Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[tomuk]

Have you set foot on either? Aside from the colour red I'm struggling...

Not only was the D78's original interior refurb more comprehensive than the (highly regarded IIRC) 455s for SWT, but TfW's have also gained air-con, toilets, LED lighting, new seating with tables and walkthrough gangways. IMO they look modern and feel new and that seems to be the feedback from ordinary passengers too.

Vivarail have been criticised for many things but I can't recall 'worn out' interiors ever being one of them.

But even the de luxe TfW 230s still look like D78 stock interiors.

 

[Chris125]

But even the de luxe TfW 230s still look like D78 stock interiors.

Sure, to an enthusiast who knows it still resembles the post 2000s refurb interior but - IMO at least - that design doesn't even look dated after a refresh, let alone 'worn out' and ordinary passengers seem none the wiser.

 

[tomuk]

Sure, to an enthusiast who knows it still resembles the post 2000s refurb interior but - IMO at least - that design doesn't even look dated after a refresh, let alone 'worn out' and ordinary passengers seem none the wiser.

Not enthusiats but 100,000s who travelled on the district line. The most anachronistic element are the grab poles\vestibule partitions as they were original in 78 and probably designed using LT standard parts going back to the 60s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Not enthusiats but 100,000s who travelled on the district line. The most anachronistic element are the grab poles\vestibule partitions as they were original in 78 and probably designed using LT standard parts going back to the 60s.

I wonder how many of the 100,000s who travelled on the District line will be using the Borderlands Line. Even if someone does will they recognise the fixings ?. Will they care about all that or will they care about how clean and quiet they are ?.

 

[Woods]

I offer for your delectation some photos showing the interiors of the TfW Class 230s (red grab poles) and that of 230001 when it visited COP26 (blue/purple seats). Very 'anachronistic', very 'dated', I'm sure....especially the PRM bog....honestly you can't please some people

 

[tomuk]

I offer for your delectation some photos showing the interiors of the TfW Class 230s (red grab poles) and that of 230001 when it visited COP26 (blue/purple seats). Very 'anachronistic', very 'dated', I'm sure....especially the PRM bog....honestly you can't please some people

It is clearly a D78 you can't hide that. I said the most anachronistic part are draft partitions around the vestibules which are still original at least behind the cabs om the TfW versions.

 

[Woods]

It is clearly a D78 you can't hide that. I said the most anachronistic part are draft partitions around the vestibules which are still original at least behind the cabs om the TfW versions.

Yes sorry I guess Vivarail should have put more effort into making it look more like a Mk3 carriage or a Pendolino.

 

[Krokodil]

Not enthusiats but 100,000s who travelled on the district line. The most anachronistic element are the grab poles\vestibule partitions as they were original in 78 and probably designed using LT standard parts going back to the 60s.

How many of the passengers getting on at Buckley have travelled on the District Line more than a couple of times in their lives?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I offer for your delectation some photos showing the interiors of the TfW Class 230s (red grab poles) and that of 230001 when it visited COP26 (blue/purple seats). Very 'anachronistic', very 'dated', I'm sure....especially the PRM bog....honestly you can't please some people

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Really really NICE tbh. Wish the tube trains in London were like that.

Where you have failed is that they are long metal tubes with wheels attached to bogies under each end .

It is clearly a D78 you can't hide that. I said the most anachronistic part are draft partitions around the vestibules which are still original at least behind the cabs om the TfW versions.

Well I travelled on the D78s quite a few times and they look a LOT less like any tube train than I remember. I would not worry about a few details like draft partitions - would hate to see (feel) them removed.

 

[Woods]

Really really NICE tbh. Wish the tube trains in London were like that.

Where you have failed is that they are long metal tubes with wheels attached to bogies under each end .

Well I travelled on the D78s quite a few times and they look a LOT less like any tube train than I remember. I would not worry about a few details like draft partitions - would hate to see (feel) them removed.

Hehe yes very bad form keeping the aluminium bodyshells and bogies at either end. Far too anachronistic, should have gone for a Monorail conversion, perhaps Jacobs bogies or even converted into a Hyperloop pod!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Hehe yes very bad form keeping the aluminium bodyshells and bogies at either end. Far too anachronistic, should have gone for a Monorail conversion, perhaps Jacobs bogies or even converted into a Hyperloop pod!

