Class 221 for Grand Central

[Energy]

Wasn't the original move after DfT pressure though?

Here from @Clarence Yard in another thread.

What happened was more complicated.

Hull had the choice of staying where they were with the 222 fleet (which was highly profitable) and going for a straight TA renewal or going for a longer TAA with 5 cars.

So they started asking around the market about 5 or more cars, new and secondhand and working up various business plan scenarios.

Then the DfT and Sir Moir got talking about releasing the 222 fleet to East Midlands. This was all tied up with something else going on with FG and the DfT at the time and FG were not in a strong position. So the 180 fleet came in as the “perfect” solution for everybody, except HT weren’t too keen because of their reliability. But they had no choice in the matter.

HT then had to get a deal together to get the requisite years on a TAA contract to match the investment needed to go 5 car cl.180 & to get the things up to some degree of reliability. 15k m.p.c. was the figure agreed - the ORR wanted much more than that (25k m.p.c. was mentioned!) but it was pointed out to them that these things were the DMU equivalent of class 50 locos - when they were good, they were very good but when they were bad, they were very bad!

All was relatively ok while the maintenance for the units was done at OOC. There have been the odd occasions when material supply has been an issue, most unfortunately as the units were being transferred to Crofton but it has been Crofton maintenance that has really been the recent issue. It just isn’t working as it should and, without going into detail here, it is an issue which is getting senior director level attention at both FG and Bombardier.

 

[Wolfie]

Here from @Clarence Yard in another thread.

TY

 

[LUYMun]

Are there any plans for Avanti's Voyagers to go elsewhere? Perhaps exchanging these to XC for the 221s destined for GC would make a reasonable deal...

 

[The Middle]

Are there any plans for Avanti's Voyagers to go elsewhere? Perhaps exchanging these to XC for the 221s destined for GC would make a reasonable deal...

It is the Avanti 221s that are going to GC

 

[hexagon789]

Are there any plans for Avanti's Voyagers to go elsewhere? Perhaps exchanging these to XC for the 221s destined for GC would make a reasonable deal...

It is Avanti 221s that are going to Grand Central, not XC ones.

XC are not giving up any 221s.

 

[LUYMun]

Thanks, I must've misunderstood which one's going where!

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks, I must've misunderstood which one's going where!

Just to clarify:

Avanti have eighteen 221s for traffic, plus there are two stored.

These two stored units, plus a further eight currently used by AWC will be going to Grand Central to replace their 180s after a quick refresh and rebranding.

The remaining balance of ten Avanti 221s then left presently have no future use designated.

 

[Whistler40145]

Will the tilt system be isolated on the 221s heading to Grand Central?

 

[hexagon789]

Will the tilt system be isolated on the 221s heading to Grand Central?

Yes and the hydraulic rams in the suspension replaced with solid ones.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Just to clarify:

Avanti have eighteen 221s for traffic, plus there are two stored.

These two stored units, plus a further eight currently used by AWC will be going to Grand Central to replace their 180s after a quick refresh and rebranding.

The remaining balance of ten Avanti 221s then left presently have no future use designated.

Do we know which remaining eight will also cross over?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Do we know which remaining eight will also cross over?

I haven't seen any numbers in this thread, I'd expect it to be whatever the first 8 are that Avanti hand back.
I don't know if there's any way we can predict that.

 

[dereksingh291]

When are the Avanti 221s going over to Grand Central and CrossCountry but also when are Avantis 805s & 807s entering service?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

When are the Avanti 221s going over to Grand Central

also when are Avantis 805s & 807s entering service?

Those are basically the same question.

and CrossCountry

No solid ideas of them going to XC yet.

 

[TreacleMiller]

GC have confirmed only x2 221s on a short term lease on a comment on LinkedIn, in which they also acknowledge issues with the 180s.

How many in total have they supposedly agreed to take?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I haven't seen any numbers in this thread, I'd expect it to be whatever the first 8 are that Avanti hand back.
I don't know if there's any way we can predict that.

