Class 373 Eurostar withdrawals

[43096]

i think they have the capability too as exact same power cars just the limitation of single power car operation would be the main issue

As I understand it, the Three Capitals and NoL power cars are/were not identical, the NoL sets being different electrically that allowed them to run under UK 25kV domestic overheads.

 

[S-Car-Go]

Yes I initially wanted to ask about why an old set was stored on the Fawkham jct link after observing it while in the area...

While there is no intention or need to make 374 sets operate anywhere off HS1 and associated stations, I believe they are also built to a higher European gauge level (not sure which classification), so unlike 373s, 374s won't fit on most of the domestic network here.

Probably ran out of siding space at Temple Mills. I seem to recall they had capacity issues when 374s were being delivered and 373s were the staple rolling stock.

And yes 374s are chunky monkeys. They are "fatter" and built to Euro loading gauge. They only run on continental signalling, hence why you see black km/h speed boards approaching St Pancras.

 

[Ianno87]

They only run on continental signalling, hence why you see black km/h speed boards approaching St Pancras.

Class 373s switched from km/h to mph speed display when the driver selected "BR" mode when leaving the tunnel (or leaving HS1 in latter years).

TVM-430 signalling, as its name suggests, only works in km/h, and all speeds on HS1 are km/h.

 

[Roast Veg]

Class 373s switched from km/h to mph speed display when the driver selected "BR" mode when leaving the tunnel (or leaving HS1 in latter years).

TVM-430 signalling, as its name suggests, only works in km/h, and all speeds on HS1 are km/h.

Indeed you can tell by the use of white-on-black speed indicators to differentiate them in the UK.

 

[S-Car-Go]

Class 373s switched from km/h to mph speed display when the driver selected "BR" mode when leaving the tunnel (or leaving HS1 in latter years).

Yep. Selecting BR= gave you 750Vdc 3rd rail for Southern region in the Waterloo days. There was also a BR~ mode for UK 25kVac which would only have been used with the overhead supply at North Pole depot... I think. Those would give speeds to the driver in mph. All 6 other modes would switch to km/h.

 

[Gadget88]

Perhaps they will lease these trains out to Thalys Izzy? Then order more trains one the pandemic is over?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Perhaps they will lease these trains out to Thalys Izzy? Then order more trains one the pandemic is over?

But aren't the TMST's the only trains in the Eurostar fleet that can currently go to Lyon and the Alps?

 

[brad465]

Indeed you can tell by the use of white-on-black speed indicators to differentiate them in the UK.

From memory some those speed signs around Ashford offer both values but as the km/h is typically rounded up or down there is a difference between their values if one was converted to the other. For example there are 40mph sections with 60km/h signs linked to them, when actually 40mph is 64km/h. However anywhere that is 25mph/40km/h or 50mph/80km/h is almost an exact conversion (where 1 mile = 1.609km).

 

[superalbs]

But aren't the TMST's the only trains in the Eurostar fleet that can currently go to Lyon and the Alps?

It's a no! Here's a pic:

https://twitter.com/SL5494/status/1047283525802704898

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's a no! Here's a pic:

https://twitter.com/SL5494/status/1047283525802704898

The caption even says, a test run...

 

[popeter45]

as the question of 374's south of France has been raised again i'll bring this back up

no im saying they are already running the 374's on that route acording to VagonWeb

vagonWEB » Řazení vlaků » 2020 » EIL ES » ES 9097 Eurostar

www.vagonweb.cz

i assume 374's are already cleared for Marseille but just not run this year because Covid
there are no routes left that are 373 only

 

[Gadget88]

Will the 373’s ever run again after the pandemic? I am expecting a much reduced Eurostar for about a year since the south of France won’t be served. I wonder if they will order some new trains come 2022 when services pick back up?

 

[BahrainLad]

I saw a YouTube video of a 373 in service at STP on 12/12

 

[Ianno87]

Eurostar have 17 Class 374 sets, which just about stretches to do:

-Hourly Paris services (about 7 sets)

-Hourly Brussels services (about 6 sets), plus 1 "train in steam" beyond Brussels to Amsterdam

-1 set for Disneyland

That leaves one set for 'other' stuff - either extra Paris services or south of France services, plus one maintenance space.

You could of course have a less frequent Brussels service to free up sets for other things.

So Eurostar could stretch a credible service together with just 374s, but not much room for expansion.

 

[43096]

Eurostar have 17 Class 374 sets, which just about stretches to do:

-Hourly Paris services (about 7 sets)

-Hourly Brussels services (about 6 sets), plus 1 "train in steam" beyond Brussels to Amsterdam

-1 set for Disneyland

That leaves one set for 'other' stuff - either extra Paris services or south of France services, plus one maintenance space.

You could of course have a less frequent Brussels service to free up sets for other things.

So Eurostar could stretch a credible service together with just 374s, but not much room for expansion.

One maintenance spare? Yeah, right....

 

[popeter45]

if eurostar / greenspeed where to retire and replace the 373's i think would make alot more sence to take advantage of the loosening of tunnel rules and buy 200m long trains instead that are run as doubles most of the time, could offer much greater flexability such as more amsterdam services with a slit at brussels, able to run a smaller ski train and maybe ability to server more desitiations like colonge in the far long term

 

[Ianno87]

One maintenance spare? Yeah, right....

Just a back of envelope example of roughly how the numbers work out....

