Class 345 progress

[dp21]

I am quite impressed by what I've seen from Greater Anglia with regard to sensible spec of the units under the stipulations of the franchise (3+2 seating isn't something I necessarily agree with but it's necessary to achieve their obligations). I think the tip-up seats will prove useful, but cause more problems than they're worth and can see them being taken out at some point, but otherwise the 720s are shaping up nicely. For their other faults, the 345s are very quiet and smooth even sat above a powered bogie and that's in metro guise with no carpets. As long as the seating on the 720s is at most 387-hard rather than 345-hard, they should be really quite comfortable and pleasant units to travel in. Even things like the horrendous bang of the VCB Electrostars were infamous for if you sat under the pantograph has been dealt with on the Aventra. From a noise insulation, traction package noise (both the motors/gearing itself and the IGBT drive noise) and electrical noise (transformer and inverter noise) standpoint, the Aventra is a huge improvement on the Electrostar. It's a shame it's ruined a little bit by somewhat noisy air conditioning and, on the 345s at least, but I suspect all Aventras, headache-inducing door sounders.

The wheel-rail interface noise has also been cut noticeably, I've been snuck up on by a few 345s when looking the other way.

 

[samuelmorris]

I can't say I really noticed much in the way of blower noise on Electrostars unless somehow it's directly proportional to vehicle speed and cuts off the same time the traction motors do. The noise I'm referring to sounds like regular motor noise to me.
As for the A/C noise, definitely not the case. Electrostars (particularly 387s which seem quieter than earlier iterations at idle) when just running low heat in winter months (I'd expect A/C working flat out in midsummer to be noisy) are very quiet when stationary. 345s are not, even with the doors closed.

Here is a good example of what I'm on about:

Around 20mph ish, there is a distinct resonance effect which is quite noisy. This seems largely confined to Electrostars and older units.
Happens around 1m21-1m24 in this video, but it's more noticeable from outside.
Around 40mph, some kind of frequency switch occurs in the drive controller which introduces additional noise for a short while afterwards until becoming unnoticeable around 50. This is common to both Electrostars and AT300s (Both the 395s and 800s)
In this video it occurs at 2m00.

345s don't really seem to make any of this noise. That said, at the very beginning of that video, the cabin is very quiet.
On a 345, it seems to vary greatly depending on which vehicle you're in. My preference is coach 3 of 7 in the direction of travel as it is far enough forward to stand a good chance of getting a transverse seat, but not in the transformer carriage, which is still a bit noisy, even if less so than the 387.
Good example of that noise from Leo Martin's video around the 5m30 mark.

A/C noise wise, try this one

Around 2m40, it pulls into Stratford. It's December (or so the video says), so it'll be cold outside without need for the A/C to work hard, yet it's pretty noisy in there when the train comes to a stand.
There is also an additional noise they seem to produce randomly which is on and off with no pattern I can work out. Struggling to find a video demonstrating that, best I can do is this one at 5m15:

Is that the traction blowers you're referring to? Unlike the rest of the traction noise it's clearly audible from inside.

After all that criticism though, another positive I forgot to mention is that the plug door seals are much better than the old ones. Passing high-speed services are barely noticeable, other than a quite satisfying muffled thud. Even original Electrostars were much less severe for this than old BR EMUs like 321s, but they've done an excellent job of isolating that noise on the Aventra, finally on par with what Siemens achieved with the Desiro UK.

 

[Kite159]

I had a short wait around Stratford this afternoon, and out of the 6 TfL Rail services I saw, 3 were formed of 345s which was a nice bonus

[Although when did all 4 trains an hour for TfL Rail run to Shenfield, I swear it used to be only 2 which went all the way with Southend services taking up the stops after Gidea Park]

 

[samuelmorris]

That's true, that must be a recent change. With the quantity of engineering work weekends I've avoided the line outside of weekdays on principle, so that escaped my notice.

 

[class387]

I had a short wait around Stratford this afternoon, and out of the 6 TfL Rail services I saw, 3 were formed of 345s which was a nice bonus

[Although when did all 4 trains an hour for TfL Rail run to Shenfield, I swear it used to be only 2 which went all the way with Southend services taking up the stops after Gidea Park]

Perhaps stranger is that yesterday I caught a pair of 315s on a semi-fast service from Romford calling only at Chadwell Heath, Ilford, Stratford and Liverpool Street.

