• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 315 Withdrawals

Status
Not open for further replies.

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,473
I suspect a part of the cynicism is because a lot of specialist skill to maintain a multiple unit in working order. Compared to locomotives and coaching stock, it’s not something that any old volunteer can pick up in a few days.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

CEPG

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2022
Messages
29
Location
Lavender Line, Isfield
I suspect a part of the cynicism is because a lot of specialist skill to maintain a multiple unit in working order. Compared to locomotives and coaching stock, it’s not something that any old volunteer can pick up in a few days.
That's a valid point, but from reading their website alone, their new Chairman is a mainline fleet engineer and has had years of experience working on said units. There also seem to be several Ex. drivers involved, and thats just the management. no doubt there will be a few members too with previous experience. So it seems they have the right people involved.
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,372
Why do ex drivers suddenly know how to restore a unit?
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,317
Respectfully, But how is this different from preserving some Ex. mainline Mk3's and taking them to a preserved line? (which has happened up and down the country). I've barely seen any fuss made about sending multiple mk3's to the likes of MNR, CVR, NHR, GCR, SVR ect. ect. Where's the undercover storage for all of these vehicles?

This is essentially what these are to a heritage line, a set of ex. mainline coaches to be hauled by various locomotives but with the added operational flexibility that it can be easily piloted and has the potential for modification for rear-cab operation. not something you can do with Mk3s unless you also have a DVT.
It is very different. LHCS Mark 3s have standard air brakes, drophead buckeyes (ie can be coupled to standard locos) and BR standard ETH. A 315 has none of that: there’s some serious work needed on couplers, brakes and train supply before you can even think about using it. You’d hope they have a plan, but on form so far I’m doubtful.
I Feel like your personal bias towards this group and your views on how they have done things in the past may be affecting your opinions here because your arguments are flawed.
How they have done things in the past is a very good basis for an opinion!
I for one, as a fellow EMU preservationist, wish every success to the group in their future endeavours and look forward to seeing if they can achieve their goals.
Good luck to anyone attempting preservation - they’ll need it, and plenty more besides.
 

Southern Dvr

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
876
One of the locos taking so many EMUs to their demise would presumably be a great asset to a heritage line with a 315. Translator vehicles are not required.

My main concern with any vehicle going into preservation is that if it isn’t powered up and moved around regularly they fall into disrepair very quickly.
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,372
They probably don't but like many of us involved in preservation you learn on the job and ask questions of people who know.
In that case being a driver or being joe public makes no difference and the theory that having ex drivers on the committee means all will be plain sailing is unfounded.

I've worked with 315s in an operational capacity and can tell you they aren't like your normal coaching stock. Even if a heritage line got a 37 to couple to it, all it gives is brake compatibility and nothing more. All the doors have to be manually locked out of use for the drags for example.
 

Richard Scott

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2018
Messages
3,696
In that case being a driver or being joe public makes no difference and the theory that having ex drivers on the committee means all will be plain sailing is unfounded.

I've worked with 315s in an operational capacity and can tell you they aren't like your normal coaching stock. Even if a heritage line got a 37 to couple to it, all it gives is brake compatibility and nothing more. All the doors have to be manually locked out of use for the drags for example.
That's why I said you ask people who know.
 

gmaguire

Member
Joined
29 Dec 2021
Messages
175
Location
London
I think a conclusion has been jumped to here about former drivers in the group and the future upkeep of the unit. Nobody was necessarily implying drivers are somehow experts on the units, but who is to say what these people might know. The group will do what they can with what they can get, and if it goes peer-shaped then so be it. So far I think they've done well. If they had listened to some of you on here they would have given up ages ago and achieved nothing.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,473
I think a conclusion has been jumped to here about former drivers in the group and the future upkeep of the unit. Nobody was necessarily implying drivers are somehow experts on the units, but who is to say what these people might know. The group will do what they can with what they can get, and if it goes peer-shaped then so be it. So far I think they've done well. If they had listened to some of you on here they would have given up ages ago and achieved nothing.
That’s a bit of an exaggeration… but there are various reasons why few electric multiple units are preserved in full working order. A middle ground would be the East Kent Railway, e.g. the Class 365 carriages.

