Class 221 for Grand Central

[tbtc]

. I thought that received wisdom was that the EMR would be going to GC, not that GC would be giving up all of their 180s? Oh well, yet again the speculation was wide of the mark

. Given the reliability problems of the 180s, if I were GC I’d be more focused about getting fit trains into service rather than worrying about what colour to paint the walls

. I guess we can expect threads about My Idea For Future Uses For The 180s

. Continuing to run pure diesels into KX into the 2030s seems really poor

. If this had happened five years ago, I’d have been angry, as someone who’d struggled with congested XC services I’d have been frustrated to see precious resources being allocated to Open Access instead of “core” services. But I’m so disillusioned with the government’s handling of the railway that I have very low expectations… since they clearly aren’t lifting a finger to help XC then it’s better that some spare Voyagers are put into use on GC to replace dodgy Adelantes, the government have had several opportunities to provide capacity for XC and haven’t taken those opportunities so I don’t feel that this decision now is any “loss” to XC, they’ll just have to

. But let’s hope that this news can be used to create some political noise about the problems that XC has!

 

[Bletchleyite]

. If this had happened five years ago, I’d have been angry, as someone who’d struggled with congested XC services I’d have been frustrated to see precious resources being allocated to Open Access instead of “core” services. But I’m so disillusioned with the government’s handling of the railway that I have very low expectations… since they clearly aren’t lifting a finger to help XC then it’s better that some spare Voyagers are put into use on GC to replace dodgy Adelantes, the government have had several opportunities to provide capacity for XC and haven’t taken those opportunities so I don’t feel that this decision now is any “loss” to XC, they’ll just have to

It's absolutely better that GC get them than that they get scrapped, because while we can question some of the aspects of the interior design and the space (in)efficiency they are good and reliable under the solebar unlike 180s.

On the other hand, DMUs under the wires all the way into London when the non-electrified sections are so short is something we really should be looking to ban long-term. Sure, it might make sense for GC to be taking the Voyagers for a period while bi-modes or even BEMUs can be ordered, built and brought into service (which would take 5+ years), see also ScotRail and the HSTs, but this really shouldn't be allowed to be a long term solution - there'll come a point in not too distant a future where all internal combustion engines will be banned from central London, rail or otherwise.

 

[Energy]

They don't work half the time anyway...always been a big Voyager issue.

The reliability of them has been ok for me. Horrible to find a spare seat though and I suspect many passengers don't notice them. The red and green LEDs on IETs are much better.

. I guess we can expect threads about My Idea For Future Uses For The 180s

They've been passed around a lot, surely there is no one else who is willing to take them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They've been passed around a lot, surely there is no one else who is willing to take them.

I suppose it's possible that whoever's taking the 175s (likely Chiltern, but it's been confirmed on another thread that they have now been agreed for a new home, just not what it is) might take them as well, as they're similar, but they do seem a lot less reliable so perhaps this will be their last hurrah.

The reliability of them has been ok for me. Horrible to find a spare seat though and I suspect many passengers don't notice them. The red and green LEDs on IETs are much better.

That tech that is about 15 years newer is better is no great surprise. I did think it a shame Avanti didn't replace them as part of the refurb, but maybe one should count one's blessings as not replacing them meant they weren't able to change the layout and cram more seats in

 

[geoffk]

Wha?

You mean XC has always been undercapacity i.e. in dire need of more trains? Doesn't mean this opportunity to fix it should be missed.

Plymouth - Edinburgh now hourly until around 14.30 then to Leeds until 17.30, also Bristol - Manchester back to hourly. How will XC manage without their HSTs when they go?

 

[dereksingh291]

Are Grand Central getting 10 Avanti Voyagers and CrossCountry getting the other 10 Avanti Voyagers? If so then when will they be transferred over to Grand Central and CrossCountry?

 

[hexagon789]

Are Grand Central getting 10 Avanti Voyagers and CrossCountry getting the other 10 Avanti Voyagers? If so then when will they be transferred over to Grand Central and CrossCountry?

GC are getting 10, there is nothing decided about XC.

Transfer will be dependent on driver training (stored units 221142 and 221143 are undergoing exams right now to enable them to be used for training), the balance of units will then be subject to AWC's 80x introduction I would presume.

 

[Gaz55]

Fingers crossed that the 10 remaining 221s do end being transferred to XC. Short of ordering a brand new fleet, the opportunity to expand their fleet is something that won't come around very often.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Plymouth - Edinburgh now hourly until around 14.30 then to Leeds until 17.30, also Bristol - Manchester back to hourly. How will XC manage without their HSTs when they go?

The May timetable changes on XC sees the amount of Voyagers diagrammed in service every day drop by 4, these 4 sets are the 2 x Double formations which will end up replacing the HSTs in the Autumn.

Effectively released by going back to pre Covid train lengths but not reinstating all the extra Reading/Southampton services.

