Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[theironroad]

Considering Bournemouth's depot is going to maintain the 442s again, I can't for the life of me understand why they didn't just reintroduce them for London to Weymouth fast services and then run the London to Weymouth semi fast services with 442s and 444s. The excess 444s (all refurbished) could then go onto pompey fast services which I believe would satisfy the long standing demands of Pompey line commuters for 2+2 seating (though less seats overall compared to a 12-450 I think).

 

[class387]

Considering Bournemouth's depot is going to maintain the 442s again, I can't for the life of me understand why they didn't just reintroduce them for London to Weymouth fast services and then run the London to Weymouth semi fast services with 442s and 444s. The excess 444s (all refurbished) could then go onto pompey fast services which I believe would satisfy the long standing demands of Pompey line commuters for 2+2 seating (though less seats overall compared to a 12-450 I think).

Isn't there a problem regarding running 10 car 442s west of Poole? This might be the issue, given that someone said that SWR don't want to run 5 car 442 formations.

 

[theironroad]

Isn't there a problem regarding running 10 car 442s west of Poole? This might be the issue, given that someone said that SWR don't want to run 5 car 442 formations.

If only running 10 car formations, then electrical supply west of Poole could be an issue. I'm guessing that the reason then they only want to run 10 car rather than attaching/detaching during the day is that, unless they are also changing all the couplers and pipes, they will need to train up a whole load of station staff to perform the shunters role which I'm guessing swr don't want to do.

 

[D365]

Am I right in saying that the 442s will be converted to mechanical Dellner couplers?

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps SWR want to use their best stock on their flagship route, ie 444s to Weymouth, and the second hand old tat on the Portsmouth direct?

Maybe the fleet numbers allow for a simple and straightforward ‘all Portsmouth fasts are 442s’.

 

[Monty]

Am I right in saying that the 442s will be converted to mechanical Dellner couplers?

No, they will retain their original couplings.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No, they will retain their original couplings.

That’s silly of SWR. If they were modified to couple to 444/450s in an emergency it would be helpful.

 

[Helvellyn]

I think there could be a few reasons for using the 442s on the Portsmouth fast (i.e. 1Pxx/1Gxx services): -

• It can be done with 18 units, on self-contained diagrams and with a limited number of depots trained up - using them on the mainline could cause issues in disruption if crews get displaced (i.e. crew changes are likely in the main at Waterloo/Fratton/Portsmouth Harbour).
• A 10-car 442 will have more capacity than a 10-car 444. This is important where you are replacing 12-car 450s with 10-car 442s - still a drop in capacity but less of a gap than if using a 10-car 444. Once of the reasons SWT withdrew the 442s in 2007 was that they had to increase capacity on the Portsmouth route to meet the ITT, so retaining 458s cascading 450s/444s and withdrawing 442s was the way they did it.
  • Unfortunately, as per the franchise agreement it will only be three more Standard Class seats (336 v 333) but more standing room - 176 passengers v 154. That is still 48 seats less in a 10-car 442 than a 12-car 450, but without the dreaded middle seats that are often not used. However, also officially slightly more standing space (352 v 327).
• Simpler operation - as others have said the 442s will operate in pairs for redundancy and reduce the risk of a failure causing massive disruption. The revised timetable proposals for December 2018 will see the vast majority of Weymouth services operating as a 10-car 444 but dividing on route, either at Southampton or Bournemouth. Pre-2007 didn't quite have enough 442s to operate all the Poole/Weymouth services with them (there was a peak working each way that was a 10-car 444), so once they went two an hour to Weymouth dropping 442s became even more appealing. Use 442s on the mainline and as with the crew issues, disruption could cause issues if a 5-car 442 turned up at Bournemouth/Weymouth to try join to a 5-car 444.

So all in all putting the 442s on the Portsmouth Direct makes sense.

 

[cjmillsnun]

If only running 10 car formations, then electrical supply west of Poole could be an issue. I'm guessing that the reason then they only want to run 10 car rather than attaching/detaching during the day is that, unless they are also changing all the couplers and pipes, they will need to train up a whole load of station staff to perform the shunters role which I'm guessing swr don't want to do.

