Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[Bletchleyite]

What news is that?

They have gone into administration.

 

[Liam L]

What news is that?

They have entered administration.

 

[Zontar]

Do we know what the ownership structure of the Welsh units is? That is, does Vivarail own them or TfW/a leaseco?

I asked the same question...I'm told TFW own them. So I guess they just need to persuade someone to take on the maintenance....

 

[507020]

Just speaking to a colleague and the pushback to late January for 230 operation is apparently true.

On Twitter yesterday they told me introduction wasn’t planned until early 2023

 

[Liverpool 507]

I asked the same question...I'm told TFW own them. So I guess they just need to persuade someone to take on the maintenance....

It will be interesting to see if Stadler will be in talks about this.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I got an email from LNW at 16:41 saying that the Marston Vale line is suspended due to the Vivarail administration

 

[the sniper]

It will be interesting to see if Stadler will be in talks about this.

I've seen comments about Stadler, but I can't think of anything in their business model that lends me to think they'd be at all interested in taking on some small, long term maintenance contract for a few odd bodge job units reassembled out of 40 years old trains, that they'd never have built themselves. That is unless it is was a short term arrangement before a standard Stadler product was introduced, in this case Merseyrail/777 BEMUs getting to Wrexham.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just looked at the "Vivarail News" part of their website. Nothing at all mentioned about the administration.

 

[ExRes]

Just looked at the "Vivarail News" part of their website. Nothing at all mentioned about the administration.

Maybe there are no staff left to update the website?

 

[D365]

Just looked at the "Vivarail News" part of their website. Nothing at all mentioned about the administration.

There are several updates on LinkedIn posted by the 'top brass'.

 

[Zontar]

There are several updates on LinkedIn posted by the 'top brass'.

Yes referring to "mickey taking from industry player"

 

[craigybagel]

Interesting that the rather dubious post many of us questioned has now been deleted without further comment....

I've seen comments about Stadler, but I can't think of anything in their business model that lends me to think they'd be at all interested in taking on some small, long term maintenance contract for a few odd bodge job units reassembled out of 40 years old trains, that they'd never have built themselves. That is unless it is was a short term arrangement before a standard Stadler product was introduced, in this case Merseyrail/777 BEMUs getting to Wrexham.

As far as I know, Stadlers involvement comes from the fact they're responsible for Birkenhead North depot.

 

[D365]

Yes referring to "mickey taking from industry player"

Being the first to introduce third rail fast charging and diesel-battery hybrids was always going to be a tough act, even more so for a start-up.

 

[Razorblades]

As far as I know, Stadlers involvement comes from the fact they're responsible for Birkenhead North depot.

Indeed. In a similar way to other manufacturers taking over depot responsibility along with the allocated/ local fleet(s) - Alstom at the likes of Longsight is a good case in point. Latterly, Siemens' responsibility for the Class 319s allocated to Northampton. These maintenance contracts come at a price, of course.

 

[JetStream]

so it Looks more likely the 197s will be used on the Borderlines instead of the class 230 units. Not that likely will be 23rd January.

My understanding is that the 197s will not be used on the Borderline at all due to gearing issues.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

My understanding is that the 197s will not be used on the Borderline at all due to gearing issues.

Well considering the 2 service diagrams are booked for them from December, I find that minorly concerning.

 

[JetStream]

Well considering the 2 service diagrams are booked for them from December, I find that minorly concerning.

Likewise. There's apparently further issues with the 230s and timings, which could potentially kick them back beyond January, but I've heard the 197s are simply not capable of running such a stop-start route.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Likewise. There's apparently further issues with the 230s and timings, which could potentially kick them back beyond January, but I've heard the 197s are simply not capable of running such a stop-start route.

I've not heard anything about the 197s having a problem with it, although we'll just have to wait and see what happens!

 

[Caaardiff]

I've not heard anything about the 197s having a problem with it, although we'll just have to wait and see what happens!

It seems they have struggled to keep time.
Rumour is crew training has been postponed, not sure in the truth in this though.

This is not going well.

Would it not make more sense to stretch out the use of 150's on the line, get it electrified or third rail and hand it over to Merseyrail?

 

[L401CJF]

Yes 197s are not to be used on Bidstons due to timing issues. 230s pushed back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems they have struggled to keep time.

That is bizarre. They have the same driveline as the 195s, and Northern now use these on east Manchester and CLC stopping services, because their performance and capacity is ideally suited to these services - they, like the 172s - are designed for this sort of thing. They also, when not broken, seem to handle the Conwy Valley with ease - almost boringly so, with no loud engine noise or squealing.

Are the staff handling them with kid gloves compared with Northern's drivers who seem to just whack them into performance mode and use the full capability of the power and braking they offer? (Braking in particular - they seem mostly to be driven almost European-style - I was quite surprised by the speed at which they seem to approach the buffers at Windermere).