A simpler solution to making things different would be a P*c*r .

Actually - if 230001 is anything like the Borderlands 230s then LRT will be in deep trouble when passengers at Greenford compare it to the Central Line trains they are sat in .

 

[Chris125]

It is clearly a D78 you can't hide that. I said the most anachronistic part are draft partitions around the vestibules which are still original at least behind the cabs om the TfW versions.

Only an enthusiast would know that - what's relevant is whether they, and the interior as a whole, look dated and/or 'worn out' to ordinary passengers and I've seen nothing to suggest they do.

 

[L401CJF]

Having worked them in service for 8 hours now (with more to follow today!) I can confirm the locals really like them. Lots of comments from the locals on how much nicer they are than the old stock. Even though its common knowledge via local news that they're ex tube stock, the locals seem to think they're brand new. I've not heard anything negative said about them by the punters.

The original side facing tube seats are very popular believe it or not. The mix of tube seats and "proper" seats, combined with lots of door vestibules means plenty of space for prams and bikes without blocking aisles unlike on the 150s.

 

[F262YTJ]

Rail replacement buses are being pulled from Monday, TfW are expected all diagrams to be operated by 230s.

 

[tomuk]

Only an enthusiast would know that - what's relevant is whether they, and the interior as a whole, look dated and/or 'worn out' to ordinary passengers and I've seen nothing to suggest they do.

Would know what? I checked specifically about the draft screens TfW 230s but anyone who was a regular on the district line would recognise them as D78s, even more so with the other 230s\484s which retain more transverse seats and the inter car doors.

 

[childwallblues]

Fantastic photographs posted. I shall look forward to travelling on the line in a couple of weeks time.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Rail replacement buses are being pulled from Monday, TfW are expected all diagrams to be operated by 230s.

From what the train crew say it’s unlikely to be a 230 every hour because there are only 3 of them available and they still need one or two for training. It is possible they might have a 150 free because of Valleys engineering might save one or use a 197 on one of the diagrams

 

[Krokodil]

the locals seem to think they're brand new

I remember when the 150s got their PRM mods (so still Arriva colours inside and out, the only difference was a new toilet and some LED displays). Some passengers thought that they were new units.

 

[Dan G]

Having worked them in service for 8 hours now (with more to follow today!) I can confirm the locals really like them. Lots of comments from the locals on how much nicer they are than the old stock. Even though its common knowledge via local news that they're ex tube stock, the locals seem to think they're brand new. I've not heard anything negative said about them by the punters.

The original side facing tube seats are very popular believe it or not. The mix of tube seats and "proper" seats, combined with lots of door vestibules means plenty of space for prams and bikes without blocking aisles unlike on the 150s.

Thank you for your posts! It's really interesting to hear real information, especially in a thread with rather a lot from the "I hate everything" brigade.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Would know what? I checked specifically about the draft screens TfW 230s but anyone who was a regular on the district line would recognise them as D78s, even more so with the other 230s\484s which retain more transverse seats and the inter car doors.

I could argue that it really does not matter if the 230s look like old tube stock to an even greater degree than they actually do. The important thing is they look very nice indeed now. It is hard to believe they were once sub-surface underground trains and that appearance now will be what influences the vast majority of the passengers regardless of their intimate knowledge of the D78s past appearance.

Thank you for your posts! It's really interesting to hear real information, especially in a thread with rather a lot from the "I hate everything" brigade.

Very true. And those were wonderful pictures. I think performance is the only outstanding metric - and the Borderlands 230s seem to be improving in the hands of drivers that are gaining experience on the 230s. They are though on a very tight schedule.

I cannot understand why anyone has not complained about the seats recently . I have not travelled on a 230 yet but surely they must have seats !.

 

[Chris125]

Would know what? I checked specifically about the draft screens TfW 230s but anyone who was a regular on the district line would recognise them as D78s, even more so with the other 230s\484s which retain more transverse seats and the inter car doors.

The last D78 was withdrawn 6 years ago - perhaps a District Line regular might find the 484s seating layout familiar, but IMHO a non-enthusiast recognising the 230 interior as ex-D78 just doesn't seem credible without some prior knowledge.

