Class 142 refurbishment?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Still at least they write their own articles rather than so much content in MR being infomercials written by sponsors

Now then, young sir, Modern Railways is aimed at a certain part of the transport reading market and as such, is often found in industrial management and boardroom areas. Our consultancy had many such monthly publications covering a wide range of industries.

 

[WatcherZero]

However if the article is a promotional tool made up to look like a journalistic article you dont exactly treat it as an impartial and balanced product review now do you

Especielly if it starts something along the lines of...

'Network Rail and Balfour Beatty have just completed refurbishment of line xx near xx, it was a tough job presenting many unique challenges that required custom solutions. However when they had to do xx they turned to company yy because they knew they were the only company to produce product zz, the product is the best in class and offers market leading performance so they knew it was the only product for the job. We then had it fixed in a jiffy, the end.

edutorial sponsored by company yy'

 

[Surreyman]

However if the article is a promotional tool made up to look like a journalistic article you dont exactly treat it as an impartial and balanced product review now do you

Especielly if it starts something along the lines of...

'Network Rail and Balfour Beatty have just completed refurbishment of line xx near xx, it was a tough job presenting many unique challenges that required custom solutions. However when they had to do xx they turned to company yy because they knew they were the only company to produce product zz, the product is the best in class and offers market leading performance so they knew it was the only product for the job. We then had it fixed in a jiffy, the end.

edutorial sponsored by company yy'

Yes but unless you are a complete retard you will be aware of these adverts/sponsored articles/PR exercises, anyway they help to pay for a superb magazine which is very detailed, very accurate and always makes you aware of what is hard fact and what is rumour/conjecture.
Rail magazine has some superb and detailed feature articles but its headlines are more 'Daily Mail' in style and it sometimes reports rumours as if they were hard facts.
My only problem with MR is the technical jargon but I have learned a lot!

 

[northwichcat]

also suggests ideal replacement would be continental style units with a non-underfloor diesel powerpack that could be mid life refitted to electric

Probably the only sensible option. If electrification schemes are only planned up to around 6 years in advance then it's not practical to plan DMU orders or major refurbishments around that, with DMUs having 30 year shelf life and a major refurbishment probably needs 10 more years of regular usage to be justified.

I would guess at the next major electrification scheme to be announced being XC in-fill which won't work towards class 14x or class 15x replacement but could allow a Voyager cascade to replace the HSTs that aren't due to be replaced by IEP.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's an article in the latest edition of RAIL magazine stating that all Class 142s are going to be withdrawn by Angel Trains by 2020.

A key difference between the 142s and the other Pacers is that the 142s are older and seen as an inferior build to the later trains so a 142 DDA complaint refurb is less likely than a 143 or 144 one.

Porterbrook may have drawn up plans for a DDA complaint 143 but that is necessary to decide whether making them complaint really isn't economically viable. How would you really know if you guesstimated the costs or capacity reduction involved?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Rail magazine has some superb and detailed feature articles but its headlines are more 'Daily Mail' in style and it sometimes reports rumours as if they were hard facts. My only problem with MR is the technical jargon but I have learned a lot!

The difference you highlight between Modern Railways magazine and Rail magazine mirror my reasons for taking Modern Railways as my rail magazine of choice, plus the fact that I find Roger Ford and Alan Williams to be two excellent article writers.

 

[jon0844]

Porterbrook may have drawn up plans for a DDA complaint 143 but that is necessary to decide whether making them complaint really isn't economically viable. How would you really know if you guesstimated the costs or capacity reduction involved?

The plans for the 143s look pretty good, and if it means not having to scrap them all - it might just make the difference between making such an upgrade viable or not.

I guess you then weigh up the cost of refreshing the 143s to go another 10-15 years, before being axed for electric replacements... or the idea of building new trains now that can be used diesel today and converted in the future.

The thing that makes me think a refurb is more viable is the fact that I can't see how the Government will manage to ensure an all new fleet by the time the current stock can no longer be used - and I can't see an extension being given as the 2020 deadline was already (IMO) very generous.