 

[306024]

I had a short wait around Stratford this afternoon, and out of the 6 TfL Rail services I saw, 3 were formed of 345s which was a nice bonus

[Although when did all 4 trains an hour for TfL Rail run to Shenfield, I swear it used to be only 2 which went all the way with Southend services taking up the stops after Gidea Park]

Special timetable on Sundays at the moment due to the electric lines being blocked at Gidea Park as part of the yard remodelling. Running on the main lines you can't turnround at Gidea Park. Likewise on Saturdays, with some Chadwell Heath terminators and some trains running semi fast to Shenfield, some of those are 315s and some 345s.

 

[700007]

345005 this morning had faulty PIS and had no idea where on Earth it was. Auto announcement wasn't working at all and all the screens were showing different stations to the one that the train was actually at.

 

[samuelmorris]

Don't know if related but the PIS on the 315s I travelled in on this morning was still stuck at 'This is Stratford' all the way into Liverpool Street.

 

[2000]

There was a 345 on test at Hayes & Harlington around midnight, 345019 I believe at a glance.

Correct, this was the first trip for a 345 from Hayes down to Heathrow.

Is there any realistic possibility that (sufficient) 9-car Class 345s will be fully tested and commsissioned including the trackside and train borne ETCS in time to start the 4tph Paddington-Heathrow service in just four moths time ? There seems rather little progress evident so far. Also is Old Oak Common depot open yet ?

The depot is not open yet. There is a 345 stabled there, however the one used for testing at Heathow has been hauled down from Wembley.

Testing on the Great Western side is definitely in full swing. I haven’t heard anything to suggest any slippage in the dates.

This is very much not the case from what I understand.

 

[mrmartin]

Another faulty train today. Seems virtually every day at the moment which isn't great considering they were meant to be introduced nearly 8 months ago and only a small.proportion of the fleet is rolled out yet - nowhere near as many as the 800s

 

[AS43]

Another faulty train today. Seems virtually every day at the moment which isn't great considering they were meant to be introduced nearly 8 months ago and only a small.proportion of the fleet is rolled out yet - nowhere near as many as the 800s

4L02 is the failure at Brentwood, assuming that's what you're referring to?

 

[Domh245]

nowhere near as many as the 800s

The 800s have been running around testing in the UK since mid 2015, the 345s only since mid 2016, and the 800s introduction into service hasn't exactly been fault free.

 

[47802]

Another faulty train today. Seems virtually every day at the moment which isn't great considering they were meant to be introduced nearly 8 months ago and only a small.proportion of the fleet is rolled out yet - nowhere near as many as the 800s

But then the 800's had over a year in testing while the 345 seemed have relatively short time in test before the 1st one went into service.

 

[D365]

Maybe it’s just time to accept that we are not going to see an reasonable entry to service of a passenger fleet with 100% reliability?

 

[matthewmacleod]

What sort of faults are they experiencing generally? Door issues?

I've noticed that the doors have some weird behaviour on occasion – I've seen them fail to open when passengers want to alight, and it seems to occur if someone has been leaning against the button while the train is in motion.

(Related – it's a minor issue, but the placement of the door buttons is irritating. The 315s' are readily accessible in comparison.)

 

[samuelmorris]

4L02 is the failure at Brentwood, assuming that's what you're referring to?

What does a failed freight have to do with 345s? It isn't even on that line...

 

[Domh245]

What does a failed freight have to do with 345s? It isn't even on that line...

The fact that it has failed and is causing the delays, and not a 345 as implied by TfL's service update and post#1690?

 

[samuelmorris]

The fact that it has failed and is causing the delays, and not a 345 as implied by TfL's service update and post#1690?

Yes, sorry, even though I replied to your post, it was directed at mrmartin - didn't realise that wasn't clear.

 

[gwr4090]

Well, the 345019 testing to Heathrow didn't last long. It was hauled straight back north (to Old Dalby ?) yesterday (Monday)

 

[dp21]

Maybe it’s just time to accept that we are not going to see an reasonable entry to service of a passenger fleet with 100% reliability?

