Class 397 125mph?

[edwin_m]

Yes, that's one of the odd sections of the WCML (the others are on the Birmingham loop) which allow common HST/EPS speeds.
On that route, presumably that just applies to Azuma/IC225 sets and 397?
It's downhill anyway, and 2 miles is not going to make any difference at all to journey times (before the signal check at Motherwell!).

It would also apply to the XC Voyagers that use it every couple of hours.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It can take months for the Sectional Appendix to be updated whereas gauging restrictions can be lifted overnight so the SOC always takes precedence, otherwise there would be unacceptable delays in bringing new stock into service.

 

[LowLevel]

HST speeds apply to trains permitted to use MU or SP differentials.

Since when? Our non-yaw damper fitted 156s can only use SP restrictions but not HST, there are a few places on our routes where our drivers have to be on the ball if they have a 156 vice 158 (which can use the HST differential).

 

[The Planner]

It can take months for the Sectional Appendix to be updated whereas gauging restrictions can be lifted overnight so the SOC always takes precedence, otherwise there would be unacceptable delays in bringing new stock into service.

That is somewhat of a problem considering it is technically the bible of infrastructure.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

That is somewhat of a problem considering it is technically the bible of infrastructure.

I agree.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

HST speeds apply to trains permitted to use MU or SP differentials.

Since when? Our non-yaw damper fitted 156s can only use SP restrictions but not HST, there are a few places on our routes where our drivers have to be on the ball if they have a 156
vice 158 (which can use the HST differential).

My comment was based on what I was told by someone who I understood to have considerable experience and expertise in this area. It is now obvious this was not the case!With hindsight I should perhaps have framed this as a question rather than a statement.

It can take months for the Sectional Appendix to be updated whereas gauging restrictions can be lifted overnight so the SOC always takes precedence, otherwise there would be unacceptable delays in bringing new stock into service.

That is somewhat of a problem considering it is technically the bible of infrastructure.

The two Service SOCs I quoted were both December 2019 issue so the timeframe would appear to be more than adequate to have updated the Sectional Appendix.

 

[The Planner]

My comment was based on what I was told by someone who I understood to have considerable experience and expertise in this area. It is now obvious this was not the case!With hindsight I should perhaps have framed this as a question rather than a statement.



The two Service SOCs I quoted were both December 2019 issue so the timeframe would appear to be more than adequate to have updated the Sectional Appendix.

The problem being is that people aren't telling others about the information. You normally cannot change the SA without a Network Change either. The process falls over all the time.

 

[hexagon789]

Since when? Our non-yaw damper fitted 156s can only use SP restrictions but not HST, there are a few places on our routes where our drivers have to be on the ball if they have a 156 vice 158 (which can use the HST differential).

156s are permitted to use HST speeds in Scotland, there is a note in the sectional appendix to that effect.

 

[HSP 2]

So back to the point,397s are only allowed to do 110 mph on the part of the W.C.M.L. that they run on? So is there anywhere that they can run at 125mph?

 

[hexagon789]

So back to the point,397s are only allowed to do 110 mph on the part of the W.C.M.L. that they run on? So is there anywhere that they can run at 125mph?

Not presently

 

[Cheshire Scot]

So back to the point,397s are only allowed to do 110 mph on the part of the W.C.M.L. that they run on? So is there anywhere that they can run at 125mph?

Not presently

Or, not presently on the routes they operate on, but they could, if they were route cleared, on 125 sections of East Coast, (and wired parts) of Midland and Great Western main lines, also under MU differential between Wolverhampton and Stafford, so if redeployed at some point in the future their 125 capability might be used. Or if there was a relaxation of line speeds on WCML as had been talked of previously.

 

[hexagon789]

Or, not presently on the routes they operate on, but they could, if they were route cleared, on 125 sections of East Coast, (and wired parts) of Midland and Great Western main lines, also under MU differential between Wolverhampton and Stafford, so if redeployed at some point in the future their 125 capability might be used. Or if there was a relaxation of line speeds on WCML as had been talked of previously.

I just assumed they meant is there anywhere they can presently run at 125mph

 

[drb61]

This thread begs the question of why TPX didn't procure tilting stock for their Glasgow and Edinburgh services in the first place, given that about 90% of their route is over the WCML.

 

[hexagon789]

This thread begs the question of why TPX didn't procure tilting stock for their Glasgow and Edinburgh services in the first place, given that about 90% of their route is over the WCML.

Cost and logistics of putting the first new tilting stock in almost 20 years into service coupled with higher leasing and track access charges measured against only relatively modest timing savings that would derive?

 

[Mikey C]

This thread begs the question of why TPX didn't procure tilting stock for their Glasgow and Edinburgh services in the first place, given that about 90% of their route is over the WCML.

Or just bought more standard 110mph units, thus avoiding the loss of capacity where passengers can't sit in the ends of the unit?

 

[hexagon789]

Or just bought more standard 110mph units, thus avoiding the loss of capacity where passengers can't sit in the ends of the unit?

Or just bought more standard 110mph units, thus avoiding the loss of capacity where passengers can't sit in the ends of the unit?

I thought that didn't affect the 397s?

 

[nlogax]

This thread begs the question of why TPX didn't procure tilting stock for their Glasgow and Edinburgh services in the first place, given that about 90% of their route is over the WCML.

Gareth Dennis wrote a good piece about this some time ago. Long story short; Class 397 acceleration profile + WCML 125mph testing determined that tilt wasn't required.

https://garethdennis.medium.com/is-the-end-already-in-sight-for-britains-tilting-trains-b6ebb496433c

You might not have noticed, but the first of TransPennine Express’s new Class 397 and Class 802 trains have been running up and down the West Coast Mainline (WCML) north of Preston at speeds of up to 125mph without any tilting capability at all.

