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Class 373 Eurostar withdrawals

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33Hz

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As far as I'm aware there's been no complaint about the ICEs going for scrap - the first generations are of a similar vintage to the Class 373s.

The ICE 1s got a full strip down and refurb (including the electronics) in 2007/8 for €3m each, with a view to keeping them in service for another 15 years. Much, much cheaper than a new train.

By the time they are withdrawn they will be ~30, a fair bit different to the 22 or 23 years of TMSTs.

If the Germans can do a full mid life rebuild for that price...?
 
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coppercapped

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On the other hand you have the likes of GBRf and Brush/Wabtec investing heavily in resurrecting locos from this very era (Class 92s / 60s in particular) as they've deemed it a more cost effective option than buying new locos with these capabilities.

Bit of a different story for a full Eurostar rake hammered day-in/day-out at high speeds, though.

Why 'hammered'? I always found the ride exceptionally smooth...

(I suspect that the reason is more to do with the power electronics and body condition. One of the recommendations made after the Channel Tunnel and snow fiasco a few years ago was that clearances around the smoothing chokes should be increased. This was not possible under the existing roof line and a proposal was floated that, as the trains no longer needed to get to Waterloo, the roof should be raised. This update may well have turned out too expensive. I have also seen references to Alsthom's (as it was then) less that adequate corrosion protection on stock built around the same period).
 

59CosG95

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Why 'hammered'? I always found the ride exceptionally smooth...

(I suspect that the reason is more to do with the power electronics and body condition. One of the recommendations made after the Channel Tunnel and snow fiasco a few years ago was that clearances around the smoothing chokes should be increased. This was not possible under the existing roof line and a proposal was floated that, as the trains no longer needed to get to Waterloo, the roof should be raised. This update may well have turned out too expensive. I have also seen references to Alsthom's (as it was then) less that adequate corrosion protection on stock built around the same period).

Yep, exactly that. The power electronics really were the things that got the hammering.
 

coppercapped

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Yep, exactly that. The power electronics really were the things that got the hammering.

Why should that be? Apart from fans and isolation switches there's not much that moves and I suspect the pantographs have been regularly maintained.

(Unless it is being suggested that they, the power electronics, were underrated and have been running too warm and all the p-n junctions have migrated or diffused... :) )
 

33Hz

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And, as we know, all trains are the same...

Umm, they seemed to be when used as a comparitor up thread.

Just as the much more closely related TGVs getting a full refurb also seems to be dismissed.

If ICEs can be stripped down and have power electronics replaced and everything else at €3m per set then that is a useful yardstick. I'm sure Eurostar was more attempt at French job creation gone wrong than common sense.
 

Helvellyn

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A similar thing can be seen in the airline industry where you have an aircraft like the Boeing 777 that is twenty years old. A number of airlines are already phasing them out but British Airways have said they will operate them for thirty years (and they were a launch customer). A friend has explained to me that one of the reasons airlines are either ditching or keeping an aircraft like this is the computer software - you have to pay for a bespoke support package, which BA was supposedly happy to do but other airlines do not want.

Coming back to rail, at the end of the current South Western franchise the class 444/450 fleet wil have hit the twenty year mark and the maintenance agreement signed with Siemens (twenty years) will end. Given they are first generation UK Desiros and are considered to be heavy (track wear) I wouldn't be suprised to see these being proposed for scarp by some of the bidders. Sadly I think we will see more of this - operaters will weigh up maintenance costs versus new build and you just have to look at Abellio to see that they seem to favour new build if Greater Anglia and West Midlands are anything to go by.

As for Eurostar keeping eight 373s it seems odd, but if they are for peak use only and they feel they will have a load of spares from scrapping the majority of the fleet them maybe this makes sense. I also suspect they may be used on routes that a 374 can't be, e.g. someone mentioned ski trains.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Why should that be? Apart from fans and isolation switches there's not much that moves and I suspect the pantographs have been regularly maintained.

(Unless it is being suggested that they, the power electronics, were underrated and have been running too warm and all the p-n junctions have migrated or diffused... :) )

Electronic components like transistors have a max lifespan in terns of the number of operations (after which I'd assume that the chance of failure is expected to shoot up). Some components might be reaching their max lifespan
 

Jonny

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New? How many L- or M- registration cars do you see on the roads? And they haven't been used at high speed for 18 hours a day.

That's like comparing an annual plant (which dies after the first winter, no matter what) to a tree, which should last for the best part of a century, if not more!
 

43096

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The ICE 1s got a full strip down and refurb (including the electronics) in 2007/8 for €3m each, with a view to keeping them in service for another 15 years. Much, much cheaper than a new train.

By the time they are withdrawn they will be ~30, a fair bit different to the 22 or 23 years of TMSTs.

If the Germans can do a full mid life rebuild for that price...?
AIUI the first batch of ICE1 power cars (401001-005/007-019/501-520*) have received new IGBT power convertors but the later batch retain their GTOs.

DB are now talking about a further life extension on these sets to be done in the early 2020s. Interestingly this would see them outlive the ICE2s under DB's plan.


* 401020 was withdrawn with severe fire damage. 401006 also has GTO converters (presumably from Eschede accident withdrawal 401551)
 
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Jonny

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Electronic components like transistors have a max lifespan in terns of the number of operations (after which I'd assume that the chance of failure is expected to shoot up). Some components might be reaching their max lifespan

Old semiconductors can be easily reproduced, though. Especially once any patents have expired.
 

najaB

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If ICEs can be stripped down and have power electronics replaced and everything else at €3m per set then that is a useful yardstick.
That presumes that there isn't a fundamental difference between the two projects (e.g. a major component that is still available for the ICE units but not for the 373s). I don't know that there is, but unlike some I'm not assuming that there isn't.
 

