Class 376s limited passenger service?

[SouthEastern-465]

We all know that wikipedias not always strictly correct but I have come across somthing that I found quite interesting, although don't know if its true concerning the Class 376 units:

"Also, no air conditioning is provided, with hopper style windows available for ventilation. In order to provide more standing room, the trains also have fewer seats, more handrails, and no on-board toilets (South Eastern promised to provide additional facilities in their stations to compensate) and are limited to 57 minutes on any single passenger journey as a result."

Can anyone tell me any more info and does this problem occur on any other units?

 

[A60K]

Does that perhaps mean that the longest service on which they currently run is timetabled for 57 minutes, rather than being a restriction on their use?

 

[asylumxl]

I'd imagine it was the longest end to end journey SE agreed to, possibly in a legal agreement or just an informal agreement?

 

[12CSVT]

376s have been known to work the Cannon Street - Woolwich - Slade Green - Crayford - Hither Green - Cannon Street circular workings which take around 90 minutes.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Don't they count that legally as two single journeys though, one to Slade Green and the other back again?

 

[Aictos]

Don't they count that legally as two single journeys though, one to Slade Green and the other back again?

I don't think it is as I think 2E47 which is the 09:37 Cannon Street to Slade Green arrives at 10:15 and returns as 2B41 which is the 10:45 Slade Green to Cannon Street meaning a turn round of 30 minutes which is reasonable for a commuter service.

The service to Cannon Street leaves a few minutes before the terminating service from Cannon Street arrives so I can't see it being classed as a complete 90 minute journey as it's only a 39 minute journey end to end although if someone did want to make a return journey then yes it might be close to 90 minutes although nearly 80 minutes would be more accurate!!!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

So it runs round in a circular pattern but pauses for 30 minutes at Slade Green?

Looks like 2 single journeys to me so definitely not in breach of any 57 minute limit!

 

[thefab444]

There are Cannon Street - Slade Green via Woolwich services, which as mentioned are two distinct separate services, with a reverse and turnaround time at Slade Green. There are also Cannon Street - Cannon Street loop services via Greenwich, Slade Green and Sidcup/Sidcup, Slade Green and Greenwich. The journey time end to end on these services is 86 - 92 minutes.

 

[Aictos]

So it runs round in a circular pattern but pauses for 30 minutes at Slade Green?

Looks like 2 single journeys to me so definitely not in breach of any 57 minute limit!

I'm not familiar with SE workings but yes it does seem to be that way, bit like some Welwyns and Hertfords are Moorgate to Moorgate via Hertford for example.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

My point is, wouldn't the loop services be regarded as a single trip out to Slade Green and a single trip back, regardless of whether there is any layover time or not at Slade Green?

Think of the Thameslink loop and how that is regarded...

 

[Aictos]

My point is, wouldn't the loop services be regarded as a single trip out to Slade Green and a single trip back, regardless of whether there is any layover time or not at Slade Green?

Think of the Thameslink loop and how that is regarded...

Yes, except the loop services on the Thameslink is a continuous trip, it may only be St Albans to Sutton then Sutton to Luton but it's still the same working.

 

[Barn]

My point is, wouldn't the loop services be regarded as a single trip out to Slade Green and a single trip back, regardless of whether there is any layover time or not at Slade Green?

Think of the Thameslink loop and how that is regarded...

The timetable posters on the Greenwich line include times for direct trains to stations on the Sidcup line. So I'd imagine some trains do go round as one journey.

But at London they're always advertised as Slade Green services. So the longest official journey would probably be Deptford to Lee or Hither Green. Is that just less than an hour?

 

[swt_passenger]

There are no laid down time limits for journeys on trains without toilets.
The DfT said as much only recently regarding the SN 313s.

 

[Wyvern]

Going back to the question if it is true that they have fresh air ventilation and not air conditioning, presumably it is because of the frequent stopping pattern and door opening.

It also means with my breathing problems I would prefer them.

 

[Class377/5]

I'd imagine it was the longest end to end journey SE agreed to, possibly in a legal agreement or just an informal agreement?

I'd say it's an informal agreement. As during FCC shortage of stock SE ran City Thameslink - Sevenoaks using 376 quite a few times. Its about 65mins run out one way.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Thanks for the replys. Another thing which I was confused about was, they are removing (Or was to my knowledge) toilets in Class 465/466s so does this rule/agreement apply on the 'Networker' units too?

 

[DVD]

I don't think toilets are being removed from the 465 / 466 fleet. They are gradually being 'refurbished' (although this doesn't seem to be much more than new seat covers, new pale blue door colour, and deep cleaning). I would be surprised if they remove the loos from the 465s, although they can be smelly and yucky.

Class 376's have very hard seats, and I always understood that they were not intended for journeys exceeding an hour because they are so uncomfortable (a real pain in the arse) - although they are much less claustrophobic than the Networkers.

 

[jopsuk]

"designed for" and "operate on" are quite different things!

Also, whilst they may have services that take that long, aren't they on routes for which most passengers that would make the longest possible journeys can take faster services?

 

[plannerman]

The 57 minute thing is a myth put about by Bob Crow. Southport to Hunts Cross on Merseyrail is 1h 3, and has never been operated by stock with toilets. Most stations en route don't have facilities either. If there were any legal problems the union would have walked out long ago (bless 'em)

 

[91101]

Yes, except the loop services on the Thameslink is a continuous trip, it may only be St Albans to Sutton then Sutton to Luton but it's still the same working.

They do have seperate headcodes for each leg, normally 2VXX or 2OXX on odd numbers heading south from LUT or SAC and 2VXX or 2OXX on even numbers heading north from Sutton.

 

[A60K]

The 57 minute thing is a myth put about by Bob Crow. Southport to Hunts Cross on Merseyrail is 1h 3, and has never been operated by stock with toilets. Most stations en route don't have facilities either. If there were any legal problems the union would have walked out long ago (bless 'em)

Agree - and how long was North Woolwich to Richmond or Watfors Junction to Broad Street/Liverpool Street. Back in the late 80s were there some 4EPBs with modified gearing that ran from Cannon Street to Ramsgate at peak hours, or am I getting that mixed up with something else?