Fair play for trying and at least it appears that the Class 315 group have managed to arrange the transport as a very first step.
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,372
If they had listened to some of you on here they would have given up ages ago and achieved nothing
The group has a huge issue with anyone who disagrees with them on anything.

I personally tried to sit down with them to discuss some ways that the unit could be useful but I was seen as a doubter and pessimist because I said the first step should be to make it compatible with locos rather than paint it blue and replace the PIS with destination blinds.

They do have achievements, they secured a unit (twice) and sorted somewhere to put it (once), but the hard work is yet to begin and it doesn't inspire confidence when the management committee are asking trucking companies on public posts if they can transport it for them, and seem to be giving priority to their wishes to restore it to as built condition such as restoring air operated doors, instead of focusing on a solution to the already well documented compatibility issues.
 

Mothball

Member
Joined
26 Nov 2018
Messages
142
I would say the comment about drivers is rather unfair, 99% of groups have volunteers with no rail experience, when I started with my pres line I certainly didn't. People's issues aren't the types of people involved, more the lack of straight, honest answers and business plan. Blocking anyone who has a been open about there reservations rather than trying to reassure them is one massive red flag.

Most of us are guilty of saying the words "I wish xxx had been saved" and fair play to them they have gone to more effort than many about it.

Ultimately I can see the need to take on an entire unit being the groups downfall. As mentioned "modern" coaching stock on pres lines is completely different to "modern" units, to use the 315 as hauled stock is going to require major modifications.
Is it really worth it?

Depending on the which post you read the transport bill for 4 coaches is either 5 or 6 figures, then they have insurance costs and monthly rent.

Let's say it's the bottom end of 6 figures, £100,000, for the transport, from the sounds of it they don't have it, or if they do only just. Move all 4 carriages and there's nothing left for the other expenses. Save one or two carriages and there is roughly £75/50,000 left for the extra costs/upkeep, a serious amount of money.
I'd rather see a single carriage preserved in good, static condition, than a full dilapidated unit.
 

adc82140

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2008
Messages
2,936
Bound for the Llanelli railway.

All scrapped/at scrapyard except 856, which is at Lydney. None on the GEML.
I thought there were still two at Ilford after the scrap move to Newport was cancelled last week.
 

Islineclear3_1

Established Member
Joined
24 Apr 2014
Messages
5,838
Location
PTSO or platform depending on the weather
I would say the comment about drivers is rather unfair, 99% of groups have volunteers with no rail experience, when I started with my pres line I certainly didn't. People's issues aren't the types of people involved, more the lack of straight, honest answers and business plan. Blocking anyone who has a been open about there reservations rather than trying to reassure them is one massive red flag.

Most of us are guilty of saying the words "I wish xxx had been saved" and fair play to them they have gone to more effort than many about it.

Ultimately I can see the need to take on an entire unit being the groups downfall. As mentioned "modern" coaching stock on pres lines is completely different to "modern" units, to use the 315 as hauled stock is going to require major modifications.
Is it really worth it?

Depending on the which post you read the transport bill for 4 coaches is either 5 or 6 figures, then they have insurance costs and monthly rent.

Let's say it's the bottom end of 6 figures, £100,000, for the transport, from the sounds of it they don't have it, or if they do only just. Move all 4 carriages and there's nothing left for the other expenses. Save one or two carriages and there is roughly £75/50,000 left for the extra costs/upkeep, a serious amount of money.
I'd rather see a single carriage preserved in good, static condition, than a full dilapidated unit.
I'm assuming the Society have secured a (large) home for their unit and have at least enough funds to pay rent and insurance for at least a few months/a year. I'm also assuming the Society have a robust business plan as to their scope and aims along with plans in place for securing further funding for upkeep. I'm also assuming the Society have the necessary knowledge and expertise in coachwork, mechanical and traction - and time. I am also assuming the Society have enough paying members (e.g. shares, or whatever) that can be actively involved in its restoration.

