Class 387s speeds

[William3000]

I’ve travelled on the King’s Lynn to London King’s Cross trains several time and despite class 387s having a top speed of 110mph (177km/h), they rarely seem to travel over 100mph (161km/h), though they occasionally do.

Is there a reason why - is it to do with pathings - given that they run on the fast lines I would have thought it beneficial for them to run at 110mph where possible.

 

[hexagon789]

I’ve travelled on the King’s Lynn to London King’s Cross trains several time and despite class 387s having a top speed of 110mph (177km/h), they rarely seem to travel over 100mph (161km/h), though they occasionally do.

Is there a reason why - is it to do with pathings - given that they run on the fast lines I would have thought it beneficial for them to run at 110mph where possible.

Still on the previous 100mph 365 timings AFAIK. The better acceleration and 110mph capabilities are thus probably more beneficial for recovering late running on the ECML itself.

 

[RailWonderer]

The ECML iirc is all 100mph south of Hitchin so not a chance to use 110mph unless you raised line speeds Ely - King's Lynn, which won't be happening anytime soon.

 

[hexagon789]

The ECML iirc is all 100mph south of Hitchin so not a chance to use 110mph unless you raised line speeds Ely - King's Lynn, which won't be happening anytime soon.

It is 125mph as far south as Welwyn North tunnel and 115 until just after Potters Bar.

 

[RailWonderer]

It is 125mph as far south as Welwyn North tunnel and 115 until just after Potters Bar.

That's not what I remeber being told on this forum years back when it was asked why the 387s never used 110mph. Is that on the up line to Kings Cross or the down as well?

 

[Magdalia]

It is 125mph as far south as Welwyn North tunnel and 115 until just after Potters Bar.

That's right. There's about 20 miles of track used by Cambridge line trains that is passed for more than 100 mph. The difference between 100 mph and 110 mph is about 3 seconds per mile so the maximum potential saving is about 1 minute.

But it isn't just about the track speeds, it is also about the interaction between multiple pantographs and the overhead line equipment.

It is also worth pointing out that there are very few Peterborough trains worked by class 387s now, the remaining workings mostly use the slow lines between Hitchin and Huntingdon, and that the two track part of Huntingdon-Peterborough is 100 mph. So the benefits of 110 mph on the Peterborough line are tiny.

 

[hexagon789]

That's not what I remeber being told on this forum years back when it was asked why the 387s never used 110mph. Is that on the up line to Kings Cross or the down as well?

Both lines, though it goes up to 115 about 4.5 miles earlier than where it reduces to 100mph towards London.

That's right. There's about 20 miles of track used by Cambridge line trains that is passed for more than 100 mph. The difference between 100 mph and 110 mph is about 3 seconds per mile so the maximum potential saving is about 1 minute.

But it isn't just about the track speeds, it is also about the interaction between multiple pantographs and the overhead line equipment.

It is also worth pointing out that there are very few Peterborough trains worked by class 387s now, the remaining workings mostly use the slow lines between Hitchin and Huntingdon, and that the two track part of Huntingdon-Peterborough is 100 mph. So the benefits of 110 mph on the Peterborough line are tiny.

The benefits are going to be small, but I maintain that the capability is useful if needed. Even recovering 1 min, in addition to any allowances in the timetable could be useful at recouping delays.

 

[bramling]

Both lines, though it goes up to 115 about 4.5 miles earlier than where it reduces to 100mph towards London.


The benefits are going to be small, but I maintain that the capability is useful if needed. Even recovering 1 min, in addition to any allowances in the timetable could be useful at recouping delays.

The small saving might have been more valuable if they were the only 100 mph trains on the southern end of the ECML. However they aren’t, as the 700s are 100 mph.

As regards the fast Peterborough trains, there will be fewer 387s on these from May anyway.

 

[hexagon789]

As regards the fast Peterborough trains, there will be fewer 387s on these from May anyway.

Replaced by?

The small saving might have been more valuable if they were the only 100 mph trains on the southern end of the ECML. However they aren’t, as the 700s are 100 mph.

True and 700s also shift noticeably quicker.

 

[St. Paddy]

Class 387s are not permitted to above 100mph on the GN, although trials were done when they first arrived, clearance was never taken forward.

 

[AM9]

Replaced by?


True and 700s also shift noticeably quicker.

