Class 373 Eurostar withdrawals

[Crossforth]

HST power cars are unable to provide train supply to mark 4 vehicles as HSTs use a three phase supply, while mark 4s run off the normal 1000V supply provided by ETS fitted locomotives.

It would probably be possible to fit a generator within the van space of an HST power car to provide train supply, but the mark 4s do not become available until around 12 - 18 months after Scotrail begin to take delivery of their HST sets, post refurbishment.

How did I forget the old single phase/three phase problem.

Thanks for clearing that up

 

[rebmcr]

Assuming competent source-separation of the feedstock, there is no material difference between virgin and recycled steel. Aluminium is a little more tricky as slight differences in alloying metals can result in very different properties - but again, nothing that can't be avoided by careful separation at source.

Recycling is scrapping and yes, the resulting steel is as-new. Robbies was referring to re-use to avoid scrapping.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Are you going to say that a fourth time ? Because it's wrong. SNCF has always owned and still owns units 3201/3202-3231/3232. SNCB and EUKL have the rest.

Eurostar (UK) Ltd. effectively no longer exists (it's a dormant subsidiary of Eurostar International Ltd - EIL).

All Eurostar business, interests and assets of the 3 former operating partners, were transferred to the reformed and newly incorporated Eurostar International (EIL), in 2010, in return for receiving shares in the newly formed company.
That includes the trains, which I believe are technically listed as leased and have been used as security against bank loans.

The 3 Capitals sets and the NoL sets were transferred into the books of EIL at that time and have since been listed as assets of that company, albeit with very much reduced value (e.g. the NoL sets were reduced to almost scrap value right at the beginning in year 2010-11).

There is no longer any UK ownership/interest in Eurostar.
Hermes Investment Management, who own 10% of EIL, are London based, but represent a range of international and multi-national investors.
EIL is registered in London, but is effectively a SNCF subsidiary.

Although SNCF hold 55% of the share capital of EIL, they are formally recognised by agreement with the other shareholding parties, CDPQ (30%), HIM (10%) and SNCB (5%), as the controlling authority over the EIL entity.
For the purpose of ownership, under a "reverse acquisition accounting" principle, SNCF are regarded to have acquired EIL at the company's inception.

 

[najaB]

Recycling is scrapping and yes, the resulting steel is as-new. Robbies was referring to re-use to avoid scrapping.

I'm sorry, I interpreted this:

It is a shame that trains cannot be built with reused metal from previous trains being scrapped, although the strength of the metal probably would not be as good in the reused metal to build new trains.

To mean reusing the metal from trains being scrapped.

 

[rebmcr]

I'm sorry, I interpreted it to mean reusing the metal from trains being scrapped.

It's a bit ambiguous yes. Robbies, which did you actually mean?

 

[RobShipway]

I'm sorry, I interpreted this:
To mean reusing the metal from trains being scrapped.

I did mean to reuse the metal from the trains after they had been through the scrapping process so that they would be using as good as new steel as rebmcr suggests.

However, unless I am incorrect all new trains that have been built in the last say ten years have been built from steel that has not come from any steel scrapping process, but processes where new steel has been created.

 

[D365]

Why would recycled steel be any less stronger than that sourced from 'virgin' ore. That would kinda defeat the point of recycling in the first place.

Most new-build rolling stock uses aluminium bodyshells btw.

 

[RobShipway]

To answer your question D365, I was once told by someone from Bombardier when I questioned as to whether any of the steel parts of their trains came from re-cycled steel, I was told that they did not use recycled steel as it looses about 30% - 40% of strength in going through the recycling process compared to 'Virgin' ore steel.

However, as you state D365 recycled steel especially with modern recycling processes should not be any less stronger than new sourced 'Virgin' ore, because as you say it kinda defeats the reasoning for recycling.

I know when I put out any cardboard, plastic bottles or Coke cans it goes back into making other things or the items washed out and reused, so why should the scrapping of a train be any different. Surely, there is parts of the class 373 power units, coaches etc... that could be taken out of them and then modernized if needed, then reused.

 

[najaB]

To answer your question D365, I was once told by someone from Bombardier when I questioned as to whether any of the steel parts of their trains came from re-cycled steel, I was told that they did not use recycled steel as it looses about 30% - 40% of strength in going through the recycling process compared to 'Virgin' ore steel.

This is fundamentally incorrect. The only situation in which there would be a significant difference in the fundamental properties would be if they didn't source-separate and you ended up with an alloy. Though, if memory serves correct, steel doesn't really alloy with other metals. It didn't!