All the very best of luck if that is the case

Assume too that the company is registered as a company with Companies House? I believe there was a group that was dissolved but is now The Class 315 Preservation Group Ltd?
 

Class15

On Moderation
Joined
30 Dec 2021
Messages
1,437
Location
The North London Line
I thought there were still two at Ilford after the scrap move to Newport was cancelled last week.
You may well be right.

I'm assuming the Society have secured a (large) home for their unit and have at least enough funds to pay rent and insurance for at least a few months/a year. I'm also assuming the Society have a robust business plan as to their scope and aims along with plans in place for securing further funding for upkeep. I'm also assuming the Society have the necessary knowledge and expertise in coachwork, mechanical and traction - and time. I am also assuming the Society have enough paying members (e.g. shares, or whatever) that can be actively involved in its restoration.

All the very best of luck if that is the case

Assume too that the company is registered as a company with Companies House? I believe there was a group that was dissolved but is now The Class 315 Preservation Group Ltd?
All a bit suspicious.
 

CEPG

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2022
Messages
29
Location
Lavender Line, Isfield
In that case being a driver or being joe public makes no difference and the theory that having ex drivers on the committee means all will be plain sailing is unfounded.

I've worked with 315s in an operational capacity and can tell you they aren't like your normal coaching stock. Even if a heritage line got a 37 to couple to it, all it gives is brake compatibility and nothing more. All the doors have to be manually locked out of use for the drags for example.
Yes, I saw, it was another member who implied that theory initially

Apologies for any confusion

I think you may have cherry-picked my initial response about the people involved. I'd like to again highlight the chairman of the committee is a fleet engineer and has had years of experience with said units. I also highlighted the drivers because while they may not be technically trained in the mechanical side they still need to know a fair bit about traction-specific fault finding and operation, they aren't joe public pulled off the street with this being their first time on a 315. Again I think this is just people being sceptical because this is something relatively new. Anyone can learn and when you have an ex. fleet engineer leading the team id say that's a pretty good mentor.
The company being dissolved worries me, but looks like it’s okay
I highly doubt Eversholt would have donated this unit if they thought this was an issue. They are still clearly going strong.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,473
I think you may have cherry-picked my initial response about the people involved. I'd like to again highlight the chairman of the committee is a fleet engineer and has had years of experience with said units. I also highlighted the drivers because while they may not be technically trained in the mechanical side they still need to know a fair bit about traction-specific fault finding and operation, they aren't joe public pulled off the street with this being their first time on a 315.
Fault finding is not fault fixing. Two very different things.

Anyone can learn...
That's right, but an electric unit is an expensive learning curve...
 

CEPG

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2022
Messages
29
Location
Lavender Line, Isfield
It is very different. LHCS Mark 3s have standard air brakes, drophead buckeyes (ie can be coupled to standard locos) and BR standard ETH. A 315 has none of that: there’s some serious work needed on couplers, brakes and train supply before you can even think about using it. You’d hope they have a plan, but on form so far I’m doubtful.

How they have done things in the past is a very good basis for an opinion!

Good luck to anyone attempting preservation - they’ll need it, and plenty more besides.
My comparison to the numerous Mk3s was more made to highlight the corrosion argument. They are no better protected but I've seen multiple people saying the unit will rust the second it gets taken from the mainline which is exaggerated somewhat.

I can't comment on a lot of the group's past because I haven't been aware of them for dreadfully long, but I'm a firm believer that the past doesn't solely inform the future and I'm sure lessons can be learned, as with everyone's there's always room to change, grow and evolve.

I too wish them well, everyone in preservation faces a strong uphill climb.

Fault finding is not fault fixing. Two very different things.


That's right, but an electric unit is an expensive learning curve...
Easier to learn how to fix a fault when you also are trained in finding it!

And let's face it, anything is expensive to learn and do nowadays. If these lads want to volunteer their time to learn, all power to them.
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,372
And forgive my naivety but how does one find/fix faults on an electric unit with no AC power?
It depends on the nature of the fault. I'd say that their highest risk area is going to be whatever interface they have to work with a loco. That will be non-standard and as a result only a very limited number of people will have a very limited knowledge of it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top