 

[dan4291]

Does the fact that XC and GC have the same parent company (Arriva) have any influence to this decision? That plus XC and GC use 2 of the same maintenance depots (Crofton and Tyne Yard)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does the fact that XC and GC have the same parent company (Arriva) have any influence to this decision? That plus XC and GC use 2 of the same maintenance depots (Crofton and Tyne Yard)?

I don't think XC has anything to do with it, they have never been allocated to XC.

 

[James Kevill]

How was it confirmed that 10 Class 221 Super Voyagers going to Grand Central? I thought all of the 20 Super Voyagers will be transferred to CrossCountry where they will be formed in a uniform fleets like the other rail operators and rolling stocks. Does anyone have the source about the Super Voyagers going to Grand Central? I would highly doubt about it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How was it confirmed that 10 Class 221 Super Voyagers going to Grand Central? I thought all of the 20 Super Voyagers will be transferred to CrossCountry where they will be formed in a uniform fleets like the other rail operators and rolling stocks. Does anyone have the source about the Super Voyagers going to Grand Central? I would highly doubt about it.

Them going to XC may make sense, but it's never been officially said that they would.

 

[Energy]

Does the fact that XC and GC have the same parent company (Arriva) have any influence to this decision? That plus XC and GC use 2 of the same maintenance depots (Crofton and Tyne Yard)?

XC are sending across driver instructors.

 

[Wolvercoter]

Effectively released by going back to pre Covid train lengths but not reinstating all the extra Reading/Southampton services.

Nor the extra Exeter extensions of the Manchester - Bristol service.

 

[DanNCL]

The colour of the carriage end walls really isn't important. If for whatever reason GC are bothered by it I'm sure they can print out more vinyls of Marilyn Monroe like they did when they first launched with HSTs

Does the fact that XC and GC have the same parent company (Arriva) have any influence to this decision? That plus XC and GC use 2 of the same maintenance depots (Crofton and Tyne Yard)?

I don't think XC has anything to do with it, they have never been allocated to XC.

XC's relevance is that it'll be Arriva's experience with 221s as reliable units on XC that's made them consider 221s for GC. XC as a TOC won't have anything to do with it other than providing instructors to train GC crews on the 221s. Crofton is an Alstom depot, makes no difference to them whether 180s or 221s are used as they maintain both, and Tyne Yard is only used as a stabling point so again makes no difference.

 

[InTheEastMids]

It's quite possible the 221s were cheap if nobody else wanted them, too.

The expectation of Eversholt's 222s looking for new homes from perhaps late-2024 may also have spurred some movement in pricing.

I think 222s would also be cheaper to run than 221s as they are quite a bit lighter (saving both fuel and variable track access charges)

 

[whoosh]

I think 222s would also be cheaper to run than 221s as they are quite a bit lighter (saving both fuel and variable track access charges)

I've lost track over the years, are these 221s still fitted with tilt equipment? I know some had it removed with presumably a weight reduction.

Do 221s still stink inside? The exhaust used to run next to/alongside the effluent tank, making a smell of cooked sewage.
Has anything been done about that? Or is anything being done as part of the 'refresh'?

At least there's less emissions than 180s. They don't seem to catch fire!

 

[hexagon789]

I've lost track over the years, are these 221s still fitted with tilt equipment? I know some had it removed with presumably a weight reduction.

Do 221s still stink inside? The exhaust used to run next to/alongside the effluent tank, making a smell of cooked sewage.
Has anything been done about that? Or is anything being done as part of the 'refresh'?

At least there's less emissions than 180s. They don't seem to catch fire!

The tilt equipment is still fitted but isolated on XC 221's. The only physical modification is exchanging an hydraulic ram in the suspension for a solid one.

The lower track access charges come from not tilting, thus imparting lower track forces, rather than any weight loss.

AWC 221s are all still tilt enabled, though until recently stored 142 and 143 may have it isolated as part of their exams or it might be done at a later date.

 

[whoosh]

The tilt equipment is still fitted but isolated on XC 221's. The only physical modification is exchanging an hydraulic ram in the suspension for a solid one.

The lower track access charges come from not tilting, thus imparting lower track forces, rather than any weight loss.

AWC 221s are all still tilt enabled, though until recently stored 142 and 143 may have it isolated as part of their exams or it might be done at a later date.

I thought they'd had stuff removed, but it's just a ram replaced? So they are still very heavy then - it's just a maintenance saving on the upkeep of the tilt equipment?



With regard to leasing....

Could this be the situation/perceived situation?

XC (Arriva) say they are overcrowded and need more stock. Here's some 221s available.
"No we need to make cutbacks," say the DfT, "you can't have any at the moment."

"But someone else might take them if we don't take them now. It could cost more in the long run."

"There'll be 222s available in a couple of years," say the wise DfT.

"But they can't run in multiple with 220s and 221s. They aren't compatible."