Jonny

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AIUI the first batch of ICE1 power cars (401001-020/501-520) have received new IGBT power convertors but the later batch retain their GTOs.

DB are now talking about a further life extension on these sets to be done in the early 2020s. Interestingly this would see them outlive the ICE2s under DB's plan.

Which requires only a minimum of (re-)design work. Most of the cost would be from the size of the IGBT required, and this would be offset by:


  • Relatively low cost (vs a new train)

  • High probability, if not certainty, of success.

Oh, and even if new traction motors were needed, that's cheaper than a whole new train.
 
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43096

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Which requires only a minimum of (re-)design work. Most of the cost would be from the size of the IGBT required, and this would be offset by:


  • Relatively low cost (vs a new train)

  • High probability, if not certainty, of success.

Oh, and even if new traction motors were needed, that's cheaper than a whole new train.
Agreed. Interesting that such conversions are becoming more common: GBRf changing their Class 92s from GTO to IGBT, Porterbrook doing the same with the 323s and SBB likewise with their Re460s.

No doubt Eurostar could have done the same with the 373s, but the fact they have had no maintenance done on their bodywork would count against them, and being built by multiple manufacturers also adds in additional work/cost when doing mid-life refurbishment.
 

SpacePhoenix

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If they had done the conversion of the traction package, would they have needed any recertification of anything in the UK, Belgium or France?
 

DelW

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My instinct is that I find it a worrying trend really - expecting things to last a shorter and shorter time.

But then if trains can be built cheaper then it helps justify replacing them with new technology as it comes available. I can also console myself with the point that if the "older" trains get old quicker because of more intensive use then they have served their purpose anyway.

I shall now go back to clinging to Westerns and 37s :D.

It's hardly a new phenomenon - much of the post-war steam fleet lasted only a decade or so in service, with many of the first generation diesels managing even less before withdrawal. Of course it was an era of rapid changes in technology and the nature of the railway system.
 

DelW

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The difference is a car costs a few thousand pounds, whereas a rail vehicle is in the seven figure range.

My point was really that for a mechanical device, 23 years old is hardly 'new'. I work in the water industry, and pumps and the like are usually expected to be replaced on about a 30 year cycle.

In Britain, new car sales are over 2 million per year, so at a mean price of say £20k that would be an annual expenditure of over £40 billion, which I think would dwarf the annual expenditure on new trains. But I admit I'm going rather off-topic there.
 

coppercapped

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To respond to both Helvellyn (post 757) and SpacePhoenix (post 758) in one go!

Large commercial aircraft have a complete strip down every 6 years when the airframe is inspected, cracked parts repaired or replaced and all other flight critical components examined and replaced if necessary; it also has a repaint. If appropriate some components, avionics especially, may be updated. This is a very expensive procedure running into the millions, for a 747 it takes about 6 weeks. At the same time the plane is not earning any money.

Experience shows that it is economic to do this strip down three times, that is the last one will be done when the aircraft is about 18 years old. By the time the next strip down becomes due the plane will be 24 or 25 years old. By then improvements in operating economy because of better aerodynamics, structures, engines and avionics will mean that buying a new aeroplane after a quarter of a century is more advantageous than stripping down an existing one. There are few, if any, aircraft older than 24 or 25 flying in commercial service with any of the major airlines. It is not worth soldiering on with geriatric jets.

To transistors and similar. As I suggested in my earlier post the limit is not the number of operations per se. The limit is set by the chemical diffusion of the dopants in the semiconductors which define the p-n junctions, if the junctions drift or their performance decays the the device will move outside its designed performance limits. The rate of diffusion is set by a combination of temperature, time, materials and electric field strength. There is no set, immutable concept of max lifespan but obviously components will need to be replaced as their performance decays. So that’s why I asked if the power electronics had been run too hot - in the context of the age of the power electronics they are middle aged.

It seems to me there must be other grounds for Eurostar to get rid of most of its Class 373s - and it is not because they were 'hammered'.
 

ChilternTurbo

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Thanks for the heads up. Any ideas as to when the service will arrive from Temple Mills into St. Pancras? I can't seem to tell from Realtime Trains.
I'd like to get a few pictures at St. Pancras...
 
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Kingsbury Jn.

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I took my son to watch. The light wasn't that great as it was before sunrise. Coupled with using an iphone 5, the quality isn't very good. There were at least 6 or 7 other attendees so the internet should be awash with video and stills by now!
 

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ChilternTurbo

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I took my son to watch. The light wasn't that great as it was before sunrise. Coupled with using an iphone 5, the quality isn't very good. There were at least 6 or 7 other attendees so the internet should be awash with video and stills by now!
Out of interest, could you tell if the interior fixtures and fittings (seats etc.) were still in place?
 
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Kingsbury Jn.

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My son said that it looked as like the tables and seats were missing. I took a video from the overgrown trackside but the low light levels, combined with tinted windows, makes it difficult to say. My son took some photos so I will have a look at those. Edit: I have looked at a short video he took and it appears to still have the seats in place. Apparently he was looking at a buffet car and saw the chrome poles and little else!
 
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