Class 379 updates (all are OFF LEASE)

[St. Paddy]

I think it is more a case of the Treasury having a stranglehold over DfT expenditure rather than sense.
I have seen mentions elsewhere of if GN were to take the 379s on, they would need ETCS fitted as KGX-PBO is the first NR main line route to transition to a "signal less" railway. If this is true then someone will need to stump up a few million in installation costs - idea while they are sitting around in warm store.

Again. if this is true the DfT could be playing Russian roulette with the Rosco to see who will cave in and sign off the investment. While they are parked up they are costing money rather than earning, and maybe DfT think the Rosco will fit the ETCS equipment to get the trains earning again. On the other hand perhaps the Rosco will hold their nerve and wait for DfT to crumble. The other option of course is to either fit the 379s with 750V DC or switch around another fleet.

I am guessing there are storage sidings now available which the 365s vacated.

You do realise the 387s on the GN aren’t fitted with ETCS?

 

[43102EMR]

I think it is more a case of the Treasury having a stranglehold over DfT expenditure rather than sense.
I have seen mentions elsewhere of if GN were to take the 379s on, they would need ETCS fitted as KGX-PBO is the first NR main line route to transition to a "signal less" railway. If this is true then someone will need to stump up a few million in installation costs - idea while they are sitting around in warm store.

Again. if this is true the DfT could be playing Russian roulette with the Rosco to see who will cave in and sign off the investment. While they are parked up they are costing money rather than earning, and maybe DfT think the Rosco will fit the ETCS equipment to get the trains earning again. On the other hand perhaps the Rosco will hold their nerve and wait for DfT to crumble. The other option of course is to either fit the 379s with 750V DC or switch around another fleet.

I am guessing there are storage sidings now available which the 365s vacated.

ETCS is not a requirement on the Kings Cross to Peterborough route - only on the Northern City Line which if the 379s were to move to Great Northern, wouldn’t be cleared/needed to work on anyways…

 

[HamworthyGoods]

ETCS is not a requirement on the Kings Cross to Peterborough route - only on the Northern City Line which if the 379s were to move to Great Northern, wouldn’t be cleared/needed to work on anyways…

At the moment yes but it is planned to roll it out further on the ECML south.

 

[physics34]

How nuch is needed though to install ETCS. Lets just say all electrostars have ETCS isolation switches already installed.

 

[aleggatta]

All this talk of ETCS fitment seems a bit bizarre - NR is already paying first in class design/fitment on all fleets, electrostars have already been fitted with it and it’s not required yet anyway!

 

[St. Paddy]

All this talk of ETCS fitment seems a bit bizarre - NR is already paying first in class design/fitment on all fleets, electrostars have already been fitted with it and it’s not required yet anyway!

Aren’t the only ones fitted the Heathrow 387s, very much needed for them

 

[43102EMR]

Aren’t the only ones fitted the Heathrow 387s, very much needed for them

Depends on the level I think

 

[ert47]

Aren’t the only ones fitted the Heathrow 387s, very much needed for them

For the moment, yes. But I guess the experience gained from the installation on the HEX units will help with the GTR units when the time comes.

 

[AlexNL]

First in class fitment of ETCS to 387s is done, so it should be easier to fit the system to the remainder of the fleet.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's equally straightforward to fit it to 379s, there may be software or hardware differences which require some adjustments to the design.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

First in class fitment of ETCS to 387s is done, so it should be easier to fit the system to the remainder of the fleet.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's equally straightforward to fit it to 379s, there may be software or hardware differences which require some adjustments to the design.

There would also be software changes to fit Automatic Selective Door Opening and Wrong Side Door Release Prevention as per all the other GN rolling stock. Whilst none of this is overly difficult it does come at a cost, a cost that isn’t worth paying if the extra capacity isn’t needed.

 

[aleggatta]

First in class fitment of ETCS to 387s is done, so it should be easier to fit the system to the remainder of the fleet.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's equally straightforward to fit it to 379s, there may be software or hardware differences which require some adjustments to the design.

I remember reading somewhere on this forum, that the HX 387 ETCS kit is based from the Cl345 system, and that a new system was being designed to fit all other electrostars (i.e. we are likely to have two different ETCS kits fitted to Cl387 trains). I also imagine that once ETCS is fitted to the trains, the traditional Tracklink style beacon systems will be replaced with ETCS baliases, creating a nice round package to bring most electrostars up to the same spec 'traction' wise.

 

[D365]

HEx Class 387s are fitted with Bombardier ETCS, but Alstom wants to use their kit now.

 

[JonathanH]

HEx Class 387s are fitted with Bombardier ETCS, but Alstom wants to use their kit now.

Bombardier = Alstom now though.

 

[fgwrich]

I remember reading somewhere on this forum, that the HX 387 ETCS kit is based from the Cl345 system, and that a new system was being designed to fit all other electrostars (i.e. we are likely to have two different ETCS kits fitted to Cl387 trains). I also imagine that once ETCS is fitted to the trains, the traditional Tracklink style beacon systems will be replaced with ETCS baliases, creating a nice round package to bring most electrostars up to the same spec 'traction' wise.