Meanwhile over in the boardroom at GC (Arriva):
"These 180s keep catching fire and breaking down."
"Yes, we could wait a couple of years and have some 222s."
"Hold on.... we could do that. Or we could get these 221s cheap right now."
"Yes, but they are heavy with all that tilt equipment and will cost lots in fuel."
"We only need them for a year or two. Then we sublease them to XC as travel picks up, and make a profit. DfT could pay for XC to take 222s and have trains that can't couple... or they can have these 221s that do. But they'll have to pay us for them. We'll then take on the 222s because our trains dont need to be compatible with anything else."
"So the DfT would have to pay for XC to pay GC for them and our parent group Arriva would make a profit?"
"Yes! XC would get the trains it wants; we at GC get the trains we want; we, Arriva, make a profit out of it; and it costs the DfT more in the long run just like we said it would."
"Cheers!!"

 

[Energy]

"We only need them for a year or two. Then we sublease them to XC as travel picks up, and make a profit. DfT could pay for XC to take 222s and have trains that can't couple... or they can have these 221s that do. But they'll have to pay us for them. We'll then take on the 222s because our trains dont need to be compatible with anything else."

No XC would just lease the 222s and diagram them to keep the fleets seperate.

With regard to leasing....

Could this be the situation/perceived situation?

XC (Arriva) say they are overcrowded and need more stock. Here's some 221s available.
"No we need to make cutbacks," say the DfT, "you can't have any at the moment."

"But someone else might take them if we don't take them now. It could cost more in the long run."

"There'll be 222s available in a couple of years," say the wise DfT.

The DfT have a set amount of money to spend from the treasury. Funding the 221s while everyone else was expected to cut back due to inflation would have been difficult.

 

[endofthetunnel]

Many of the 180 issues are endemic design issues with the fleet, so adding more 180s (or swapping them) only pushes the problem further away for now, not solving it.

The GC depots do have Voyager familiarity already which absolutely helps, and whatever the new units are won’t be in GC colours, so it was only ever forum speculation that they would take the EMR 180s.
The only difference is that driver and crew training needs to happen, but GC have spare drivers (especially with all the 180 cancellations!) so are capable of getting this done whilst running a full service and hopefully a smooth transition.

 

[anthony263]

Not necessarily. As fuel and electricity prices fluctuate (wildly, recently) so one type of traction becomes more or less expensive than the other. DRS, Freightliner and DB Cargo have all reduced electric traction usage in recent times as electricity prices have gone up.

A half-life train with no other projected use is likely to be cheaper to lease than a brand new one.

Hitachi are supposed to have jacked up prices for new class 802s etc this is why grand union are still negotiating awith them I've heard price

 

[irish_rail]

Nor the extra Exeter extensions of the Manchester - Bristol service.

Which is a kick in the teeth, as Bristol isn't a great railhead for the southwest, seeing as GWR only provides stoppers onward. Exeter or even Taunton would have allowed connections in the Plymouth and Cornwall from Manchester. As it stands we have to stick with the appalling none existent connections at New Street.

 

[dk1]

Which is a kick in the teeth, as Bristol isn't a great railhead for the southwest, seeing as GWR only provides stoppers onward. Exeter or even Taunton would have allowed connections in the Plymouth and Cornwall from Manchester. As it stands we have to stick with the appalling none existent connections at New Street.

Shame, as the extended platform 2 at St.David’s would’ve been an almost perfect turn back. Oh well!!

 

[Snow1964]

It's quite possible the 221s were cheap if nobody else wanted them, too.

Quite likely, the market price is ultimately what someone will pay. The alternative is ultimately being stored, no lease revenue, and possibly never used again.

One of the problems for the Lease Cos is if they have not been fully depreciated, putting them in store with no known future user means providing a diminution of value in their accounts (their P&L account is hit with a write down to scrap value).

GC are getting 10, there is nothing decided about XC.

Transfer will be dependent on driver training (stored units 221142 and 221143 are undergoing exams right now to enable them to be used for training), the balance of units will then be subject to AWC's 80x introduction I would presume.

Don't forget Grand Union have recently acquired open access rights for 10 years from December 2024 for a Carmarthen-London service too. The plan there was existing spare Diesel trains initially, then new bi-modes.

Link it to possibility that Grand Central are just thinking an interim fleet to replace the unreliable 180s, or to allow them to move routes with a Grand Union tie up. But maybe longer term 222s will be used instead of bi-modes.

Nothing seems to be definite yet, so can't rule out some fancy cascade that hasn't yet been revealed. I'm sure founder of GC and GU is same person, but don't know how they interact

 

[Wyrleybart]

A half-life train with no other projected use is likely to be cheaper to lease than a brand new one.

Particularly as the AWC 221s have only relatively recently had their Avanti interiors (and exteriors) refreshed

 

[Desirolly]

Wow it’s going to be weird seeing 221s on the ECML south! Have they ever been on the Southern part of the ECML before?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wow it’s going to be weird seeing 221s on the ECML south! Have they ever been on the Southern part of the ECML before?

I doubt it, but Hull did use 222s at one point.

 

[hexagon789]

Wow it’s going to be weird seeing 221s on the ECML south! Have they ever been on the Southern part of the ECML before?

No, but if Virgin's Operation Omega had been implemented, 220s would have run into King's Cross regularly.