Class 166 change over speed?

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Ghawk2005

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Hi

Could anyone tell me the change over speed (to direct drive I think they call it? For the Class 166 please?

I know the 158 is 57/58mph, but would like to know if it’s the same or whether it is around 63mph as currently modelled in Train Sim World 2

Many Thanks
Gary
 
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hexagon789

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Hi

Could anyone tell me the change over speed (to direct drive I think they call it? For the Class 166 please?

I know the 158 is 57/58mph, but would like to know if it’s the same or whether it is around 63mph as currently modelled in Train Sim World 2

Many Thanks
Gary
Varies dependant on individual unit and the controller power notch as with all BR 2nd Gen DMUs - it's not an exact fixed speed by any means.

The 166s do have a sightly different variant of Voith transmission to the 158s though, so the approximate changeover speed range could well be different.
 

hwl

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Hi

Could anyone tell me the change over speed (to direct drive I think they call it? For the Class 166 please?

I know the 158 is 57/58mph, but would like to know if it’s the same or whether it is around 63mph as currently modelled in Train Sim World 2

Many Thanks
Gary
56 / 57 mph in higher notches...
 

hwl

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So basically the same as a 158, what does the different transmission coding actually denote then if changeover is the same?
From memory: Slightly newer and for pairing with a different gearing ratio in the final drive.
 

hexagon789

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From memory: Slightly newer and for pairing with a different gearing ratio in the final drive.
Different wheel sizes or is there another reason for the different gearing ratio? Just trying to think why it would be different.
 

hwl

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Different wheel sizes or is there another reason for the different gearing ratio? Just trying to think why it would be different.
Wheels are effectively the same, both the 75and 90mph 165/166 have different final drive ratios to the 75 and 90mph sprinters. It may be down to the Perkins torque curve being a bit different to the Cummins one.
 

KT530

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Hi

Could anyone tell me the change over speed (to direct drive I think they call it? For the Class 166 please?

I know the 158 is 57/58mph, but would like to know if it’s the same or whether it is around 63mph as currently modelled in Train Sim World 2

Many Thanks
Gary
Depends on gradient and power notch, but generally between 46 and 56 mph.
 

craigybagel

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So basically the same as a 158, what does the different transmission coding actually denote then if changeover is the same?

From memory: Slightly newer and for pairing with a different gearing ratio in the final drive.

Wheels are effectively the same, both the 75and 90mph 165/166 have different final drive ratios to the 75 and 90mph sprinters. It may be down to the Perkins torque curve being a bit different to the Cummins one.

From talking to GWR drivers, seemingly the 165/166 has the same issue that the Perkins engined 158s also have; that whilst you might have 7 notches of power, 1-4 are almost entirely useless. When pulling away from a station you need to go almost immediately to notch 5 if you want to move anytime soon. I know Train Simulator doesn't recreate this, but I've not tried it in Train Sim World yet to set if it's simulated there either.
 

Ghawk2005

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From talking to GWR drivers, seemingly the 165/166 has the same issue that the Perkins engined 158s also have; that whilst you might have 7 notches of power, 1-4 are almost entirely useless. When pulling away from a station you need to go almost immediately to notch 5 if you want to move anytime soon. I know Train Simulator doesn't recreate this, but I've not tried it in Train Sim World yet to set if it's simulated there either.
Train sim classic physics for the 166 are awful. And TSW2 166 visually looks amazing, it accelerates rather briskly, to say the least.
I have reported it several times but they just say it’s too much hard work because it’ll affect the scenarios and timetabling too much.
 

hexagon789

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Wheels are effectively the same, both the 75and 90mph 165/166 have different final drive ratios to the 75 and 90mph sprinters. It may be down to the Perkins torque curve being a bit different to the Cummins one.
Thanks, these little things genuinely interest me.

From talking to GWR drivers, seemingly the 165/166 has the same issue that the Perkins engined 158s also have; that whilst you might have 7 notches of power, 1-4 are almost entirely useless. When pulling away from a station you need to go almost immediately to notch 5 if you want to move anytime soon. I know Train Simulator doesn't recreate this, but I've not tried it in Train Sim World yet to set if it's simulated there either.
Well at least the Perkins engines are consistent if nothing else!
 