Yup, 16.34hp/tonne vs 387's 12.5hp/tonne, also better riding at those speeds than an Electrostar.

 

[hexagon789]

Class 387s are not permitted to above 100mph on the GN, although trials were done when they first arrived, clearance was never taken forward.

Fair enough. Possibly the TOC safety case is only 100 as well?

Yup, 16.34hp/tonne vs 387's 12.5hp/tonne, also better riding at those speeds than an Electrostar.

Quite possibly, my only observation was much faster low and medium speed acceleration. They get to even as high as 75mph so quickly it's ridiculous!

 

[bramling]

Replaced by?

700.

I should add that what I’ve seen is only in draft form, so may be subject to change.

The May timetable on GN will essentially throw everything up in the air, as the Kings Lynn services will once again be interworking with the stopping Cambridge services as well as the handful of remaining fast Peterborough services.

This timetable also marks the end of 387s being timed as 365. I presume 387s and 700s will hence be timed the same. I’m not sure if there was ever any real difference on GN anyway.

 

[RailWonderer]

700.

I should add that what I’ve seen is only in draft form, so may be subject to change.

The May timetable on GN will essentially throw everything up in the air, as the Kings Lynn services will once again be interworking with the stopping Cambridge services as well as the handful of remaining fast Peterborough services.

This timetable also marks the end of 387s being timed as 365. I presume 387s and 700s will hence be timed the same. I’m not sure if there was ever any real difference on GN anyway.

Does that mean 387s on Cambridge stoppers and 700s on Kings Lynn fasts?

 

[62484GlenLyon]

I assume this means the Ely trains will interwork with the Kings Cross to Letchworth stoppers.

 

[bramling]

Does that mean 387s on Cambridge stoppers and 700s on Kings Lynn fasts?

Yes definitely, though I’m not yet clear to exactly what extent.

It *seems* the plan is to skew things more in favour of the 387 fleet, but what I’ve seen is only draft so not to be taken as gospel yet. I would presume Kings Lynn will remain primarily 387 though, the saving grace here being that IIRC Kings Lynn drivers don’t have 700s on their traction card.

This would appear logical since they seem to have been struggling with 700/0 availability for some while, and there’s presumably a small amount of slack in the 700/1 fleet with the post-Covid reduction in peak Thameslink services on the Midland/Southern sides.

I assume this means the Ely trains will interwork with the Kings Cross to Letchworth stoppers.

Yes the whole lot is interworking. The only things staying largely segregated are the core Thameslink through services, though even here there’s some bleeding over.

 

[AM9]

Fair enough. Possibly the TOC safety case is only 100 as well?


Quite possibly, my only observation was much faster low and medium speed acceleration. They get to even as high as 75mph so quickly it's ridiculous!

I was adding to your comment to the effect that 'it isn't surprising as their power to weight ratio is so much higher'. Both classes have similar power at the wheels, but the 700s are 22% lighter.

 

[Magdalia]

The May timetable on GN will essentially throw everything up in the air, as the Kings Lynn services will once again be interworking with the stopping Cambridge services as well as the handful of remaining fast Peterborough services.

This has been done before, for at least two separate periods during the pandemic. The Kings Lynn and Ely trains were in separate cycles, with the former all class 387 and the latter a mix of class 387 and class 700. If I remember correctly the only weekday class 700 to Kings Lynn was the 1620 starter from Cambridge.

 

[Fincra5]

Fair enough. Possibly the TOC safety case is only 100 as well?


Quite possibly, my only observation was much faster low and medium speed acceleration. They get to even as high as 75mph so quickly it's ridiculous!

More the ECML wires are a bit, well, ****e... The Pantographs, in multiple are quite close, which I don't believe the wires would like at 110mph.

387s are used at 110 on the GWR without issue but then the OHLE is newer... and stronger.

 

[Hadders]

As regards the fast Peterborough trains, there will be fewer 387s on these from May anyway.

700.

I should add that what I’ve seen is only in draft form, so may be subject to change.

Noticed the 18:12 from Kings Cross was a 12-car tonight. It's normally an 8 so don't know if this is a permanent change.

Interestingly the corresponding morning Peterborough fasts are filling up. They really need to re-introduce the 06:34 from PBO (calls Stevenage 07:21). The 07:17 from Stevenage is regularly full and standing.

 

[43074]

Noticed the 18:12 from Kings Cross was a 12-car tonight. It's normally an 8 so don't know if this is a permanent change.