 

[hwl]

No different between virgin and recycled provided you make the effort to remove all the unwanted alloying elements (copper (from car wiring) being a right pain to remove. For some high performance uses recycled is actually preferred**.

Lucchini's* Italian factory actually has two on site electric arc furnaces for recycling and they pre-sort the incoming materials and recycle the steel themselves.

*Train wheel, tyre and axle manufacturers.

**Nuclear power applications

 

[richieb1971]

Can't believe the train is worth less than scrap value.

Its bonkers the world we live in today.

 

[D365]

Can't believe the train is worth less than scrap value.

Its bonkers the world we live in today.

What is? Making good use of a fleet of complex high-speed trains and then recycling them when they have reached a good age?

 

[Harbornite]

Can't believe the train is worth less than scrap value.

Its bonkers the world we live in today.

Not really. Do you know what depreciation is, and that it isn't a new concept?

 

[TheEdge]

Can't believe the train is worth less than scrap value.

Its bonkers the world we live in today.

Its a pretty standard process for all metal things. Sooner or later the metal in them is worth more than the the object itself.

I sold a P-reg Fiesta to a scrap man for £90 as the steel within it was worth £90 but as a car it was worthless.

 

[DarloRich]

Can't believe the train is worth less than scrap value.

Its bonkers the world we live in today.

The train isnt worth less than scrap value. As scrap it is worth quite a lot! The scrap value for steel (depending on grade) is somewhere between £80 & £100 per tonne. Copper is around £3 per kg & Aluminium is about £50p per kg.

If you have train to sell the offer for reuse has to provide the owner with a better return that selling it for scrap.

I know when I put out any cardboard, plastic bottles or Coke cans it goes back into making other things or the items washed out and reused, so why should the scrapping of a train be any different. Surely, there is parts of the class 373 power units, coaches etc... that could be taken out of them and then modernized if needed, then reused.

Any recycled product will just be sold on the open market. It wont, necessarily, go to make more trains. It might be used to make anything.

I am sure Eurostar will have cut out any parts that still have life or can be used to keep other trains going along with anything of particualr value. That is standard practice

 

[SpacePhoenix]

You've also got glass from windows and some plastics which also can be recycled, as to the scrap value of glass and plastics I've no idea.

 

[BestWestern]

You've also got glass from windows and some plastics which also can be recycled, as to the scrap value of glass and plastics I've no idea.

Not a great deal I wouldn't have thought, given that most local authority recycling schemes lose money and many won't touch glass.

 

[DarloRich]

Not a great deal I wouldn't have thought, given that most local authority recycling schemes lose money and many won't touch glass.

There is money in bulk but plastics especially are very grade dependent and many versions aren't cost effective to recycle.

 

[richieb1971]

When I said I can't believe the train is worth more as scrap than as a train, you guys basically just said it back to me.

So are we saying there is no buyer for the train? The train has no routes it can work anymore? Its a garbage train that sputters and conks out?

If these trains that are getting scrapped can still maintain a top speed of 200mph or whatever it is. I am shocked to see it go for scrap. In some records these trains are the 10th fastest train in the world.


The railway industry is surely a rare breed. On this very forum we have threads crying out for carriage stock whilst another thread shows a 1/4 mile train getting turned into washing machines.

 

[DarloRich]

When I said I can't believe the train is worth more as scrap than as a train, you guys basically just said it back to me.

Once again logic escapes you. Do you have any understanding of economics?

So are we saying there is no buyer for the train? The train has no routes it can work anymore?

There may (or may not) be other buyers who were interested. However, if their bids didn't offer a better return for the owner than the bid from the scrap yard it wont be accepted. Despite what spotters seem to think the rules of company governance or economics are not suspended when considering a train!

Its a garbage train that sputters and conks out?

If these trains that are getting scrapped can still maintain a top speed of 200mph or whatever it is. I am shocked to see it go for scrap. In some records these trains are the 10th fastest train in the world.


The railway industry is surely a rare breed. On this very forum we have threads crying out for carriage stock whilst another thread shows a 1/4 mile train getting turned into washing machines.

Tell me what routes you are going to use this 1/4 mile long 200 mph rocket ship on? I cant see it being much good on, say, most of northern network where capacity is needed or on TPE.

Please do try to grasp some of these concepts and look beyond an emotional response!

 

[adc82140]

But it's an unsuitable train- we're not short of Intercity type stock with the IEP programme- indeed there's still a question of what to do with the 91s and Mark IVs, which were designed for the "classic" British network, unlike the 373s

What we are short of is commuter stock and DMUs- which of course the Class 373 is neither.