I wish more people would grasp this. This happens almost 100% of the time and with the "new generation" of trains being so complex and software-based it's going to be an even bigger battle than usual as the industry adapts and gains appropriate knowledge - remember the engineering organisations within these companies are struggling with ageing workforces and changing to working with such complex things is no mean feat.

What sort of faults are they experiencing generally? Door issues?

I've noticed that the doors have some weird behaviour on occasion – I've seen them fail to open when passengers want to alight, and it seems to occur if someone has been leaning against the button while the train is in motion.

(Related – it's a minor issue, but the placement of the door buttons is irritating. The 315s' are readily accessible in comparison.)

They're on version 14 or something with the door software so definitely something they're still trying to perfect.

 

[Lockwood]

I had a chance to use a 345 yesterday, Stratford to Liverpool Street.

I tried a sideways and forwards facing seat. I found no discomfort from either.

One thing that struck me as unusual was having to press the open button at Liverpool Street. Down this neck of the woods, pressing the open button is common, I had expected the vehicle designed to shovel as many people in to London as possible as quickly as possible would have had the doors automatically open at the terminus. I felt like a tourist by standing there and not pressing the big green circle, the opposite to the tube tourist.

 

[samuelmorris]

I think the doors will open automatically at Liverpool Street low-level Crossrail station, just not at the high-level mainline terminus as the platforms won't be fitted with the relevant equipment.

 

[Lockwood]

That makes sense, though I was thinking the member of staff that did door stuff would have hit an "Open all doors" button there. No new equipment needed

 

[iphone76]

That makes sense, though I was thinking the member of staff that did door stuff would have hit an "Open all doors" button there. No new equipment needed

There is a door open button which can be used, however, no instructions have yet been issued on when to use it. When first delivered, Stratford was programmed as an underground station, so the doors did all open when the door release was given.

 

[DidcotDickie]

Even things like the horrendous bang of the VCB Electrostars were infamous for if you sat under the pantograph has been dealt with on the Aventra.

Sorry samuelmorris, that gave me a good chuckle. You're presumably not old enough to have travelled in the first generation AC units like the 302s? They had air blast breakers (ABBs not VCBs) mounted above the guard's van and made a helluva bang when they opened on the neutrals. You could hear it clearly if you were sitting at the panto end of the motor coach. Regulars didn't bat an eyelid but you could tell someone who wasn't a regular from their startled look as the units banged their way through the neutrals at West Ham and Upney on the LT&S.

I travelled on a 357 from Southend Central to Fenchurch St a few weeks ago and was sitting under the pantograph. The thuds as we passed through the neutrals was noticeable but hardly horrendous. Maybe I'm getting deaf in my old age

Back on topic - I'm glad to see that Bombardier have addressed aural sensitivities with the 345s. Look forward to travelling on one!

 

[hwl]

I can't say I really noticed much in the way of blower noise on Electrostars unless somehow it's directly proportional to vehicle speed and cuts off the same time the traction motors do. The noise I'm referring to sounds like regular motor noise to me.

Electrostars don't have (external) blowers they have shaft mounted motor cooling fans so the noise is related to motor speed ^2. Aventras have external blowers motor on the underframe and a ducting network to supply the cooling air to the motors. This allows the traction motors to be far shorter as it doesn't have a fan on 1 end which starts to become important if you want to fit comparatively large motors on inside frame bogies. It also allows cooling while stationary so you can push the motors harder. The other motor noises magnetrorestriction and gear noises are now more audible as they aren't masked by the fan noise.

As for the A/C noise, definitely not the case. Electrostars (particularly 387s which seem quieter than earlier iterations at idle) when just running low heat in winter months (I'd expect A/C working flat out in midsummer to be noisy) are very quiet when stationary. 345s are not, even with the doors closed.

Different manufacturer of Aicon equipment was Lieberr for electrostars now Mitsubishi for Aventra.

Here is a good example of what I'm on about:

Around 20mph ish, there is a distinct resonance effect which is quite noisy. This seems largely confined to Electrostars and older units.
Happens around 1m21-1m24 in this video, but it's more noticeable from outside.
Around 40mph, some kind of frequency switch occurs in the drive controller which introduces additional noise for a short while afterwards until becoming unnoticeable around 50. This is common to both Electrostars and AT300s (Both the 395s and 800s)
In this video it occurs at 2m00.