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Yes 197s are not to be used on Bidstons due to timing issues. 230s pushed back.

Oh dear that is not good news at all. I hope they can get these 230s in ASAP.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Oh dear that is not good news at all. I hope they can get these 230s in ASAP.

What is the exact position regarding the use of the 230s in this current Vivarail administration scenario?

 

[craigybagel]

That is bizarre. They have the same driveline as the 195s, and Northern now use these on east Manchester and CLC stopping services, because their performance and capacity is ideally suited to these services - they, like the 172s - are designed for this sort of thing. They also, when not broken, seem to handle the Conwy Valley with ease - almost boringly so, with no loud engine noise or squealing.

Are the staff handling them with kid gloves compared with Northern's drivers who seem to just whack them into performance mode and use the full capability of the power and braking they offer? (Braking in particular - they seem mostly to be driven almost European-style - I was quite surprised by the speed at which they seem to approach the buffers at Windermere).

Even in ECO mode they outperform anything in the existing TfW fleet, so I too am struggling to understand how this is happening.

 

[D365]

What is the exact position regarding the use of the 230s in this current Vivarail administration scenario?

Nothing announced yet.

 

[sefyllian]

What is the exact position regarding the use of the 230s in this current Vivarail administration scenario?

Not sure if this is new news, but “testing and training is now ‘on hold’ after the announcement from Vivarail” according to this BBC Wales article.

Extra rail services in north Wales on hold after firm goes bust

[...]

TfW, which is wholly owned by the Labour Welsh government, says it plans to bring the new Class 230 trains into service in 2023.

It added that it still has a "strong ambition" to deliver on its plans and will "work with all partners to expand the capacity of the line in the future".

It looks to introduce the twice-hourly service, it said, but testing and training is now "on hold" after the announcement from Vivarail.

"We'll be in a position to provide an updated statement in the coming days, but our focus remains to bring our Class 230 units into service on our network."

On behalf of administrators Grant Thornton, joint administrator, Jon Roden said while the company has been supporting Vivarail with sourcing investment opportunities, it has yet to find any solution in the limited time available.

"Whilst it has not been appropriate to continue to trade the Vivarail business in administration, we have presently retained a core team of around 30 employees and would urge any parties interested in the business and/or its assets to contact us urgently.

"Outside of these final discussions, our primary focus is to now work alongside Vivarail's customers and other key stakeholders with a view to enhancing the return to creditors under difficult circumstances."

 

[EngFocus]

Interesting that the rather dubious post many of us questioned has now been deleted without further comment....

As far as I know, Stadlers involvement comes from the fact they're responsible for Birkenhead North depot.

It's complicated, the agreement for the stabling at Birkenhead North is between TfW and Stadler. But Stadler and Vivarail had been in communication about developing the rapid charging system.

Likewise. There's apparently further issues with the 230s and timings, which could potentially kick them back beyond January, but I've heard the 197s are simply not capable of running such a stop-start route.

When I spoke to Vivarail staff at last year's Rail Live they said a simulated run was done with a stop at Hawarden Bridge and the location for Deeside Parkway and the 230s was 4 minutes quicker than a 150. All the observations and times myself and others have done suggest 230s are much quicker than 150s, even climbing away from Shotton towards Hawarden.

 

[Greybeard33]

It seems they have struggled to keep time.
Rumour is crew training has been postponed, not sure in the truth in this though.

This is not going well.

Would it not make more sense to stretch out the use of 150's on the line, get it electrified or third rail and hand it over to Merseyrail?

Are the 150s not needed in S Wales from the timetable change? Might there now be a risk of temporary bustitution on the Borderlands, as has already happened on the Marston Vale?

 

[TheSel]

Oh dear that is not good news at all. I hope they can get these 230s in ASAP.

They WILL get the 230s in ASAP.

In A Siding, And Purged.

Arrange the words 'Elephant' and 'White' to make a well known phrase.

Are the 150s not needed in S Wales from the timetable change? Might there now be a risk of temporary bustitution on the Borderlands, as has already happened on the Marston Vale?

Risk? Yes.

Likelihood, No.

It takes almost twice as long to serve the route end to end by replacement bus.

Quite simply, in the medium term, the alignment from Bidston to Shotton needs to be ripped up and converted to guided busway without further provarication. Every 15 (or even every 10) becomes a 'piece of p*ss - please forgive my forthright terminology.

Let the Welsh Govt pay for services South of Shotton, with an hourly DMU (good luck with that, more likely every 75 mins) ... with a single DMU.

One unit for the South, one for the North. What could constitute more 'levelling up' than that?

 

[Pacef8]

I dont think you could get two buses passing through burton point cut. Good idea though.