to Oxford which would allow the bi-model versions to run beyond the wires with the services through Moreton-in-Marsh.

I thought the conclusion that had been reached on the massive IEP thread was that through services would be IEP, with Oxford Terminators being refurbished 319s or new rolling stock depending on the what the new franchisee decided to do.
(Not enough units to cover Oxford terminators with the number of IEPS ordered for GW franchise?)

 

[andyfrommk]

Any news on the building of Water Eaton Parkway?
Have they Demolished the grain towers? cut the turf?(so to speak)
Wikipedia only mentions a planned opening date of 2013 and google searches prove fruitless.

 

[tbtc]

The quality of the available rolling stock will also be a factor when pax chose which way to go to London from Oxford. I don't know what the latest news is, but the last thing I saw was that cascaded 319s would be used on the Thames Valley services. Even if thoroughly refurbished we will still be looking at appalling window alignment and doors that bang and rattle every time another train passes. Personally I would prefer a slightly longer journey in the comfort of a 168. However if new stock is authorised for the Thames Valley the balance might tip the other way.

I think most people would take a 260m IEP instead of a three/ four coach 168 - a guaranteed seat counts for a lot more than five minutes here or there.

 

[Buttsy]

Any news on the building of Water Eaton Parkway?
Have they Demolished the grain towers? cut the turf?(so to speak)
Wikipedia only mentions a planned opening date of 2013 and google searches prove fruitless.

The grain silo is still there, and might have ended up being listed...

 

[barrykas]

Any news on the building of Water Eaton Parkway?
Have they Demolished the grain towers? cut the turf?(so to speak)
Wikipedia only mentions a planned opening date of 2013 and google searches prove fruitless.

Given the SoS/D(a)fT only gave Chiltern permission to start on the 29th of October, I think it's fairly safe to say that work "on the ground" is some way away from beginning.

Apart from anything else, I'd guess the EG3 project team will want to consult with the East West Rail team to work out the best approach to take to avoid major disruption resulting from EWR work once EG3 Phase 2 is open.

 

[andyfrommk]

The grain silo is still there, and might have ended up being listed...

Thanks.
I wonder what they'll do if they are listed, I went past Stewartby brickworks and they had one of the old buildings all lit up from the outside

Given the SoS/D(a)fT only gave Chiltern permission to start on the 29th of October, I think it's fairly safe to say that work "on the ground" is some way away from beginning.

Apart from anything else, I'd guess the EG3 project team will want to consult with the East West Rail team to work out the best approach to take to avoid major disruption resulting from EWR work once EG3 Phase 2 is open.

Thanks, I suppose they'll have to push the 2013 date back then

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks, I suppose they'll have to push the 2013 date back then

The date is 2015 now.

 

[jimm]

Fsvo "limited". The walk from Marylebone to Baker Street isn't that much further than the walk from The Lawn at Paddington to the H&C platforms, and it's certainly less far than the walk from The Lawn to the car park at Paddington, which is beyond the country end of platform 1.

Cheers,

Barry

Sorry, but I'd call one Tube line and some bus stops limited - last time I looked, Melcombe Street and Baker Street didn't have a roof - you won't get wet at Paddington. And if car parks have much to do with it - who takes a car into central London anyway? - the score there is Paddington 1, Marylebone 0. When Crossrail opens, that's another big connectivity win for Paddington.

I thought the conclusion that had been reached on the massive IEP thread was that through services would be IEP

It's not a conclusion, it is a fact. Oxford terminating fasts and Cotswold Line expresses going on west of Oxford will be IEPs. If FGW secure the new franchise and the DfT sanctions GW services to Stratford-upon-Avon again, the odds are IEPs will also get to Stratford via Banbury and Leamington. With the suggestion that Oxford semi-fasts should run at 110mph and the number of 319s available rather outstripped by all the new jobs they are supposed to do in future, new GW electric units of some sort may well be needed anyway.

I suppose they'll have to push the 2013 date back then

Try reading back up the thread, say the first post on page 1.

The grain silo is still there, and might have ended up being listed...

The grain silo at Water Eaton is not listed, it's just an eyesore. It has not been demolished up until now because it is a great lump of reinforced concrete from the 1940s which will take a lot of effort to bring down. No-one has ever wanted to spend the money on the job unless there was a reason to do it. Now there is.

I think it's fairly safe to say that work "on the ground" is some way away from beginning.