 

[northwichcat]

The plans for the 143s look pretty good, and if it means not having to scrap them all - it might just make the difference between making such an upgrade viable or not.

I think the 143 plans make them look like potential replacements for lines that currently get single 153s opposed to running on existing Pacer lines.

Doubled up the 4 car complaint Pacer won't give many more seats than some 2 car DMU trains currently give and not having corridor connectors doesn't allow them to run permanently in 4 car formation with 1 complaint toilet across the 2 sets.

Another alternative could be to forget about the toilets and increase frequency on shorter routes instead but then more units and more crews will be required.

 

[Surreyman]

The plans for the 143s look pretty good, and if it means not having to scrap them all - it might just make the difference between making such an upgrade viable or not.

I guess you then weigh up the cost of refreshing the 143s to go another 10-15 years, before being axed for electric replacements... or the idea of building new trains now that can be used diesel today and converted in the future.

The thing that makes me think a refurb is more viable is the fact that I can't see how the Government will manage to ensure an all new fleet by the time the current stock can no longer be used - and I can't see an extension being given as the 2020 deadline was already (IMO) very generous.

I wonder if the French have the right idea - Bi-Modes, basically an EMU with a diesel engine(s), as the Electrified network increases, more running under the wires, with the Diesel fired up when 'off juice', would the ROSCOs be happy with that?

 

[edwin_m]

If the ROSCOs think all lines are going to be electrified then they probably won't invest in a bi-mode either.

Not mentioned so far are the Euro-regulations governing diesel engines. A new DMU or even a new engine in an existing unit would have to comply with the latest tier of emissions standards, which apparently impose so much extra kit that there isn't space to fit it under the floor.

Having said that there must be some lines where electrification can't be justified and a new self-powered unit will eventually be needed. Maybe this will be fuel cell rather than diesel.

 

[northwichcat]

If the ROSCOs think all lines are going to be electrified then they probably won't invest in a bi-mode either.

They don't. They accept some lines are likely to never be electrified and also that some new diesel trains will be required but not on a huge scale.

A true bi-mode train (opposed to one that can be converted) could run a service 50% under the wires using the wires on the section with wires and is also able to act as a sort of rescue train when the wires fail.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think the 143 plans make them look like potential replacements for lines that currently get single 153s opposed to running on existing Pacer lines.

Whilst I find the discussions on the Class 143 of interest, I am more concerned with the Class 142 units that are in profusion on both sides of the Pennines and a fait accompli that requires an answer in terms of service provision currently provided by the Class 142 units in the years to come.

 

[Greybeard33]

There's an article in the latest edition of RAIL magazine stating that all Class 142s are going to be withdrawn by Angel Trains by 2020.

Whilst I find the discussions on the Class 143 of interest, I am more concerned with the Class 142 units that are in profusion on both sides of the Pennines and a fait accompli that requires an answer in terms of service provision currently provided by the Class 142 units in the years to come.

I understand Angel Trains owns all 94 Class 142s, so if the article is correct they are effectively on death row.

Even if the DfT pressures Angel to change its mind, or relaxes the 2020 compliance date, it is difficult to see how any ROSCO could construct a rational business case for investing in refurbishment of these dilapidated bus bodies on rails as they enter their 4th decade. Equally, would any prospective TOC be willing to pay the lease fees and escalating maintenance costs to operate them in the 2020s, considering the consequent effect on its reputation with the travelling public?

Perhaps the various north of England bus operators can look forward to some windfall profits in seven years' time, until the electrification programme catches up?

 

[yorksrob]

I understand Angel Trains owns all 94 Class 142s, so if the article is correct they are effectively on death row.

Even if the DfT pressures Angel to change its mind, or relaxes the 2020 compliance date, it is difficult to see how any ROSCO could construct a rational business case for investing in refurbishment of these dilapidated bus bodies on rails as they enter their 4th decade. Equally, would any prospective TOC be willing to pay the lease fees and escalating maintenance costs to operate them in the 2020s, considering the consequent effect on its reputation with the travelling public?

