Class 221 for Grand Central

[Trainbike46]

Don’t think XC voyagers can work with AWC ones as they don’t have the same TMS system now, so in essence no different to 222’s for XC

Software can be updated, for example to the XC version, whereas getting the 222s to work with the other 22x may be harder

 

[Bletchleyite]

Software can be updated, for example to the XC version, whereas getting the 222s to work with the other 22x may be harder

Or they can just diagram them not to need to couple. Plenty of TOCs have multiple incompatible fleets. XC at present have three (22x, 170, HST). Post bringing in 222s and getting rid of HSTs, XC would still have three (220/221, 170, 222).

 

[Trainbike46]

Or they can just diagram them not to need to couple. Plenty of TOCs have multiple incompatible fleets. XC at present have three (22x, 170, HST). Post bringing in 222s and getting rid of HSTs, XC would still have three (220/221, 170, 222).

oh absolutely

But the amount of people who seem to think the avanti and xc 221s having different software is some massive problem is surprising

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Don’t think XC voyagers can work with AWC ones as they don’t have the same TMS system now, so in essence no different to 222’s for XC

Other than a neat consistent product, but that is just cosmetic and I suppose wouldn’t influence anything.

 

[DanNCL]

A fleet of six-car trains rules out the possibility of using 8/9/10 coach Voyagers where demand justifies it.

It would also rule out the use of platform 11 at Newcastle for half of the Voyager fleet again, an issue that's only just been addressed in the last few weeks.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There is a thread to discuss future fleets for CrossCountry somewhere in Speculative Discussion, just to casually add. It might not be a good idea doing so in this thread.

 

[Evolution]

It looks like a good move by GC, the voyagers certainly seem more reliable than the 180s (that isn’t saying much though).

Not sure if it’s been mentioned but the AWC units will need all the tilt equipment removing before GC use them, as XC did. AIUI it’s not just a case or isolating the system, the equipment from the bogies has to be removed.

Anyone know for certain if the 221s could work in multiple with a 222? They both have the same Dellner type 12 coupler which means they could, at least mechanical couple. Not sure if they are electrically compatible though.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It looks like a good move by GC, the voyagers certainly seem more reliable than the 180s (that isn’t saying much though).

Not sure if it’s been mentioned but the AWC units will need all the tilt equipment removing before GC use them, as XC did. AIUI it’s not just a case or isolating the system, the equipment from the bogies has to be removed.

Anyone know for certain if the 221s could work in multiple with a 222? They both have the same Dellner type 12 coupler which means they could, at least mechanical couple. Not sure if they are electrically compatible though.

They’d require substantial modifications as they’re not compatible, but as Grand Central don’t have any 222s it’s not really of any matter anyway.

 

[Energy]

the equipment from the bogies has to be removed.

Its changing the hydraulic rams to a solid steel bar. I believe its been mentioned that they are currently at Central Rivers having work done?

 

[cactustwirly]

Other than a neat consistent product, but that is just cosmetic and I suppose wouldn’t influence anything.

I doubt most people would notice (222s having smaller windows and more seats per carriage), the 222s and Voyagers are in dire need of refurbishment. So the opportunity could be taken to make them more consistent.

 

[hexagon789]

Not sure if it’s been mentioned but the AWC units will need all the tilt equipment removing before GC use them, as XC did. AIUI it’s not just a case or isolating the system, the equipment from the bogies has to be removed.

XC did not have the tilt equipment removed. The modifications are simply isolation of the tilt equipment and exchanging hydraulic rams in the suspension for solid steel ones.

 

[Evolution]

They’d require substantial modifications as they’re not compatible, but as Grand Central don’t have any 222s it’s not really of any matter anyway.

Do you know that for certain or are you just speculating?

Why would they require ‘substantial modifications’ when they run the same, engines, traction package, TCU, ECU.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2023 ==

Its changing the hydraulic rams to a solid steel bar. I believe its been mentioned that they are currently at Central Rivers having work done?

Thanks, makes sense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt most people would notice (222s having smaller windows and more seats per carriage), the 222s and Voyagers are in dire need of refurbishment. So the opportunity could be taken to make them more consistent.

