Class 387

[The Box Photter]

The person who recognised that the average journey time (at least North of the Thames) was about 25 minutes.

That wouldn't work (if all passengers thought like the posters here) as the trains with the better seats would be packed through the core and as far as St Albans/Harpenden, leaving fewer for the passengers going to/from outer suburban stations.

I remember those seats, (on the GE ac EMUs) - they were awful and the bounce pulled shirttails out. They were necessary as the bogies on stock like that were poor riders (mostly on jointed track as well) even at 75mph!

We aren't going backwards, seat posture is regarded as a major health issue and those old seats were very damaging to the spine according to the experts.
As far as season ticket costs, a £6000 season ticket on the MML is calculated as about £25 per working day including zones 1-6 as required. That is a fair rate for a 50+ mile journey. Those travelling on "the trains with the crappy seats for trains that ONLY operate short-distance" are paying a similar amount per mile.

I'll answer your points in turn.

The average number of legs each person has is less than two, but we still buy shoes in pairs.

According to GTR & the Thameslink mafia ALL the trains will be packed anyway. Its just as important for passengers coming INTO London from the far flung wastes of Bedfordshire to have a comfortable seat.

Surely the bogies on the new trains are so advanced that they ride better and therefore better sprung seats won't risk disrobing poorly attired passengers.

The 387 and 700 seats don't encourage a good posture in the seat. The back is too upright and lacks a lumbar contour and the seat is completely flat, making no allowance for the passenger's own "padding" (or lack thereof). The seat base is also inadequate for those with long legs, but also too deep for those with shorter legs, leading to poor blood circulation.

If you are a regular traveller on MML (EMT) services, you can reserve a seat in and a seat home if you use the same trains each day. The annual season ticket from St Albans or Mill Hill (actually within Zones 1-6) is a lot less than mine, I can tell you. In addition, if things go tits up and the OHLE blows down, I don't have the alternative of a tube/bus journey to get me home.

It always makes me chuckle when Thameslink tell me that my ticket will be accepted on London Buses and London Underground. I'll take advantage of that when the Northern Line is extended to Flitwick.

Whichever way the powers that be try to spin things, the 387s are fine (apart from the seats) but the 700s will introduce a new level of discomfort for Thameslink's longest suffering, most financially penalised passengers.

 

[Class377/5]

OK - one end of the unit only then? Incidentally, why is it classified DMOS rather than DMOC?

That's more to do with me reading some 377/6 stuff when I wrote that than the official term.
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If train and plane designers and operators were that concerned about survivability in crashes then all seating would face backwards. Easier to do in planes, not so easy in trains but passengers prefer to travel facing forwards.

Of course there's no such thing as backwards on a train as they are designed to reverse direction so not a greatly helpful comparison.

Worse still is in on aircraft it's expected for you to be sitting. Not quite the same on a train.

 

[fowler9]

That's more to do with me reading some 377/6 stuff when I wrote that than the official term.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Of course there's no such thing as backwards on a train as they are designed to reverse direction so not a greatly helpful comparison.

Worse still is in on aircraft it's expected for you to be sitting. Not quite the same on a train.

To be fair I think it was meant in comparison to the direction of travel.

 

[Class377/5]

To be fair I think it was meant in comparison to the direction of travel.

But you can't have that on the railways. It goes both ways.

 

[Peter Sarf]

But you can't have that on the railways. It goes both ways.

I have seen trains around the world where the back rests could be flipped so that the seats faced forwards ready for the return from a terminus. They were however pretty basic bench seats with a wooden backrest.

I have encountered other, nicer seats, where each pair of seats is on a turntable. I used said seats on a service into Hong Kong from China (Guangzhou if you forgive my spelling) in 1996. I should imagine the seat pitch was pretty poor though as there was oodles of legroom which also allowed for the double seat to rotate of course. Off topic but there was also an at seat food service - the rice was OK but I was brought up to avoid "cooked" chicken that still had blood in it !.

Anyway those were obviously done to achieve seats always facing the direction of travel but they could be used to make everyone go backwards. Funny thing is on a plane that seats facing backwards would not really be contentious as, for most of a flight, there is nothing to see.

 

[LBSCR Times]

But you can't have that on the railways. It goes both ways.

A ride on the Shinkansen saw seats being swivelled to face the direction of travel on arrival at Tokyo, before going back out.

I remember something similar years ago when travelling in parts of Norway.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

seats on SUB/EPB/VEP/CIG were far from awful.

The 377/5, 377/6, 387 and 700 seats are much more likely to cause back problems because of lack of cushioning and springs and the impact on your lower back and coccyx, especially if you travel for a total of 3 hours or more per day.

Poor ride quality of this stock (cant comment on the 700s) doesnt help.

Posture on these seats is good though.

This may be of interest:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6187080.stm

Sitting up straight is not the best position for office workers, a study has suggested.
Scottish and Canadian researchers used a new form of magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) to show it places an unnecessary strain on your back.
They told the Radiological Society of North America that the best position in which to sit at your desk is leaning back, at about 135 degrees.