Edit- DarloRich got there first

 

[D365]

What we are short of is commuter stock and DMUs- which of course the Class 373 is neither.

But it could be either, if Vivarail got their hands on it

Bearing in mind that they appear to be struggling now to find a market for their Class 230s, I hope that our rolling stock shortage is going to be resolved in the coming years.

 

[richieb1971]

Please do try to grasp some of these concepts and look beyond an emotional response!

My emotional response is one founded on a wasted train and has nothing to do with me being a spotter (Which I am not, the last time I took numbers I was 16).

The economics question should be done from the perspective that billions of pounds was spent on new stock whilst the old stock still worked. Considering each train probably got washed once or twice in their 30 year lifespan I'm surprised they upgraded the trains at all.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I am sure Eurostar will have cut out any parts that still have life or can be used to keep other trains going along with anything of particualr value. That is standard practice

From what I saw from pictures and videos, it looks as if the set sent for scrap was fully fitted out in the passenger area

 

[najaB]

My emotional response is one founded on a wasted train ...

It's only wasted if there is a use for it. I assure you, if there was a buyer willing to pay more than scrap value then they wouldn't be heading to Booths.

The economics question should be done from the perspective that billions of pounds was spent on new stock whilst the old stock still worked.

If I need apples it doesn't matter how many oranges are going spare.

 

[D365]

The economics question should be done from the perspective that billions of pounds was spent on new stock whilst the old stock still worked.

:roll: It's not a case of "It either works or it doesn't". Some trains 'work' better than others, in this instance the Class 374s are going to be far superior to their predecessors.

 

[47802]

My emotional response is one founded on a wasted train and has nothing to do with me being a spotter (Which I am not, the last time I took numbers I was 16).

The economics question should be done from the perspective that billions of pounds was spent on new stock whilst the old stock still worked. Considering each train probably got washed once or twice in their 30 year lifespan I'm surprised they upgraded the trains at all.

Well according to a comment from Tony Miles on WNXX there are some extremely good deals on new trains at the moment, so expect plenty more trains that are not that old to be heading for the scraper in the next few years.

That aside the Eurostar's aren't really suitable for much use in the UK, they are probably more suitable for the French given they are really a glorified TGV, and if they don't want them then the scraper beckons.

I really don't get this nonsense oh this must train must another x number of years, if there's better overall business case for new trains then so be it. The railway has been underinvested in for years making do with old trains in some cases long after they should have gone to the scrapper, but now there is maybe the opportunity to stop doing that and invest in modern trains, with lower operating costs.

 

[Phil.]

From what I saw from pictures and videos, it looks as if the set sent for scrap was fully fitted out in the passenger area

Just to go slightly off-topic for a moment... Years ago - pauses to swing the lamps - Kings at Snailwell were receiving Scottish D.M.U.s for scrapping. They actually refused a couple of sets because B.R. had removed some fittings and windows. Kings stated that they had bought complete coaches, not ones with bits missing. They were in the down yard at Ely for months before something was resolved.

 

[richieb1971]

Well according to a comment from Tony Miles on WNXX there are some extremely good deals on new trains at the moment, so expect plenty more trains that are not that old to be heading for the scraper in the next few years.

That aside the Eurostar's aren't really suitable for much use in the UK, they are probably more suitable for the French given they are really a glorified TGV, and if they don't want them then the scraper beckons.

I really don't get this nonsense oh this must train must another x number of years, if there's better overall business case for new trains then so be it. The railway has been underinvested in for years making do with old trains in some cases long after they should have gone to the scrapper, but now there is maybe the opportunity to stop doing that and invest in modern trains, with lower operating costs.

Do these carriages export excretion onto the track? Won't charter services in the future require replacement carriages with air conditional and so forth?

I'm only commenting as an observer and some of the things i've read on this forum state the carriage stock needs to meet new standards by 2018-2020 or something like that. Here we are cutting 100's of carriages up.

When these trains go up for sale are all potential buyers aware and are all potential avenues explored about refitting, refurbishing and re-purposing?

I'm assuming the carriages themselves are fit to run on our network since to deliver them to Kingsbury you have videos online showing a GBRF 66 hauling them there.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

This isn't a silly suggestion, but as the DPRK likes to buy older stock to replace even older stuff, I wonder if they've looked into getting a set or two for proposed services to the South...? Overhead line equipment would be of no issue and the DPRK line to the south is standard gauge - be cool to see that happening