Perhaps the various north of England bus operators can look forward to some windfall profits in seven years' time, until the electrification programme catches up?

I think that there would be a serious political stink if services were allowed to be reduced due to a lack of strategy on bridging any gaps between 2020 and the arrival of "new" stock, even if the various ROSCO's and TOC's have to be compelled to keep the 142's going until replacements are forthcoming.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With regard to the Class 142 units and the DDA compliance date, no-one can say that the announcement of that compliance date has not allowed enough time to ensure that a resolution of the matter was arrived at.

 

[jon0844]

Can you not make a new fleet of trains that are diesel electric - and then as and when the time comes, simply add in a pantograph and go all-electric? The cost of changing will be factored into the build price, and leasing charges.

Nobody can know for sure how long DMUs will be needed, and a fleet designed to be changed will then have a lifespan of another 30-40 years easily. What can't happen is that there's a sudden disappearance of stock come 2020!

 

[WatcherZero]

When was the last time a new diesel design was built that had a mechanical transmission rather than using electric motors?
I guess its just the legacy Turbostar design still being built with a mechanical transmission?

 

[sprinterguy]

When was the last time a new diesel design was built that had a mechanical transmission rather than using electric motors?
I guess its just the legacy Turbostar design still being built with a mechanical transmission?

At present yes, but that is no doubt because it is the only suburban/regional DMU design being produced at present, where mechanical (Or Hydraulic, as is more prevalent) transmission offers benefits over a diesel-electric set-up on regular stop-start services.

 

[WatcherZero]

If you stuck in a capacitor for storing braking energy (ala hybrid buses) wouldnt diesel electric far out perform a simple diesel, nevermind opening up conversion possibility?

 

[Surreyman]

I think that there would be a serious political stink if services were allowed to be reduced due to a lack of strategy on bridging any gaps between 2020 and the arrival of "new" stock, even if the various ROSCO's and TOC's have to be compelled to keep the 142's going until replacements are forthcoming.

Hmm, time to speculate again on where the cascaded replacements might come from, lets see: -

1. North west Electrification - how many Diesel units directly replaced 15150?
2. Crossrail/GW electrification, indirectly @ 45 165/166 cascade aprox 8 143 & 37 150 Diesel units.
3. Scotrail EGIP, indirectly 170s cascade @ 10 156s + 2 for Cumbernauld. More if Dunblane/Alloa electrified.
4. Bedford - Bletchley, together with Walsall maybe 3 diesel units(probably the remainingg 3 150s).
5. South Wales valleys electrification - 15 142s replaced directly, 15 143s & 10 150s cascaded.
Roughly then thats 23 143, 55 150, 10 156, total 88 to cascade to Northern to replace 79 142, even allows a bit for growth!
My figures are estimates erring on the cautious side, I am not familiar with the north Western route requirements, so if you have more detailed info feel free to correct me.
And yes it does require the Electrification/Cascades/Gauge clearing work to complete well in time for 01/01/2020!!

 

[northwichcat]

Roughly then thats 23 143, 55 150, 10 156, total 88 to cascade to Northern to replace 79 142, even allows a bit for growth!

So what about the North Western and Thames Valley EMU cascade being in place of an order of 200+ DMU vehicles to provide the extra capacity that was needed by December 2012?

I'll ignore the fact that the proposed EMU order for extra capacity and replacements for the Northern class 323s (to allow the 323s to go to LM) were never ordered given that TPE and LM are to get new 350s and Northern got the 322s which weren't originally included. (LM and LO class 150 cascades were allowed for.)

Also haven't you excluded the local services between Manchester and Leeds in your workings? May not be many but should be a few units.

 

[Surreyman]

So what about the North Western and Thames Valley EMU cascade being in place of an order of 200+ DMU vehicles to provide the extra capacity that was needed by December 2012?