The allocation will be decided in advance, they won’t just withdraw for Grand Central to say “Ooh yes, we’ll take that one!”

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2023 ==

Those are basically the same question.

They’re not. 142 and 143 are off lease and in the works for Grand Central already. It’s the remaining eight that will depend on the Hitachi fleet.

 

[hexagon789]

How many in total have they supposedly agreed to take?

Ten units, as per thread title.

 

[Energy]

GC have confirmed only x2 221s on a short term lease on a comment on LinkedIn, in which they also acknowledge issues with the 180s.

How many in total have they supposedly agreed to take?

Here's the post

[...] Unfortunately, several factors have led to reliability issues with the current fleet of 180s, and have left us suffering from unit availability problems. And yes, we’re looking to strengthen our fleet with two additional 221 trains on a short-term lease. [...]

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Ten units, as per thread title.

Did you ever provide us with the quote from the leasing company in the end?

 

[XAM2175]

Here's the post

That sentence doesn't appear in the linked post, "GRAND CENTRAL TOPS TABLE AGAIN FOR PASSENGER GROWTH". Do you mean it's in one of the comments on that post?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That sentence doesn't appear in the linked post, "GRAND CENTRAL TOPS TABLE AGAIN FOR PASSENGER GROWTH". Do you mean it's in one of the comments on that post?

Yes I was going to say I'm also struggling to find it!

 

[WAB]

Yes I was going to say I'm also struggling to find it!

Hi Simon, thank you for your comment, which is accurate and fair, regarding the challenges we’ve faced recently. Unfortunately, several factors have led to reliability issues with the current fleet of 180s, and have left us suffering from unit availability problems. And yes, we’re looking to strengthen our fleet with two additional 221 trains on a short-term lease. This will support our ability to provide the level of service our customers expect and deserve, and ensure they continue to choose to travel with us. Thanks again for taking the time to comment and hope you have a lovely weekend ☀️

I must say, 2 rather than 10 is what I had heard.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Ten units, as per thread title.

Third party title threads equate to public statements? It could be they've not finalised the other 8 yet. They are certainly wanting rid from the conversation I've had with their drivers.

 

[Energy]

That sentence doesn't appear in the linked post, "GRAND CENTRAL TOPS TABLE AGAIN FOR PASSENGER GROWTH". Do you mean it's in one of the comments on that post?

It is.

 

[Wolfie]

I must say, 2 rather than 10 is what I had heard.

Cynically it offers them an opportunity to try out the 221s. One advantage for them is that at least some of the maintenance is similar eg 221s use the same engines as 180s.

 

[Energy]

Cynically it offers them an opportunity to try out the 221s. One advantage for them is that at least dime of the maintenance is similar eg 221s use the same engines as 180s.

Supplementing the 180s sounds about right. GC only have a couple years left on the track access agreement, they'd want a longer before fully committing.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So this about ten going over - for which we never actually saw a source - is proving to be nonsense after all?

 

[Wolfie]

So this about ten going over - for which we never actually saw a source - is proving to be nonsense after all?

Unless the 221s and 180s belong to the same ROSCO where is the incentive for the owner of the latter to agree early termination of the lease? They must realise that those assets have nowhere else to go.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Unless the 221s and 180s belong to the same ROSCO where is the incentive for the owner of the latter to agree early termination of the lease? They must realise that those assets have nowhere else to go.

Class 221 are Beacon's and Class 180 are Angel's

 

[DarloRich]

sigh. I detest voyagers so wont be using GC but why, WHY, WHY aren't all the Voyagers going to XC to make a common fleet and provide extra capacity on a very busy route?

Take off lease GWR/XC HST for two years and OK an order for new bi mode trains for GC. That or put a 47 on again.........

(FFS: Kenny, get me xantac)

 

[pokemonsuper9]

but why, WHY, WHY aren't all the Voyagers going to XC to make a common fleet and provide extra capacity on a very busy route?

I feel like we all know the answer to that, the treasury probably won't give the money for it.