That shouldn't make it too difficult then (if the same system is used), as if I recall correctly, the 379 uses the "Aventra Mk1" software rather than the MITRAC system used in the older units. I'm not sure how different it is to the 387s though.

 

[43102EMR]

Bombardier = Alstom now though.

Hence why Alstom want to use their own version - there will be many differences between the two.

 

[Mamorin]

The other option of course is to either fit the 379s with 750V DC or switch around another fleet.

I can see another fleet getting switched around tbh, not sure which fleet would get switch around though.

Can’t see shoes being fitted to the 379s, that would take a while and would any DC operator want them?

 

[Wyrleybart]

ETCS is not a requirement on the Kings Cross to Peterborough route - only on the Northern City Line which if the 379s were to move to Great Northern, wouldn’t be cleared/needed to work on anyways…

Really ? Not what I have been reading.
I am assuming the 387s have all the cabling etc prefitted whereas 379s are not.

 

[bramling]

Really ? Not what I have been reading.
I am assuming the 387s have all the cabling etc prefitted whereas 379s are not.

As a speculative point, how viable and costly would it be to devise a programme of works to essentially convert the 379s to full 387 spec?

 

[Razorblades]

As a speculative point, how viable and costly would it be to devise a programme of works to essentially convert the 379s to full 387 spec?

The cost of providing just a quote for this work would probably be ten grand, assuming all the drawings and technical data are provided. Bear in mind that although the two fleets were built at Derby, they aren't owned by the same leasing company, so permissions can't be taken for granted.

 

[bramling]

The cost of providing just a quote for this work would probably be ten grand, assuming all the drawings and technical data are provided. Bear in mind that although the two fleets were built at Derby, they aren't owned by the same leasing company, so permissions can't be taken for granted.

I suppose the big question is ... how much work would actually be involved in making the conversion? I'm thinking more from a technical point of view, rather than changing the seats!

 

[D365]

As a speculative point, how viable and costly would it be to devise a programme of works to essentially convert the 379s to full 387 spec?

ETCS fitments are complex enough that all installation designs are vehicle-specific. As mentioned upthread, Alstom are not fitting Bombardier ETCS kit, so the 379s would be getting their own fitment anyway.

 

[DanNCL]

91s still run on the Southern half of the ECML without any ETCS equipment and will continue to do so for some time yet, so why would 379s be prohibited from doing the same?

 

[SteveU821]

What exactly is ‘warm store’? 379 019 at Cambridge still has it’s pan down. 379 016 pan is down today. Both units haven’t moved for months. If they don’t move over to another TOC soon the probable outcome will be Sims scrapyard, I reckon.

 

[DanNCL]

What exactly is ‘warm store’? 379 019 at Cambridge still has it’s pan down. 379 016 pan is down today. Both units haven’t moved for months. If they don’t move over to another TOC soon the probable outcome will be Sims scrapyard, I reckon.

Storage where the units are powered up occasionally to keep the electrics operational. The pantographs won’t be raised all the time, they’re only raised when required to keep the batteries charged.

 

[D365]

91s still run on the Southern half of the ECML without any ETCS equipment and will continue to do so for some time yet, so why would 379s be prohibited from doing the same?

The IC225s are due to be replaced in the next three-five years - and it's a long while before ETCS will be fully operational beyond Drayton Park.

 

[dk1]

What exactly is ‘warm store’? 379 019 at Cambridge still has it’s pan down. 379 016 pan is down today. Both units haven’t moved for months. If they don’t move over to another TOC soon the probable outcome will be Sims scrapyard, I reckon.

Pans are raised for an hour or so & the units get moved slightly to assist the bearings every few weeks. Happen last weekend to the 4 in Wensum Sidings at Norwich.

 

[Razorblades]

I suppose the big question is ... how much work would actually be involved in making the conversion? I'm thinking more from a technical point of view, rather than changing the seats!

Yes, that's what I was basing my comment on really, and one would 'hope' that it boils down to adding additional functions to a backbone that was installed at build. However, without analysing the build specifications and as built drawings, it's not possible to quantify it.

 

[Fincra5]

When 379s were planned to move to GN they, like all GTR Electrostars (eventually), were penned to have ETCS fitted.

 

[D365]

Yes, that's what I was basing my comment on really, and one would 'hope' that it boils down to adding additional functions to a backbone that was installed at build.

To be blunt... it doesn't matter whether or not there is a "backbone". That description applies to any ETCS fitment, whether it be Tornado or a Class 37, Class 66, Class 325 or any Electrostar. But indeed you would hope that anything from Class 379 onwards is more straightforward...

 

[43102EMR]

To be blunt... it doesn't matter whether or not there is a "backbone". That description applies to any ETCS fitment, whether it be Tornado or a Class 37, Class 66, Class 325 or any Electrostar. But indeed you would hope that anything from Class 379 onwards is more straightforward...

The Class 387 is based directly off the Class 379… just has dual voltage, 110mph capability and worse seating… shouldn’t be too much extra legwork compared to a 387.