That’s the case with the DC motors but the new AC traction package should use less power.

 

[D365]

That’s the case with the DC motors but the new AC traction package should use less power.

It'll depend how significant the reduction is. Comparing traction data between the DC and AC motor specifications should be interesting nonetheless.

 

[swt_passenger]

That’s the case with the DC motors but the new AC traction package should use less power.

It’s not likely to use much less than the AC tractioned 444s. They (444s) are also having their software changed to allow the same performance as a 12 car 450. I’d expect the AC motored 442s to have similar power as a 12 car 450 for performance reasons on their shared routes as well, it would be odd not to do so.

Hence as 10 car 442s they are still highly likely going to be barred west of Poole as they were before.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are the retractioned 442s likely to make the same noise as the retractioned 455s then?

Also if the 444s are going AC will they now sound like 350s? I hope not!

 

[hexagon789]

Are the retractioned 442s likely to make the same noise as the retractioned 455s then?

Also if the 444s are going AC will they now sound like 350s? I hope not!

The 444s already have a.c. motors , ditto the 450s.

 

[Class465fan]

Are the retractioned 442s likely to make the same noise as the retractioned 455s then?

Also if the 444s are going AC will they now sound like 350s? I hope not!

What are you on about? They both have the same motors do they not?

 

[Wychwood93]

It’s not likely to use much less than the AC tractioned 444s. They (444s) are also having their software changed to allow the same performance as a 12 car 450. I’d expect the AC motored 442s to have similar power as a 12 car 450 for performance reasons on their shared routes as well, it would be odd not to do so.

Hence as 10 car 442s they are still highly likely going to be barred west of Poole as they were before.

As Helvellyn said in #2107 the splits will be at Southampton and Bournemouth - traction current west of Poole does not, except under exceptional circumstances, allow a 10-car - too little current provided when it was initially done. Given the number of passengers west of Poole it is unlikely that the money that could be spent (some may say should have been) to upgrade would meet a suitable cost/benefit ratio. The two ph retained after December twixt Poole and Weymouth should be fine - a veer off post there, sorry.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What are you on about? They both have the same motors do they not?

You know when they change sound at 20mph? The overhead wire Desiros make a different sound there to the ones on third rail.

 

[hexagon789]

What are you on about? They both have the same motors do they not?

Yep, 3-phase a.c. motors, same as the 450s.

I think it's confusion between a.c. and d.c. motors and a.c. and d.c. electrification, which is easily done tbh

 

[swt_passenger]

What are you on about? They both have the same motors do they not?

The Desiro traction converters use different switching frequencies when running in the DC area compared to under the wires, which affects the sound heard, but yes they are the same motors, and for the short period when some 350/1s operated on the WLL route they sounded identical to 450s.

 

[100andthirty]

What are you on about? They both have the same motors do they not?

class 444 is a 5 car set of 23m vehicles. It would have inferior performance compared with the class 450 which has 4 x 20 m vehicles. From the information around in the internet, the total power of all 8 class 450 motors is 2050hp and class 444 is 2650HP.

 

[hexagon789]

The Desiro traction converters use different switching frequencies when running in the DC area compared to under the wires, which affects the sound heard, but yes they are the same motors, and for the short period when some 350/1s operated on the WLL route they sounded identical to 450s.

Wasn't aware of that, interesting. I've never been to SWT land anyway.

 

[hexagon789]

class 444 is a 5 car set of 23m vehicles. It would have inferior performance compared with the class 450 which has 4 x 20 m vehicles. From the information around in the internet, the total power of all 8 class 450 motors is 2050hp and class 444 is 2650HP.

The company which owns them says 250kW motors for both.

 

[Monty]

That’s silly of SWR. If they were modified to couple to 444/450s in an emergency it would be helpful.

Unless you know how feasible it is to change the conventional coupling to something like a dellner, that's a rather bold statement to make. SWR and the leasing company may have well looked at this and decided against it. A far more prudent move would be to lease/hire a couple of 73s to act as rescue locos berthed at strategic locations like Woking or Fratton.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Aw, I'd love to see 442s travelling between Poole-Weymouth again, even if it is just the odd one. They are no strangers down this way!