 

[physics34]

This may be of interest:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6187080.stm

you end up getting a sore neck if you sit like that for a while lol

 

[AM9]

seats on SUB/EPB/VEP/CIG were far from awful.

The 377/5, 377/6, 387 and 700 seats are much more likely to cause back problems because of lack of cushioning and springs and the impact on your lower back and coccyx, especially if you travel for a total of 3 hours or more per day.

Poor ride quality of this stock (cant comment on the 700s) doesnt help.

Posture on these seats is good though.

The 6 a side seats on the SUBs that I was referring to were the same as the 304/305/307 & 308 types on the NW & GE EMUs. They were pretty uncomfortable compared with modern seats and certainly didn't give any real support. The VEP/BIG/CIG seats were quite firm with wooden bases. Their problem was that foam was of poor quality and quickly compressed until the hard edge of the seats was uncomfortable.

I've experienced the newest styles Electrostar seats since the 377/6 & /7s were introduced and find them fine even for quite long durations. I did Bedford to Brighton in 387121 on its first day in service (1W29) on 5 Feb last year. The seat was surprisingly comfortable despite its thinner layer of firm padding.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'll answer each of your points separately to avoid a error as occurred in your first answer.

The average number of legs each person has is less than two, but we still buy shoes in pairs.

I have absolutely no idea what that has to do with the choice of seating that has been selected as "fit for more than 20 minutes" (your words) based on their use where the average journey time is 25 minutes, (on TL MML).​

According to GTR & the Thameslink mafia ALL the trains will be packed anyway. Its just as important for passengers coming INTO London from the far flung wastes of Bedfordshire to have a comfortable seat.

The new timetables will have more peak and more off-peak seats than at present. They will also have many more standing spaces than at present which will give a far greater total capacity on the route than could possible be provided with 319s/Electrostars. It is this total capacity that is required over the next three decades.​

Surely the bogies on the new trains are so advanced that they ride better and therefore better sprung seats won't risk disrobing poorly attired passengers.

Within limits they (probably) will, but the problem was with the fixed seat back and the bouncy seat squab. Any movement rubbed clothing up and down the fixed back.​

The 387 and 700 seats don't encourage a good posture in the seat. The back is too upright and lacks a lumbar contour and the seat is completely flat, making no allowance for the passenger's own "padding" (or lack thereof). The seat base is also inadequate for those with long legs, but also too deep for those with shorter legs, leading to poor blood circulation.

YMMV. I am over 6ft tall and find them comfortable, as do many others. Maybe you would prefer the low seats on the 319s that everbody seems to complain about.​

If you are a regular traveller on MML (EMT) services, you can reserve a seat in and a seat home if you use the same trains each day. The annual season ticket from St Albans or Mill Hill (actually within Zones 1-6) is a lot less than mine, I can tell you. In addition, if things go tits up and the OHLE blows down, I don't have the alternative of a tube/bus journey to get me home.

The basic MML ticket from Flitwick to St Pancras is just under 19p per mile. The same type of ticket from St Albans to St Pancras is just under 35p per mile and for Mill Hill Broadway is just over 26p per mile, so I don't know how the Flitwick ticket can be described as dearer than the other two.​

It always makes me chuckle when Thameslink tell me that my ticket will be accepted on London Buses and London Underground. I'll take advantage of that when the Northern Line is extended to Flitwick.

St Albans is eight miles beyond the outermost TfL bus services and about 6 miles beyond Watford Junction Overground and Stanmore or Edgware LUL, so not much better then Flitwick when everybody wants to find a way home. Things like that are part of the choice of where to live/work, just like the lower cost per mile on the longer journeys.​

Whichever way the powers that be try to spin things, the 387s are fine (apart from the seats) but the 700s will introduce a new level of discomfort for Thameslink's longest suffering, most financially penalised passengers.

But at least you will usually manage to get on them wherever you try to board, unlike how it will be in five years if nothing changes from the present situation.​

 

[Peter Mugridge]

you end up getting a sore neck if you sit like that for a while lol

Only if you hold your head up too high. I've got a chair at home in which I sit to read at that angle and never have any neck problems. It really does do wonders for my back as well, just as the article suggests.

 

[trainmania100]

Does anyone know if 387201 is out to play today?
Thanks

 

[Philip C]

...... The VEP/BIG/CIG seats were quite firm with wooden bases. Their problem was that foam was of poor quality and quickly compressed until the hard edge of the seats was uncomfortable. ......

I've experienced the newest styles Electrostar seats since the 377/6 & /7s were introduced and find them fine even for quite long durations.

I travelled from the Sussex Coast to London on BIGs, CIGs and, when it couldn't be avoided, VEPs; and did this, on a daily basis, for a total of nearly thirty years. At no time did I find the seating, either Second/Standard or First Class uncomfortable. I think the key to this lay in the provision made for head and neck support which was acceptable whilst awake or sleeping (and sleeping en route was/is an important part of longer distance travel). The older build of mainline stock was much better for this but even the newer stock was more than adequate. VEPs posed particular challenges: whilst the curtains remained they could be used to stuff the gap between headrest and window, which helped; but I never found a winning way to cope with their extreme draughtiness (it was as if no one had measured the doorhole before ordering the doors).