Never noticed 222s having smaller windows, but it does appear they are about 2-3" smaller at the bottom (you can tell by looking at the bottom of the door window against the bottom of the main windows). Wonder why?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I doubt most people would notice (222s having smaller windows and more seats per carriage), the 222s and Voyagers are in dire need of refurbishment. So the opportunity could be taken to make them more consistent.

Never noticed 222s having smaller windows, but it does appear they are about 2-3" smaller at the bottom (you can tell by looking at the bottom of the door window against the bottom of the main windows). Wonder why?

If you report this thread

Will XC take on the 221s from Avanti & the 222s from EMR?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/xc-service-reductions-from-28-11-inc-withdrawal-of-all-hst-services.225291 Will XC take on the 221s from AWC & the 222s from EMR but what will happen to the XC 170s?

www.railforums.co.uk

It may be reopened for people to discuss 222s going to XC there.
EDIT: There is a new one here:

What's going to happen to the Class 222's after the Class 810's replace them?

If needed, Please move Will XC take them over? I know that GC are taking the Avanti 221's so not to GC. Or will scotrail take them for the inter7city trains or will it be scrap?

www.railforums.co.uk

Here is the current thread discussing the possibility of Avanti's 221s going to XC, to keep speculation out of the thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...lass-221-to-crosscountry.213400/#post-4972641

Do you know that for certain or are you just speculating?

Why would they require ‘substantial modifications’ when they run the same, engines, traction package, TCU, ECU.

Erm, do you think I would reply with such certainty if I were "just speculating?" It's a well-known fact that Voyagers and Meridians cannot couple and work in service due to electrical incompatibility.

 

[Evolution]

XC did not have the tilt equipment removed. The modifications are simply isolation of the tilt equipment and exchanging hydraulic rams in the suspension for solid steel ones.

I’d argue removing an hydraulic ram and replacing it with a solid steel one is, in fact, removing the tilt equipment

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2023 ==

If you report this thread

Will XC take on the 221s from Avanti & the 222s from EMR?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/xc-service-reductions-from-28-11-inc-withdrawal-of-all-hst-services.225291 Will XC take on the 221s from AWC & the 222s from EMR but what will happen to the XC 170s?

www.railforums.co.uk

It may be reopened for people to discuss 222s going to XC there.

Here is the current thread discussing the possibility of Avanti's 221s going to XC, to keep speculation out of the thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...lass-221-to-crosscountry.213400/#post-4972641


Erm, do you think I would reply with such certainty if I were "just speculating?" It's a well-known fact that Voyagers and Meridians cannot couple and work in service due to electrical incompatibility.

If it’s a “well known fact” please explain it in detail instead of just saying they are electrically incompatible, or are you just rehashing something you’ve heard?

Do you know the different voltages? If so what are they? Please enlighten me. I sign units with the same engine and would love to know.

 

[cactustwirly]

If you report this thread

Will XC take on the 221s from Avanti & the 222s from EMR?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/xc-service-reductions-from-28-11-inc-withdrawal-of-all-hst-services.225291 Will XC take on the 221s from AWC & the 222s from EMR but what will happen to the XC 170s?

www.railforums.co.uk

It may be reopened for people to discuss 222s going to XC there.
EDIT: There is a new one here:

What's going to happen to the Class 222's after the Class 810's replace them?

If needed, Please move Will XC take them over? I know that GC are taking the Avanti 221's so not to GC. Or will scotrail take them for the inter7city trains or will it be scrap?

www.railforums.co.uk

Here is the current thread discussing the possibility of Avanti's 221s going to XC, to keep speculation out of the thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...lass-221-to-crosscountry.213400/#post-4972641


Erm, do you think I would reply with such certainty if I were "just speculating?" It's a well-known fact that Voyagers and Meridians cannot couple and work in service due to electrical incompatibility.

It's just software mainly, the 221s were designed to work with 390s so have Alstom TMS and motors.
222s have Bombardier equipment

 

[Evolution]

It's just software mainly, the 221s were designed to work with 390s so have Alstom TMS and motors.
222s have Bombardier equipment

Thanks.