It does make me wonder if that's the reason the 374 fleet is the size it is - it enables easy 'downsizing' to a more basic level of service by dispensing with the 373s.

if eurostar / greenspeed where to retire and replace the 373's i think would make alot more sence to take advantage of the loosening of tunnel rules and buy 200m long trains instead that are run as doubles most of the time, could offer much greater flexability such as more amsterdam services with a slit at brussels, able to run a smaller ski train and maybe ability to server more desitiations like colonge in the far long term

The 400m rule was removed following Deutsche Bahn's challenging of the rules back in 2010 or so.

However, the cost of paths through the tunnel probably in practice mean that you'd need something like 400m of capacity to achieve the required revenue per path.

 

[popeter45]

However, the cost of paths through the tunnel probably in practice mean that you'd need something like 400m of capacity to achieve the required revenue per path.

I ment keeping the formations channel tunnel side 400m just as 2 200m trains coupled together, all would stay 400m as far as Brussels and Paris but would have ability to then split for better utilisation after that

E.g. half of all Brussels services could extend a 200m train to Amsterdam or the ski Train could couple up with the Disney service or a early morning Paris service at Lille

 

[brad465]

Given all the talk of Eurostar bailout demands and being in financial dire straits I expect the current 373s will either not be going anywhere anytime soon, or if withdrawn won't be replaced, unless it's possible to get new stock in despite potentially being bailed out.

 

[najaB]

Given all the talk of Eurostar bailout demands and being in financial dire straits I expect the current 373s will either not be going anywhere anytime soon, or if withdrawn won't be replaced, unless it's possible to get new stock in despite potentially being bailed out.

I have no knowledge specific to Eurostar but being in need of a bailout is not incompatible with getting new stock. One would assume that new stock would be cheaper to maintain and operate - doubly so if it meant going from a mixed to a homogenous fleet - so as long as the savings are greater than the lease/loan payments then it would be a mistake not to proceed with the replacement. In addition, if the new fleet allows the company to expand their service offering (e.g. new routes, higher frequencies) then it would make sense to proceed so that the bailout can be paid back sooner on the other side of the pandemic-induced drop in travel.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Given all the talk of Eurostar bailout demands and being in financial dire straits I expect the current 373s will either not be going anywhere anytime soon, or if withdrawn won't be replaced, unless it's possible to get new stock in despite potentially being bailed out.

Let's hope so, I want one more ride on my favourite trains before they're scrapped.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I have no knowledge specific to Eurostar but being in need of a bailout is not incompatible with getting new stock. One would assume that new stock would be cheaper to maintain and operate - doubly so if it meant going from a mixed to a homogenous fleet - so as long as the savings are greater than the lease/loan payments then it would be a mistake not to proceed with the replacement. In addition, if the new fleet allows the company to expand their service offering (e.g. new routes, higher frequencies) then it would make sense to proceed so that the bailout can be paid back sooner on the other side of the pandemic-induced drop in travel.

My feeling is that if the 373s are a casualty then they will not be replaced anytime soon. Really depends on what demand is expected anytime soon to decide if they will be kept. I assume the 373s were probably kept for marginal use otherwise they would have been replaced a while back ?.

 

[Ianno87]

My feeling is that if the 373s are a casualty then they will not be replaced anytime soon. Really depends on what demand is expected anytime soon to decide if they will be kept. I assume the 373s were probably kept for marginal use otherwise they would have been replaced a while back ?.

That is my (repeatedly stated, but maybe incorrect) theory- the 374 was sized as a "skeleton" fleet by Eurostar to cover basically the London/Brussels/Amsterdam/Paris core services, with the 373s to cover the "niceties" and expendable if necessary, to guard against a downturn in traffic.

 

[Roast Veg]

I was under the impression that they would have ditched the 373s long ago had they not been required for specific services (and Ashford, until the changes to the 374s, not that that matters right now).

 

[najaB]

I was under the impression that they would have ditched the 373s long ago had they not been required for specific services (and Ashford, until the changes to the 374s, not that that matters right now).

There definitely was an issue serving Ashford International but I could never figure out if the 373s were needed for those extra services or if they used them on the additional services because they had them and it made sense to keep the 374s on the core routes.

 

[Roast Veg]

By specific services I mean ski trains, where 374s were not cleared.

 

[najaB]

By specific services I mean ski trains, where 374s were not cleared.

I understood that. What I never got clear in my mind is if "not cleared" in this case means that there is a physical limitation, or if it's that they've never done the paperwork to clear them, preferring to use the 373s because they have more storage space and aren't needed to operate the core services.

 

[swt_passenger]

I understood that. What I never got clear in my mind is if "not cleared" in this case means that there is a physical limitation, or if it's that they've never done the paperwork to clear them, preferring to use the 373s because they have more storage space and aren't needed to operate the core services.

Was it possibly a signalling fault? The 374 didn’t have the right on board kit, so something or other had to be added to the platform lines, and that was supposed to have happened for about 2018 ish. But I think there was still an electrical noise issue that took ages to fix, maybe not until early 2020 - but that’s from memory...

 

[najaB]

Was it possibly a signalling fault? The 374 didn’t have the right on board kit, so something or other had to be added to the platform lines, and that was supposed to have happened for about 2018 ish. But I think there was still an electrical noise issue that took ages to fix, maybe not until early 2020 - but that’s from memory...

That was just at Ashford though, no? Or did that apply to the ski trains as well?

 

[swt_passenger]

That was just at Ashford though, no? Or did that apply to the ski trains as well?

I was just thinking of why 374 couldn’t call at Ashfird really.