The 442s, as with 444s, must be 5-car for this section so it would be great if one Waterloo-Weymouth service were occasionally served by 442s then 10-car 442s (same as with the Portsmouth Direct) could go down to Southampton/Bournemouth and divide there like they used to before the 444s replaced them?

As for the 442s based at Bournemouth, I understand there are plans for them to be moved to Fratton before entering service by December, if these are ready by then!

 

[swt_passenger]

Wasn't aware of that, interesting. I've never been to SWT land anyway.

It’s basically because in DC areas the usual track circuits use AC at certain discrete frequencies, and the traction converters keep away from those frequencies and their harmonics to limit mutual interference. On the AC railway the track circuits superimpose DC.

So it’s all down to the requirements of associated signalling equipment rather than directly due to the power supply method.

 

[D365]

That’s silly of SWR. If they were modified to couple to 444/450s in an emergency it would be helpful.

Unless you know how feasible it is to change the conventional coupling to something like a dellner, that's a rather bold statement to make. SWR and the leasing company may have well looked at this and decided against it. A far more prudent move would be to lease/hire a couple of 73s to act as rescue locos berthed at strategic locations like Woking or Fratton.

I believe the 458/5s were changed to Dellners, but in that instance the engineering required would have been far simpler. My original comment was down to me misremembering past forum speculation.

 

[Monty]

Aw, I'd love to see 442s travelling between Poole-Weymouth again, even if it is just the odd one. They are no strangers down this way!

The 442s, as with 444s, must be 5-car for this section so it would be great if one Waterloo-Weymouth service were occasionally served by 442s then 10-car 442s (same as with the Portsmouth Direct) could go down to Southampton/Bournemouth and divide there like they used to before the 444s replaced them?

As for the 442s based at Bournemouth, I understand there are plans for them to be moved to Fratton before entering service by December, if these are ready by then!

Keep dreaming, it's unlikely to happen. Units will be stabled at Fratton (unlikely to be all of them though) with Bournemouth taking care of maintenance.

I believe the 458/5s were changed to Dellners, but in that instance the engineering required would have been far simpler. My original comment was down to me misremembering past forum speculation.

The 458s would of been easier to do considering the train already had a TMS and didn't use conventional air brake hoses and electrical cables. The 442s on the other hand do.

 

[hexagon789]

It’s basically because in DC areas the usual track circuits use AC at certain discrete frequencies, and the traction converters keep away from those frequencies and their harmonics to limit mutual interference. On the AC railway the track circuits superimpose DC.

So it’s all down to the requirements of associated signalling equipment rather than directly due to the power supply method.

It makes perfect sense when you explain it, but at first it seems strange that the same motors on the same train can sound so different.

Any news on which motors the 442s are getting? Same type as the 350/444/450s?

 

[swt_passenger]

Aw, I'd love to see 442s travelling between Poole-Weymouth again, even if it is just the odd one. They are no strangers down this way!

As for the 442s based at Bournemouth, I understand there are plans for them to be moved to Fratton before entering service by December, if these are ready by then!

They won’t normally go to Weymouth, for reasons given already in this and previous threads. They don’t have enough. Please get over it.
Stabling and heavy maintenance locations can be different, and often are. Normal overnight stabling and minor maintenance at Fratton doesn’t imply they won’t go to Bournemouth ever. You are possibly aware that 455s and 158s and 159s can and do visit Bournemouth.

 

[swt_passenger]

Any news on which motors the 442s are getting? Same type as the 350/444/450s?

No details published as far as I know. Same ‘traction package’ manufacturer as the 455s, Kiepe Electric, as announced a while ago by SWR, but the motor itself is probably just a bought in component of that.

 

[hexagon789]

No details published as far as I know. Same ‘traction package’ manufacturer as the 455s, Kiepe Electric, as announced a while ago by SWR, but the motor itself is probably just a bought in component of that.

I would imagine a bit more powerful than the 455s, takes a good bit of oomph to lug 5 coaches at 100!

Presumably it's most components bar the motors.