Don't get your point???
I know the 200 DMU ordered didn't go ahead because of electrification plans, the Rosco supposedly doesn't want to upgrade 142s to DDA, it appears on paper that enough DMUs could be cascaded to replace them (although the timescale looks impossible), if you scrap the 142s there is virtually no extra capacity.

I'll ignore the fact that the proposed EMU order for extra capacity and replacements for the Northern class 323s (to allow the 323s to go to LM) were never ordered given that TPE and LM are to get new 350s and Northern got the 322s which weren't originally included. (LM and LO class 150 cascades were allowed for.)

Also haven't you excluded the local services between Manchester and Leeds in your workings? May not be many but should be a few units.

Yes but I have no idea how many units would be involved.

It would appear that the powers that be - Dft? are not planning for much in the way of capacity increases for Northern circa 2020.

 

[WatcherZero]

No procurement program has been launched but theres a lot of local planning going on over defining precise rolling stock requirements.

 

[northwichcat]

It would appear that the powers that be - Dft? are not planning for much in the way of capacity increases for Northern circa 2020.

In a recent parliamentary Q&A it was confirmed that Northern will get more carriages but the exact number is subject to the business case put forward.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In a recent parliamentary Q&A it was confirmed that Northern will get more carriages but the exact number is subject to the business case put forward.

I wonder what type of rolling stock that these "carriages" will be.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

In a recent parliamentary Q&A it was confirmed that Northern will get more carriages but the exact number is subject to the business case put forward.

Was this before or after 2020 when the " cattle trucks " railbuses are to be scrapped ?

 

[northwichcat]

I wonder what type of rolling stock that these "carriages" will be.

Should have added they will be EMU carriages but the Coalition government certainly aren't confirming or denying that the previous government's plan for ex-Thameslink units to run on North West routes is still to go ahead. In one document they reworded where it previously referred to cascaded Thameslink units and simply referred to additional EMUs being available on the network for the newly electrified lines.

 

[Greybeard33]

As well as the Class 142s, it has been suggested on previous threads that the Class 153s and Class 155s cannot economically be made PRM-TSI compliant (77 trains, 84 carriages). Also, as jcollins said above, it is by no means a "done deal" that Porterbrook will go ahead and make the Class 143s and 144s compliant (46 trains, 102 carriages).

By my reckoning, including the Class 142s (94 trains, 188 carriages) this is a total of 217 DMUs comprising 374 carriages potentially requiring replacement by 2020, plus the additional carriages needed for service strengthening and any new services. Furthermore, if the Class 150s are all fitted with compliant toilets, they will suffer a significant loss of passenger capacity.

Can enough lines be electrified by 2020 to plug this gap, assuming sufficient EMUs are procured/cascaded?

 

[MCW]

Ok, I travelled on a 142 last week with my mate up sheffield way. now it was a refurbished one and it was bloody cramped! Interior wise it didn't seem Too bad and it seemed pretty clean... bloody noisy though. Also I wish it had the bus seats as I find bus seats are easier on my back.

 

[Haydn1971]

Currently on a 144 traveling up to Leeds - whilst superficially it doesn't look as tatty as my usual 153+150 to Leeds or indeed my usual 158 home, it's still just rubbish - the ride is rough, the carriage is being bounced around from side to side, the painted dados are starting to show signs of chips to the paintwork, the seats are OK, but by no means comfortable, the heater is on full blast noise, yet giving no heat out.

I've started occasionally using the 185/225 combo between Meadowhall and Leeds - the connection doesn't work that well, but when I'm not in a rush or late for my usual train home (which is generally standing room only between Leeds and Barnsley), it's a refreshing change to the still tatty 15x fleet.

The sooner the 14x and 15x sheds are retired to a museum the better ! I could just about accept some refurbished 158/9's with new seats, better legroom and aircon that actually works.

 

[northwichcat]

Furthermore, if the Class 150s are all fitted with compliant toilets, they will suffer a significant loss of passenger capacity.

If refurbished 150s are cascaded to replace Pacers and 153s then the capacity reduction shouldn't be too much of an issue.