That would depend on how you define work on the ground - vegetation clearance is bound to happen over the next few months to avoid any problems with nesting birds later next year. When the Cotswold Line was redoubled, tree-cutting took place in March 2009, long before the engineers got going in July that year.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks, I suppose they'll have to push the 2013 date back then

Was that date ever possible or likely? The original commencement of services was going to be with the Dec 2014 timetable, ie for the 2015 railway year. The dates are shown on the original Evergreen 3 website:

If you get permission for the scheme, when will construction commence and how long will it last?
If Chiltern Railways is granted the necessary permissions to go ahead with the scheme, construction is likely to commence in the summer of 2011 (although the exact timing will depend when permissions are granted). The construction programme for the Phase 1 works along the whole of the proposed route is planned to take around 12 to 15 months.

When will services commence?
Services between London Marylebone and Oxford are planned to commence by the end of 2014.

http://www.chiltern-evergreen3.co.uk/index.php/faqs#planning

Despite at least a two year delay on the original dates, they still hope to open 'during 2015'.

 

[Andyjs247]

No it is not viable - it is a fantasy - an insanely expensive fantasy at that. And one Chiltern were not prepared to entertain.

Apart from Wheatley village, as has been said, other parts of the alignment in that area were destroyed when the A40 bypass and M40 were built. Farmers have also removed the formation west of Thame. And the bats will be staying put at horspath tunnel, so that is a rather large and expensive obstacle to overcome there. Nor is there anything like the London commuter traffic potential in the south of Oxford that there is in the north around Water Eaton

I have to agree, rebuilding the route from Kennington Junction to Princes Risborough is not viable - in particular the section between Horspath and Thame where there's just too many obstacles to overcome now. Any deviation from the previous route is also likely to encounter significant opposition from Nimbys - who tend to rather vocal and well resourced even if misguided. According to Saturday's Oxford Mail, Wolvercote residents are making a last ditch appeal for train speeds to be limited. I have to say if people were that concerned about trains, why buy property next to a railway line in the first place!

Chiltern's Oxford-London via Bicester route achieves more benefits for less outlay, even if it is longer. For many people frustrated by chronic congestion around Oxford, the final phase of Evergreen3 can't come soon enough. When it finally does open there's even less point in re-opening via Thame and Wheatley. I suspect there's more likelihood of re-opening Bedford-Sandy-Cambridge; a much more useful route.

 

[jimm]

Was that date ever possible or likely? The original commencement of services was going to be with the Dec 2014 timetable, ie for the 2015 railway year. The dates are shown on the original Evergreen 3 website:

Despite at least a two year delay on the original dates, they still hope to open 'during 2015'.

In fact when the idea was first announced in 2008, the initial target date, though it probably looked pretty optimistic then, was this summer - they did mention the Olympics...

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/archive...er_news)/2430453.New___200m_link_with_London/

 

[andyfrommk]

Seems I've wandered into the answer to my own question

Geoff Plumb's SmugMug site has a picture taken yesterday showing the site is still in use as a Road stone terminal.

If you are reading this, Thanks Geoff

 

[swt_passenger]

In fact when the idea was first announced in 2008, the initial target date, though it probably looked pretty optimistic then, was this summer - they did mention the Olympics...

I wonder if (back in 2008) they were hoping that most of the job would come under permitted development rights, apart from the new Bicester chord.

Certainly by the time I was first aware of the eventual Evergreen 3 website they were expecting full TWA order procedures, and the Dec 2014 target.

 

[Andyjs247]

According to the Oxford Mail last week, Chiltern's Oxford to London rail link could open by Easter 2015, if a final legal challenge can be resolved.

"WORK on the new £200m Oxford to London Marylebone rail link could start within months if a legal challenge is resolved.

Chiltern Railways confirmed enabling works along the line had started and major work could start at either the end of April or early in May.

But there is one hurdle to still in the way after a legal challenge was launched against the Department for Transport over the process it used to grant the rail operator a transport works order.

The Government has applied to the High Court to expedite the case, on the grounds that it is a 'significant' project, and will find out within the next fortnight whether the move has been approved.

Chiltern Railways’ chief project engineer Stephen Barker told Bicester town councillors last week that his firm’s legal advisers were 'confident' the challenge would fail."

Elsewhere the Buckingham Advertiser reports that work will begin on East West Rail in 2 years. More here.

The Oxford to Bicester section would also be the first section of East West Rail; it would include the construction of infrastructure for electrified East West Rail services and Chiltern Railways’ Evergreen 3 project.

The next phase of East West Rail will be Bicester to Bletchley and Aylesbury to Milton Keynes, followed by Bletchley to Bedford. Services could run between Aylesbury and Milton Keynes, Bicester and Bletchley by December 2017.

 

[L&Y Robert]

According to the Oxford Mail last week, Chiltern's Oxford to London rail link could open by Easter 2015, if a final legal challenge can be resolved.

"WORK on the new £200m Oxford to London Marylebone rail link could start within months if a legal challenge is resolved.

.

Does anybody know what work has been started? And where it is /might be happening? Is the "Work" that has been started real On The Ground sort of work, or just some sort of paper shuffling?