This is exciting for a few reasons, but it also raises a few questions. How are these new trains managing without tilt? If they can do it, why do we need tilt in the first place? Does this mean the end for tilt on Britain’s railways?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Gareth Dennis wrote a good piece about this some time ago. Long story short; Class 397 acceleration profile + WCML 125mph testing determined that tilt wasn't required.

https://garethdennis.medium.com/is-the-end-already-in-sight-for-britains-tilting-trains-b6ebb496433c

You might not have noticed, but the first of TransPennine Express’s new Class 397 and Class 802 trains have been running up and down the West Coast Mainline (WCML) north of Preston at speeds of up to 125mph without any tilting capability at all.

This is exciting for a few reasons, but it also raises a few questions. How are these new trains managing without tilt? If they can do it, why do we need tilt in the first place? Does this mean the end for tilt on Britain’s railways?

Despite the below quote from that Dec 2019 article 125mph with an empty train under test conditions has not translated into passenger service - or at least no yet.
'If all goes to plan, then the WCML north of Preston should be signed-off for 125mph without tilt in the middle of next year.'

I wasn't aware 802s had run at 125 north of Preston (did they?), although they did do test runs at 125 between Crewe and Weaver Junction - I went out close to midnight to see one of the Doncaster to Crewe positioning moves at Cheadle Hulme only to find it had been turned back en-route on the night in question.

 

[185143]

Despite the below quote from that Dec 2019 article 125mph with an empty train under test conditions has not translated into passenger service - or at least no yet.
'If all goes to plan, then the WCML north of Preston should be signed-off for 125mph without tilt in the middle of next year.'

I wasn't aware 802s had run at 125 north of Preston (did they?), although they did do test runs at 125 between Crewe and Weaver Junction - I went out close to midnight to see one of the Doncaster to Crewe positioning moves at Cheadle Hulme only to find it had been turned back en-route on the night in question.

There has been at least one test run with an 802. I heard rumours of the last Edinburgh-Manchester WCML service becoming an 802 diagram a year or so ago, though it never happened.

 

[driver9000]

Or just bought more standard 110mph units, thus avoiding the loss of capacity where passengers can't sit in the ends of the unit?

There is passenger accomodation right behind the cab in coach A (standard). It's 8 flip up seats, standing space and cycle storage while at the other end the galley kitchen is behind the cab.

 

[Western Lord]

This thread begs the question of why TPX didn't procure tilting stock for their Glasgow and Edinburgh services in the first place, given that about 90% of their route is over the WCML.

Because tilt has no long term future on the WCML. Principal services north of Preston will be non-tilting HS2 sets. As much of the line as possible will be cleared for non-tilt 125mph, and please remember that tilt is solely for passenger comfort, if you don't mind your coffee flying all over the place they could do 125mph now.

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

As a related side point, are these the first electric trains in the UK to be designed for 125 max speed through and through? I believe every other electric UK train capable of 125 was designed for 140 in some way.

 

[supervc-10]

As a related side point, are these the first electric trains in the UK to be designed for 125 max speed through and through? I believe every other electric UK train capable of 125 was designed for 140 in some way.

The only other thing I can think of is the 89? Wiki says it was designed for 125 although only used at 110 in service.

The only other 125 loco is the 91, which was designed for 140mph, and units like the 370, 373, 390, 395, 801 are all 140 mph designs.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that this thread is for the discussion of running the Class 397 at 125mph.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else not covered elsewhere they are of course welcome to start a new thread.

Thanks

 

[Jamesrob637]

I keep remembering the conversation I had with a Schaffner (train conductor) on board an ICE from Nürnberg to München back in 2018. He explained that while the scheduled speed from Nürnberg to Ingolstadt was 250kmh, the ICE was permitted to speed up to 280kmh in case of delays. Mind you, the track is much straighter!

Given that delays are quite common north of Preston, could the 397s be adapted to go at 125 if running late?

 

[supervc-10]

It's not the train that can't do 125- it's that the speed limit for non-tilting stock is 110. Apparently the plans to increase the speed limits for non-tilting stock have been ditched.

I do wonder though once HS2 is completed if there won't be improvements in the speed north of Preston.

 

[edwin_m]

It's not the train that can't do 125- it's that the speed limit for non-tilting stock is 110. Apparently the plans to increase the speed limits for non-tilting stock have been ditched.

I do wonder though once HS2 is completed if there won't be improvements in the speed north of Preston.

Is there any source for it having been ditched?

One of the straighter sections of the WCML is actually between Wigan and Preston, where there doesn't appear to be any geometric reason not to go faster at least, though of course that's only applicable to the Liverpools plus whatever speed the Manchesters can get to north of Euxton. There's also the section around Lockerbie where Branson was talking about running Pendolinos at 135 so there's probably scope to run non-tilt stock a bit faster as well. There are also straight bit through Kingmoor and between Preston and Lancaster.

 

[Ianno87]

Is there any source for it having been ditched?

One of the straighter sections of the WCML is actually between Wigan and Preston, where there doesn't appear to be any geometric reason not to go faster at least,

Though with the curve through Wigan and slow speed through Preston, you'll be lucky to sustain much better between the two than today- especially with the climb out of Wigan holding back top-end acceleration a little.

 

[The Planner]

Is there any source for it having been ditched?

It isnt ditched, paused is probably the word for it. HS2 were looking at it but haven't discounted it that I know of.

 

[hexagon789]

Given that delays are quite common north of Preston, could the 397s be adapted to go at 125 if running late?

I suppose that potentially if they sign off 110+ limits without tilt north of Preston AND don't tighten the schedules then you could have such a scenario but I don't see that happening, I'm sure they would tighten up the timetable as well to take benefit