Yes the 1812 is a booked 12-car 387 on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday only. From May it is planned for a 12-car 700.

 

[TurboMan]

More the ECML wires are a bit, well, ****e... The Pantographs, in multiple are quite close, which I don't believe the wires would like at 110mph.

387s are used at 110 on the GWR without issue but then the OHLE is newer... and stronger.

Sort of. The first 12 miles out of Paddington which was electrified when the Heathrow service first began back in 1998(?) is largely headspan. Beyond Airport Jct. it's the more robust portal/cantilever. GWR's 387s were initially restricted to 100mph on '0-12' but extra testing was carried out and they can now run at 110 on the up/down main.

 

[Deepgreen]

The ECML iirc is all 100mph south of Hitchin so not a chance to use 110mph unless you raised line speeds Ely - King's Lynn, which won't be happening anytime soon.

I'm certain I've been at 125mph very many times south of Hitchin.

 

[hexagon789]

I'm certain I've been at 125mph very many times south of Hitchin.

Almost certainly, but not in a 387!

 

[Hadders]

Yes the 1812 is a booked 12-car 387 on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday only. From May it is planned for a 12-car 700.

Ah that makes sense mid-week.

Looks like I'll need to change my train of choice from May for my journey home from work!

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Ah that makes sense mid-week.

Looks like I'll need to change my train of choice from May for my journey home from work!

To get a 700 or to avoid a 700??

 

[Hadders]

To get a 700 or to avoid a 700??

Avoid! Looks like the 18:33 LNER will have to do!

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Avoid! Looks like the 18:33 LNER will have to do!

Correct answer!!!

 

[bramling]

Noticed the 18:12 from Kings Cross was a 12-car tonight. It's normally an 8 so don't know if this is a permanent change.

Interestingly the corresponding morning Peterborough fasts are filling up. They really need to re-introduce the 06:34 from PBO (calls Stevenage 07:21). The 07:17 from Stevenage is regularly full and standing.

From memory I think the 1812, and one morning up service, are 12-car on Tuesdays to Thursdays only since the timetable change. However as things stand at the moment there will be a nice surprise for people come May, as both these services will be changing to a 700/1 (didn’t think to check what happens on Mondays and Fridays, so might be different on those days, but as this ties in with the Thameslink stabling at Peterborough perhaps not).

Changing services won’t necessarily help, as I think from memory at least one of the other Peterborough peak services is changing to 700/0. However in contrast most of the Cambridge and Letchworth stopping services will be 387s, so that will offer an alternative for those who dislike 700s, albeit with the penalty of a slower journey.

 

[William3000]

The ECML iirc is all 100mph south of Hitchin so not a chance to use 110mph unless you raised line speeds Ely - King's Lynn, which won't be happening anytime soon.

I have travelled at 110mph on a 387 south of Hitchin it’s just not very common.

Yes definitely, though I’m not yet clear to exactly what extent.

It *seems* the plan is to skew things more in favour of the 387 fleet, but what I’ve seen is only draft so not to be taken as gospel yet. I would presume Kings Lynn will remain primarily 387 though, the saving grace here being that IIRC Kings Lynn drivers don’t have 700s on their traction card.

This would appear logical since they seem to have been struggling with 700/0 availability for some while, and there’s presumably a small amount of slack in the 700/1 fleet with the post-Covid reduction in peak Thameslink services on the Midland/Southern sides.



Yes the whole lot is interworking. The only things staying largely segregated are the core Thameslink through services, though even here there’s some bleeding over.

From memory I think the 1812, and one morning up service, are 12-car on Tuesdays to Thursdays only since the timetable change. However as things stand at the moment there will be a nice surprise for people come May, as both these services will be changing to a 700/1 (didn’t think to check what happens on Mondays and Fridays, so might be different on those days, but as this ties in with the Thameslink stabling at Peterborough perhaps not).

Changing services won’t necessarily help, as I think from memory at least one of the other Peterborough peak services is changing to 700/0. However in contrast most of the Cambridge and Letchworth stopping services will be 387s, so that will offer an alternative for those who dislike 700s, albeit with the penalty of a slower journey.

Why are some stoppers on London KX to Cambridge becoming 387s? They are obviously slightly more comfortable trains than 700s and allow for 4 car or 8 car formations - is that the reason? Are more 387s available? Are 700s being displaced?