 

[Energy]

I’d argue removing an hydraulic ram and replacing it with a solid steel one is, in fact, removing the tilt equipment

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2023 ==

Removing part of, all the TASS receiving equipment and the remaining hydraulics are still there.

It's just software mainly, the 221s were designed to work with 390s so have Alstom TMS and motors.
222s have Bombardier equipment

222s are still Alstom drive, different TMS I believe.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's just software mainly, the 221s were designed to work with 390s so have Alstom TMS and motors.
222s have Bombardier equipment

The builders/suppliers are all Alstom now, should any work be needed on the trains.
That ought to make life easier for future 22x users (if anyone will pay).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm still not seeing the relevance of whether 221s can couple to 222s anyway, seeing as there's been no indication of Meridians joining the transferring Voyagers at Grand Central? Hence they won't ever need to.

 

[WillPS]

oh absolutely

But the amount of people who seem to think the avanti and xc 221s having different software is some massive problem is surprising

I recall in the days of Meridian introduction there was a lot of hoo-har about how units weren't as flexible, and unlike an HST couldn't be easily remarshalled to change formations and lengths.

Then East Midlands Trains changed them all, first dropping the 9s to 8s and boosting their 4 car fleets to 5, then again from 8 to 7 creating a consistent class (at least until they got the Pioneers). Many of these formation changes happened overnight with a service being run the day before and the day after.

Just because things seem like they might not be possible, doesn't mean they are not.

 

[dk1]

IIRC, we’ve got Bombardier to thank for that too. As well as the jigs being long gone, Bombardier wanted to use their own traction equipment, while the DfTs conditions was that it used equipment from Alstom in Preston (which makes sense given that the Voyagers use the Alstom Onix equipment anyway). Bombardier played hard ball and the idea fizzled out. A shame really!

Yes it really was as lots of opportunities to use overheads on both SW-NE & South Coast-Manchester on XC as well as most of AWC routes.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that the thread is about the transfer of Class 221s to Grand Central. If anyone wants to discuss anything else 221/222/EMR/GC related then please find a more appropriate thread or start a new one.

thanks

 

[43096]

It's just software mainly, the 221s were designed to work with 390s so have Alstom TMS and motors.

Nothing to do with it and in any case there was no intention for multiple working between them.

Bombardier bid the 22x contract before the had taken ownership of ADtranz so didn't have an in-house traction package. They went for the Alstom kit. Given Bombardier were maintaining the 22x in a completely separate depot from the 390s, the traction kit being from the same manufacturer is irrelevant.

222s have Bombardier equipment

222s have Alstom Onix traction systems.

 

[Class 170101]

Wow it’s going to be weird seeing 221s on the ECML south! Have they ever been on the Southern part of the ECML before?

No, but if Virgin's Operation Omega had been implemented, 220s would have run into King's Cross regularly.

Presumably route clearance will be needed as these units haven't been south of Doncaster (although similar Class 222s have).

 

[hexagon789]

Presumably route clearance will be needed as these units haven't been south of Doncaster (although similar Class 222s have).

I think so, 220/221 don't appear to be cleared to King's Cross according to the Sectional Appendix.

 

[Desirolly]

I think so, 220/221 don't appear to be cleared to King's Cross according to the Sectional Appendix.

How do they become added? Is it a case of a lot of measurements comparing the train to platform lengths/heights etc and then a test run?

 

[D365]

How do they become added? Is it a case of a lot of measurements comparing the train to platform lengths/heights etc and then a test run?

In this day, a lot of digital measurements and computer calculations.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm amused by the fact it's sort of the reverse of what Hull Trains did ten fifteen years ago, noting that the Voyagers and Meridians are from the same family.

Wasn't the original move after DfT pressure though?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The "West Riding" route will presumably also need clearing (unless bits such as Askern have previously been cleared as a diversionary route for XC). There also used to be a daily ECS move across the Pennines via Huddersfield in Virgin XC days which would cover the short section through Mirfield, though I think that was always a HST.