I disagree that the firmness of the seats was ever an issue and Brighton, certainly, looked after the stock well.

Before I retired the Electrostars had arrived and the hard arm-rests, poor head support and pernicious placement of some of the table supports made them an obviously retrograde step for 90"+ journeys. As I used First Class I was spared the rigors of SouthEastern's 375/9 series.

To date I have sampled travel in just one Class 387 and found pains creeping into my nether regions after about 20". I suspect that it is the inability to place any reliance on the head/neck support, and the range of comfortable postures that are thereby impossible to adopt, that is at the root of what I regard as a "problem", though thicker cushions would do no harm. I also doubt that I could sleep in those seats which, as I have indicated, would be a major issue were I contemplating ever travelling for 3 hours a day on this stock.

It would be nice to think that the progression of the years would improve the traveller's lot - I fear that it will not.

 

[cjmillsnun]

But you can't have that on the railways. It goes both ways.

From the point of view of seat reservations, oh yes you can.

 

[Class377/5]

Does anyone know if 387201 is out to play today?
Thanks

Not at present. Should be out later. Maybe.

 

[fgwrich]

So, as this thread is about the 387s, and as the first services are due to start running this year from Paddington - has there been any news on the GW ones yet?

 

[swt_passenger]

So, as this thread is about the 387s, and as the first miserable thing is due to start running this year from Paddington - has there been any news on the GW ones yet?

Other than the fact they are getting all 29 of the 387/1s, during the next year or so, and another 8 that are yet to be built?

 

[fgwrich]

Other than the fact they are getting all 29 of the 387/1s, during the next year or so, and another 8 that are yet to be built?

Of course! Apologies, I rather forgot that the first units will be released from Thameslink first. I presume Derby is still working through the Gat Ex order at the moment with little progress on the GW ones?

 

[swt_passenger]

Of course! Apologies, I rather forgot that the first units will be released from Thameslink first. I presume Derby is still working through the Gat Ex order at the moment with little progress on the GW ones?

I think that the '8 extra' were always intended to be the next batch after the GatEx 387/2s, didn't the 387/2 order get confirmed first anyway?

People have also suggested there may be a further delay until after the 'Porterbrook speculative order' for 20 units, but I don't think there's been any formal announcement by Bombardier about that.

 

[Class377/5]

So, as this thread is about the 387s, and as the first services are due to start running this year from Paddington - has there been any news on the GW ones yet?

They will be running in the next few months. Will be timetabled from May.

 

[Class 170101]

but passengers prefer to travel facing forwards.

Strange pergaps but I can travel either way on a train but generally sit in a position where I can see what is going on and not be approached unsuspectingly from behind.

On a bus however I can't face backwards - I feel ill.

 

[Class377/5]

387203 came into service this morningon the 0547 Brighton to London Bridge servicve for Thameslink.

 

[capital12]

387203 came into service this morningon the 0547 Brighton to London Bridge servicve for Thameslink.

And seems to have failed? Its workings since 0942 have been cancelled due to train fault.

 

[Class377/5]

And seems to have failed? Its workings since 0942 have been cancelled due to train fault.

It came out of service at London Bridge with a fault. Then went back south empty with 377145/387201/387112. The first 377/387 combo on the mainline.

 

[GatwickDepress]

It came out of service at London Bridge with a fault. Then went back south empty with 377145/387201/387112. The first 377/387 combo on the mainline.

I wasn't even aware the 387s were compatible with 377s! Is it possible to have a 377/387 combo in passenger service or is it for empty stock use only?

 

[trainmania100]

Hi what was the working it went south on?

Never mind ive found it lol

 

[Deepgreen]

I wasn't even aware the 387s were compatible with 377s! Is it possible to have a 377/387 combo in passenger service or is it for empty stock use only?

I think it has been stated here previously that the latter only is possible. Interesting to have a 377, 387/1 and 387/2 formation, even if only ECS.

 

[Class377/5]

I think it has been stated here previously that the latter only is possible. Interesting to have a 377, 387/1 and 387/2 formation, even if only ECS.

Correct

 

[bangyuk]

Reading this, and having experienced a 387 last week, I seriously think it would be worthwhile bringing some kind of cushion. But it might need to be modified to stop slipping. If I succeed in making something work you may see me outside Three Bridges selling them . . .

 

[387star]

At least these 387s have a much improved seat back table design that hopefully won't squeak

 

[AM9]

Reading this, and having experienced a 387 last week, I seriously think it would be worthwhile bringing some kind of cushion. But it might need to be modified to stop slipping. If I succeed in making something work you may see me outside Three Bridges selling them . . .

Don't you think that if the seats were as bad as you imply, that passengers would have already done something about that? I doubt that postings here complaining about the firm seats are typical of most passengers. St Albans station has the largest number of passengers commuting into London on 377/s and 387s and complaints about seats are hardly an issue. Most users are just grateful for the extra capacity that they bring.