KT530

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Power from the respective notches on Class 165/6 is as follows:

Notch 1 - 1%
Notch 2 - 14%
Notch 3 - 36%
Notch 4 - 50%
Notch 5 - 73%
Notch 6 - 87%
Notch 7 - 100%

...in theory at least.
 

craigybagel

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Power from the respective notches on Class 165/6 is as follows:

Notch 1 - 1%
Notch 2 - 14%
Notch 3 - 36%
Notch 4 - 50%
Notch 5 - 73%
Notch 6 - 87%
Notch 7 - 100%

...in theory at least.
Though with a Perkins engine it's more likely to be:

Notch 1 - 1%
Notch 2 - 5 %
Notch 3 - 10%
Notch 4 - 25%
Notch 5 - 80%
Notch 6 - 90%
Notch 7 - 100%

And that's only on a good day if all 7 notches are actually working! On Perkins 158 many's the time you'll find notches 6 and 7 don't actually give any extra power over notch 5.....
 

hexagon789

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Power from the respective notches on Class 165/6 is as follows:

Notch 1 - 1%
Notch 2 - 14%
Notch 3 - 36%
Notch 4 - 50%
Notch 5 - 73%
Notch 6 - 87%
Notch 7 - 100%

...in theory at least.
Does Notch 1 actually do anything with such a low power output?

I've seen similar figures for a Class 159 and Notch 1 was 7% power iirc.
 

172007

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Though with a Perkins engine it's more likely to be:

Notch 1 - 1%
Notch 2 - 5 %
Notch 3 - 10%
Notch 4 - 25%
Notch 5 - 80%
Notch 6 - 90%
Notch 7 - 100%

And that's only on a good day if all 7 notches are actually working! On Perkins 158 many's the time you'll find notches 6 and 7 don't actually give any extra power over notch 5.....

Wow.

Class 172 will start moving in notch 1. Notch 4 will overcome the hills start brake (step 1) easily; think notch 3 will tbh.
 

craigybagel

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Does Notch 1 actually do anything with such a low power output?

I've seen similar figures for a Class 159 and Notch 1 was 7% power iirc.

Wow.

Class 172 will start moving in notch 1. Notch 4 will overcome the hills start brake (step 1) easily; think notch 3 will tbh.
Again, I'm only speaking for Perkins 158s rather than Turbos, but they will move eventually in notch 1 so it probably is more than 1%. You can couple in notch 1. But for normal pulling away from a station stop you need at least notch 4, and often notch 5. My usual technique is to go straight to notch 4 with the brake in step 1, then when the engines rev up release the brake and simultaneously go to notch 5.
 

fgwrich

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Though with a Perkins engine it's more likely to be:

Notch 1 - 1%
Notch 2 - 5 %
Notch 3 - 10%
Notch 4 - 25%
Notch 5 - 80%
Notch 6 - 90%
Notch 7 - 100%

And that's only on a good day if all 7 notches are actually working! On Perkins 158 many's the time you'll find notches 6 and 7 don't actually give any extra power over notch 5.....

Don't forget it's even worse on a 166. The GW 165s are / were a little more sprightly as the Air Cooling is less of a power drain than the woeful Air Con in the 166.
 

hexagon789

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Again, I'm only speaking for Perkins 158s rather than Turbos, but they will move eventually in notch 1 so it probably is more than 1%. You can couple in notch 1. But for normal pulling away from a station stop you need at least notch 4, and often notch 5. My usual technique is to go straight to notch 4 with the brake in step 1, then when the engines rev up release the brake and simultaneously go to notch 5.
Ah right, fair enough. Must be pretty poor torque in lower notches if they need a bit more power to shift.
 

LowLevel

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The throttle control setup on a Perkins 158 is totally different to Cummins. They're designed to be able to handle being opened up in the high notches with the lower notches being used for fine power control at speed. Effectively a totally different handling technique but one which I don't think features in any training manuals and which drivers generally learn for themselves. A good Perkins unit flies, a bad one is utterly appalling though - we have all 3 types and the most consistently "ok" are probably the 350hp Cummins units, the worst being the 400hp version.

I have it on good authority that the initial BR training for all Sprinters in any case was to fill up the torque convertor and then open it up to notch 7.

I am but a humble guard but I've been working on 15x long enough to know what the driver is doing with his controls just from the relays clicking :lol:
 

hexagon789

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The throttle control setup on a Perkins 158 is totally different to Cummins. They're designed to be able to handle being opened up in the high notches with the lower notches being used for fine power control at speed. Effectively a totally different handling technique but one which I don't think features in any training manuals and which drivers generally learn for themselves. A good Perkins unit flies, a bad one is utterly appalling though - we have all 3 types and the most consistently "ok" are probably the 350hp Cummins units, the worst being the 400hp version.
That would make sense with the poor starting in lower notches, though interesting that the set up is so different. Any particular reason behind that?


I have it on good authority that the initial BR training for all Sprinters in any case was to fill up the torque convertor and then open it up to notch 7.
Yep, low notch (1 or 2), engine revs, floor it, release brakes and vroom... ;)
 
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