40mph is where you have to start avoiding generating frequencies around 50Hz for signalling immunity reasons hence the frequency switch

345s don't really seem to make any of this noise. That said, at the very beginning of that video, the cabin is very quiet.

The Aventra power electronics are now all co-located in single box now separated so far easier to keep quiet. As the motors are now quieter the frequency change is less noticable, due to different gearing the 50Hz gap happens at different speeds

On a 345, it seems to vary greatly depending on which vehicle you're in. My preference is coach 3 of 7 in the direction of travel as it is far enough forward to stand a good chance of getting a transverse seat, but not in the transformer carriage, which is still a bit noisy, even if less so than the 387.
Good example of that noise from Leo Martin's video around the 5m30 mark.

A/C noise wise, try this one

Around 2m40, it pulls into Stratford. It's December (or so the video says), so it'll be cold outside without need for the A/C to work hard, yet it's pretty noisy in there when the train comes to a stand.
There is also an additional noise they seem to produce randomly which is on and off with no pattern I can work out. Struggling to find a video demonstrating that, best I can do is this one at 5m15:

Is that the traction blowers you're referring to? Unlike the rest of the traction noise it's clearly audible from inside.

yep that is the blowers - a lot quieter than 91s though!

After all that criticism though, another positive I forgot to mention is that the plug door seals are much better than the old ones. Passing high-speed services are barely noticeable, other than a quite satisfying muffled thud. Even original Electrostars were much less severe for this than old BR EMUs like 321s, but they've done an excellent job of isolating that noise on the Aventra, finally on par with what Siemens achieved with the Desiro UK.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Maybe it’s just time to accept that we are not going to see an reasonable entry to service of a passenger fleet with 100% reliability?

Yes quite.

Not only that, the short timescales that the TOCS seem to be demanding from the builders does not help either. I fail to understand why companies think it is okay to demand things in less time than should be taken on them.

 

[AM9]

Yes quite.

Not only that, the short timescales that the TOCS seem to be demanding from the builders does not help either. I fail to understand why companies think it is okay to demand things in less time than should be taken on them.

The other sides of the coin are either that delivery timescales are much longer with extended testing both off track and on (representative) routes, or Technology progression is much slower, only accepting minor advances in each generation of stock.
Looking back at the history (over 100 years) of EMUs in particular, up until the early '80s, the DC motor fed through a resistor bank controlled by contactors or camshaft sequencers reigned almost exclusively. They weren't very efficient in power or maintenance terms but their foibles were well known and were easy to get working properly, partly because the designs rarely changed other than in detail. The last pure DC trains BIG/CIG/VEP etc., wouldn't have looked that complex to a SR maintainer from the '30s.
Now the requirements of energy conservation, safety and lower maintenance feature more prominently in rolling stock specifications, manufacturers need to deliver trains that not only work in isolation, but also integrate with the signalling, power and PIS infrastructure railway, which for better or worse involves a lot of power electronics and IT equipment. As such, the trains can only be fully tested on the routes for which they have been ordered. Some subsystems can only be effectively proven in full passenger service (e.g. doors, PIS, HVAC controls) so it is inevitable that the end user/passenger will be exposed to in-service failures which can be a PR nightmare.
Recent programmes like class345s and 700s have shown that introduction can be difficult periods for TOCs but as the Thameslink programmes has shown, eventually the trains do eventually become as reliable in their intended role as any established types. No doubt the 345s will click soon enough. Compare that with the GE class 305s in the '60s which had to be temporarily withdrawn to fix the transformer failure issues when working under dual voltage ac OLE.

 

[samuelmorris]

At 3500 miles per incident, I'm not sure the Thameslink programme has shown that yet, but nonetheless I agree with the point :P - Admittedly compared to the 305s, the technical issues encountered thus far with modern stock are very minor from a safety standpoint.

 

[AM9]

At 3500 miles per incident, I'm not sure the Thameslink programme has shown that yet, but nonetheless I agree with the point :P - Admittedly compared to the 305s, the technical issues encountered thus far with modern stock are very minor from a safety standpoint.

Where did this 3500mpi figure come from and what types of incidents does it include/exclude?