I say that as someone who was always amazed at how oblivious passengers could be about the 483s being ex tube stock!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Only an enthusiast would know that - what's relevant is whether they, and the interior as a whole, look dated and/or 'worn out' to ordinary passengers and I've seen nothing to suggest they do.

Have you interviewed what you describe as “ordinary passengers” to support this assertion? They look quite old inside when you think about it. I think its the tinny metalic feel.

 

[Techniquest]

Personally, I couldn't care less if they're ex-D stock or not. Such a fact intrigues me, but I'm more looking forward to seeing what the 230s are like. I'm sure the sight of one will trigger memories of D stock trains on London trips, but that's not a bad thing.

What I do like the sound of is the news about the replacement buses ending soon. That much is great news, things are improving and soon I will have to organise a day trip to the Borderlands. Quite a lot up that way I want to do in terms of walking and cycling, so I could easily make it a fun day out.

I've not yet set foot on a 230 or 484, but I am absolutely looking forward to doing so as the year progresses. Bring them on!

 

[Chris125]

Have you interviewed what you describe as “ordinary passengers” to support this assertion? They look quite old inside when you think about it. I think its the tinny metalic feel.

Vivarail units have been working my local line for 18 months now so not only do I know what "ordinary passengers" among my friends and family think, but I've also overheard plenty of passengers and even a few staff too - and so far I've seen nothing to suggest reactions to the TfW fleet have been any different.

...which begs the question, what research has a resident of Sydney done to confidently assert they look "quite old inside", "worn out already" and like SWR 455s "which says it all really"?

 

[L401CJF]

Today's 230 update, first round trip ran to time, +1 minute here and there - until Penyffordd on the way back where it was held at a red as an early running freight (6V75) was ahead of it.

The second trip lost a few more minutes as it was the drivers first in service run.

Having a quick look at it up to now on RTT it's managed to claw back a fair bit, running about 3 down currently.

Also interestingly for this line and worth remembering, the public timetable is different to the working timetable. The public one is shown as a minute earlier in most locations than the train crew diagrams.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Vivarail units have been working my local line for 18 months now so not only do I know what "ordinary passengers" among my friends and family think, but I've also overheard plenty of passengers and even a few staff too - and so far I've seen nothing to suggest reactions to the TfW fleet have been any different.

...which begs the question, what research has a resident of Sydney done to confidently assert they look "quite old inside", "worn out already" and like SWR 455s "which says it all really"?

18 months… but in service for 1. You don’t mean to say the “ordinary passengers” snuck aboard the test rides, surely?

To answer your question, I have been on all 137 455s, which I consider to be more than enough experience on them to know what they’re like inside, and I have also been on all of LNR and a number of SWR’s D-Train offerings to know that they have similarities inside to SWR’s 455s. A red colour scheme alludes to this all the more.

Tastes will very, I suppose. I won’t argue with you if you think they feel like new trains. I’m sure TfW would be delighted you think that way, and most likely intend for the public to believe they are indeed brand new. Unfortunately I don’t think they do personally.

 

[Dan G]

Also interestingly for this line and worth remembering, the public timetable is different to the working timetable. The public one is shown as a minute earlier in most locations than the train crew diagrams.

Why's that?

 

[D365]

... I have been on all 137 455s, which I consider to be more than enough experience on them to know what they’re like inside, and I have also been on all of LNR and a number of SWR’s D-Train offerings to know that they have similarities inside to SWR’s 455s.

Some seem to be under the impression that I have given Vivarail more credit than they were due... but if you're really saying that the D-Train interiors are more akin to a Class 455 than anything else, I'd say that's impressive indeed!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Some seem to be under the impression that I have given Vivarail more credit than they were due... but if you're really saying that the D-Train interiors are more akin to a Class 455 than anything else, I'd say that's impressive indeed!

It’s the walls, lighting and PIS for me.

 

[tomuk]

Some seem to be under the impression that I have given Vivarail more credit than they were due... but if you're really saying that the D-Train interiors are more akin to a Class 455 than anything else, I'd say that's impressive indeed!

I'm not so sure about the 455s myself although they did vary from operator to operator. I would argue that a wider difference due to refurbishment was the Merseyrail 507/508s where you would be hard to find similarities with the original or other PEPs. The 230 family and D78s not so much.